70 réponses à ce sujet

[saladinbob]

Except isn't that choice just a Paragon/Renegade choice but without the numbers?

 

In ME both Paragon & Renegade choices can backfire on you, you just don't see it until the next game. Saving the Rachni Queen or giving the Collector Base to Cerberus are examples of this. 

 

Now, I don't think BioWare does this often enough so I'd like more of it, but your point is more about consequences rather than a morality system. 

 

Not really, it's a personal choice. You might think it's the Paragon thing to do to help, someone else might think it's the Paragon thing to do to not help. It's a blurring of ethics. Do no harm. Do no harm by not doing anything or do no harm by attempting to help? Paragon and Renegade decisions are the writers telling you what is good and what is bad, not your own conscience.

[BabyPuncher]

Not really, it's a personal choice. You might think it's the Paragon thing to do to help, someone else might think it's the Paragon thing to do to not help. It's a blurring of ethics. Do no harm. Do no harm by not doing anything or do no harm by attempting to help? Paragon and Renegade decisions are the writers telling you what is good and what is bad, not your own conscience.

 

That's the entire point of stories.

 

For the narrator to enunciate a truth for the audience. To 'tell' them something that's true. Something's that's right.

 

The game does not magically grow an arm, put a gun to your head and force you to agree. You're entirely free to think that what the narrator says about good and evil is completely stupid. You always are.

[LinksOcarina]

Mass Effect 1 did this the best in my opinion. Investing in both Paragon and Regenade trees gave you all the Charm and Intimidate options in the game and didn't lock you out of picking either just because you didn't pick enough Charm and Intimidate options previously.

 

The only real problem with this is you needed to powergame the free points you get in each new game if you didn't want to lose out on points to improve you other talents, but if you don't have a problem with doing that or just maxing the Paragon and Regenade trees as you level up it's all good.

 

Which was the flaw. So much so, I exploited a bug on Noveria to get infinite paragon and renegade points. 

 

I think a combination of the interrupts found in 2 and 3, combined with the dialogue wheel progression seen in Inquisition is the best bet for this. Show the symbol in a dialogue option, and thats that. The gauge would be how folks react to you, similar to friendship and rivalry in Dragon Age II, which I feel is the best bet to go.

 

Just don't show it. 

[Dabrikishaw]

Which was the flaw. So much so, I exploited a bug on Noveria to get infinite paragon and renegade points. 

 

I think a combination of the interrupts found in 2 and 3, combined with the dialogue wheel progression seen in Inquisition is the best bet for this. Show the symbol in a dialogue option, and thats that. The gauge would be how folks react to you, similar to friendship and rivalry in Dragon Age II, which I feel is the best bet to go.

 

Just don't show it. 

As I said earlier, the points in Mass Effect 1 don't influence your success with Charm/Intimidate options. All they can do is give a limited amount of free points in the Paragon/Renegade tree, which isn't the same as needing a high amount of Paragon/Renegade points to pick the Blue and Red options like it was in Mass Effect 2.

 

Exploiting it to gain free points is also something I mentioned as being possible and up to the player. Frankly, all morality systems are exploitable in some way when taking about the mass effect series. All 3 games had ways to cheat the system, so all 3 have the same flaw. Andromeda will have to make damn sure that flaw doesn't show up.

[LinksOcarina]

As I said earlier, the points in Mass Effect 1 don't influence your success with Charm/Intimidate options. All they can do is give a limited amount of free points in the Paragon/Renegade tree, which isn't the same as needing a high amount of Paragon/Renegade points to pick the Blue and Red options like it was in Mass Effect 2.

 

Exploiting it to gain free points is also something I mentioned as being possible and up to the player. Frankly, all morality systems are exploitable in some way when taking about the mass effect series. All 3 games had ways to cheat the system, so all 3 have the same flaw. Andromeda will have to make damn sure that flaw doesn't show up.

 

See, I did the exploit to have all options available to me. I think that should be the way to go, to have things always available to you, and based such morality and your actions regarding how your squadmates react to it.

 

Thats me though. 

[AlanC9]

That's the entire point of stories.
 
For the narrator to enunciate a truth for the audience. To 'tell' them something that's true. Something's that's right.

A truth? Why can't the author want to tell the audience a comforting lie?

[Drone223]

That's the entire point of stories.

 

For the narrator to enunciate a truth for the audience. To 'tell' them something that's true. Something's that's right.

 

The game does not magically grow an arm, put a gun to your head and force you to agree. You're entirely free to think that what the narrator says about good and evil is completely stupid. You always are.

Except people should make choices based on their own judgement rather than a simplistic/arbitrary morality system because in real life things are never simple as they look.

[Sanunes]

See, I did the exploit to have all options available to me. I think that should be the way to go, to have things always available to you, and based such morality and your actions regarding how your squadmates react to it.

 

Thats me though. 

 

Not just you, I have always disliked having choices locked away from me.  From Mass Effect 1 where the dialogue was locked out because I didn't spend enough skill points or Mass Effect 2 or 3 by not picking enough of the Paragon/Renegade choices.

 

To me the entire Paragon/Renegade system was broken from the very start of the first game and we were stuck with it because they were continuing the story of Shepard.  If I had to have an ideal solution it would be that they wouldn't lock any choice out of what we were able to say or do, but have NPC's react to those choices.  If you were acting a certain way for a while in the game and presented a choice and answered it in a fashion opposite of how you have been acting the NPC could react skeptically to what you are saying.

 

The only thing I think BioWare really needs to do is to hide the system from us completely by not having a meter and removing options over graying them out.

[Valkyrja]

The only thing I think BioWare really needs to do is to hide the system from us completely by not having a meter and removing options over graying them out.

 

Or they could let you try the charm/intimidate options and fail.

[BabyPuncher]

Except people should make choices based on their own judgement rather than a simplistic/arbitrary morality system because in real life things are never simple as they look.

 

I just acknowledged that.

 

You are completely entitled to choice of deciding whether, yep, the narrator is right and this really is a good choice, or nope, the narrator is wrong and stupid and this isn't good at all. Nobody has ever done anything to limit your ability to do so.

[Sanunes]

Or they could let you try the charm/intimidate options and fail.

 

I never thought of that, but it would work as well.

[Drone223]

I just acknowledged that.

 

You are completely entitled to choice of deciding whether, yep, the narrator is right and this really is a good choice, or nope, the narrator is wrong and stupid and this isn't good at all. Nobody has ever done anything to limit your ability to do so.

No you didn't, you suggested that players should be told which choice is right or wrong that doesn't encourage players using their judgement. In order for players to use their judgement the choices will have to be ambiguous as the players doesn't know which choice is the right one and has no morality associated with any of them.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Every time someone refers to Paragon/Renegade as morality or good and evil, I seriously question if they've played the game before.

[Indigenous]

I would prefer if reputation was based on what you did during a mission. Curing the genophage cannot really be considered good or bad, paragon or renegade. The Krogans would love you for it but the rest of the galaxy would not. That's the sort of reputation system I would like to see in game. One that simply reacts to your big decisions and not your comments.

 

Remove paragon and renegade for good. Have persuasion options be unlocked through some other means like in DA:I or something you can spend character points on.

And this. ^

[Indigenous]

Every time someone refers to Paragon/Renegade as morality or good and evil, I seriously question if they've played the game before.

 

What's this based on? They are simple choices which I find can be easily identified as good or bad. The Paragon and Renegade choices are normally opposites of one another.

 

 

Reputation carries a Paragon or Renegade connotation. Paragon actions are usually about building alliances, obeying galactic law, and basing decisions on sympathy and trust. Renegade actions usually involve a pragmatic, results-focused approach, breaking laws or taking extreme steps as required to get the job done.

...

How does it work?

Over the course of the game, your reputation will increase. Sometimes it will increase in Paragon ways, sometimes it will increase in Renegade ways, and sometimes it will increase without being Paragon or Renegade.

• Confronted on the Citadel by a desperate refugee with a gun, you give her some credits and help her find a place to sleep. (Paragon)
• As a human colony falls to Reaper forces, you order down an orbital strike, brutally killing thousands of colonists to prevent the Reapers from turning them into husks. (Renegade)
• You land at a turian fuel depot taken by Reaper forces and clear it out, enabling allied forces to keep fighting. (General Reputation)

http://blog.bioware....-mass-effect-3/

 

[Patchwork]

If they choose to go Paragon/Renegade again, which I feel they shouldn't, since it's outdated, same with SWTOR Dark Side/Light Side, yawn boring.

 

I figure just do Mass Effect 3 again, since IIRC, as long as the bar has a certain amount of fill in it, you can chose whichever coloured option you want.  Or at least I'm remembering ending the Geth/Quarian conflict with a renegade option even though I was mostly paragon.

 

Meh they're best off getting rid of that system, especially now looking at a decision like the Geth vs Quarian, where choosing between the two can't be defined as Paragon vs Renegade, either way you're killing a species.

 

The Light and Dark sides are such a huge part of Star Wars that it's the one game where I don't mind a morality meter. A bit pointless if you're not playing a Force user though. 

 

BW never seemed to make up their mind about what Paragon/Renegade actually means and I think it should just be scrapped. I could live with some sort of reputation meter, rumours spread about about the type of person you are based on how you handle things and sometimes that works in your favour and sometimes it doesn't. Red!Pathfinder is welcomed and given information practically for free by the Aria's of MEA while Blue has to bribe a guard, that sort of thing. Nothing that really effects a mission outcome but adds flavour and different ways to get there. 

[Phate Phoenix]

I'd like it if Paragon and Renegade became more of a flavor thing--akin to the personality types from DA2.* People react to the Protagonist as a Renegade or a Paragon, but the Protagonist (depending on their Charisma (?) level, I guess) has all options available to them instead of having them blocked. Like DA2, there could be moments in the game where the your character could change more easily (after main plots perhaps).

 

There's a part of me that wouldn't mind if some choices were blocked/only available because of being a Renegade or Paragon, so long as they were framed as a character actually pointing out that the Protagonist's reputation was why. On the other hand, that can be really annoying if it's not balanced well. [WEIGHS HANDS]

 

*(For those that didn't play Dragon Age 2: the main protagonist, Hawke, could have one of three personality types that was chosen by how which type of dialogue you chose: Diplomatic/Helpful, Sarcastic/Charming, and Aggressive/Direct. The personality gave Hawke a tone they used when engaging in auto-dialogue, and in some cases when other characters referred to Hawke, but rarely. At the beginning of each of DA2's main acts, the dialogue options were more weighted, giving you the opportunity to change Hawke's personality. Some dialogue options were locked to certain personality types, which did stifle some roleplaying opportunities. But I did like the idea of the personalities overall, and would like to see them return.)

[aCuteBrat2u]

I like the dialog wheel from DA:I.  It offered three ways to answer plus you could spend points on more options... ie, history, Nobel and so on.  The best thing about ME series is the story.  In my humble opinion, it IS the best RPG ever made as a true RPG.  My rage at the end of ME3 only validates to me that this was/is the best RPG out there.  However, if I get locked out of dialog AGAIN because I don't adhere to this P/R algorithm of bean counters, I think I might scream.  It was a useful tool that has grown beyond its need.

[Malanek]

Remove them completely from the game. They are not how you should handle those issues. Life is more complex than Paragon and Renegade decisions and so should the game. I'll give an example from The Witcher 3 and compare it to how Bioware does things. Don't read on if you haven't played that game and plan to do so.

 

Early in the game's prologue, you are offered a choice to help someone with a potion. This potion might heal, it might not. If Bioware was doing this it plays out like this: Paragon decision is give her the potion in an attempt to save her life. Renegade decision is withhold the potion and let her die.

 

CPRD's way of doing things is the choice is yours and you have to live with the consequences of that choice because much later in the game you'll face the consequences of that choice. The essence of what makes a person has gone from her. She's a walking vegetable. Rather than refusing to help and allowing her to die with dignity, you chose to help her and turned her in to a mindless husk. Was it the right thing to help? Should you not have interfered? The writers aren't about to answer that for you, that's something you'll have to decide yourself.

 

That's the kind of nuanced writing we should be getting. Not this Paragon/Renegade drivel.

I actually think you are misrepresenting or misunderstanding how the ME system works. The above scenerio certainly wouldn't fit in the ME Paragon/Renegade structure at all because, if I understand the situation, Geralt is trying to help the woman either way but the problem lies in knowing whether the potion will work or not. It's not a decision about morality at all!!! It's simply a judgement call about whether the potion will work or not. I haven't played the witcher 3 yet, but don't think this is a very good advertisement for it.

 

But on the actual subject of a morality system, I do prefer throwing it away altogether. Seeing consequences throughout the  game and in epilogue slides is enough for me. So many times when you made a decision in ME or other games with morality, it sometime doesn't seem to take in the players intent and simply looks at the result.

[RZIBARA]

Get rid of Paragon/renegade. 

 

Give the player a bunch of dialogue options that they can chose that arent related to a morality, and also get rid of the charm/intimidate options that are win buttons. Make it so that the only way you can convince someone about something is appealing to them through knowing their personality, etc.

[Isaidlunch]

I'm expecting it to be removed, it wasn't necessary at all in ME3 since most Charm/Intimidate options were already gated behind other criteria:

 

Spoiler

• Convincing Mordin/NotMordin to allow the sabotage being dependant on whether Wrex and Eve were alive
• Convincing the VS to stand down being dependant on a hidden points system based on multiple minor choices e.g. how well did you treat them, did Udina frame you
• Convincing the Quarians to stand down being dependant on hidden points system based on multiple minor choices e.g. what is Tali's standing with the Quarians, how did you resolve Legion's loyalty quest
• Anderson's survival being dependant on your EMS score

[Sylvius the Mad]

I hope they ditch paragon/renegade, or at least get back to the documented definitions of the two from ME1.

They weren't originally a morality scale. They were more law-chaos than good-evil. Paragon did things by the book. Renegade rejected authority.

I don’t want a morality scale at all. But the original paragon/renegade system would be fine.

[Khrystyn]

..... most Charm/Intimidate options (in ME3) were already gated behind other criteria:

 

I gave up trying to add my comments here. I wasn't able to be coherent.

[Sanunes]

I have not played ME3 yet, so if the desired outcomes are 'gated behind other criteria,' I assume by earlier choices that I might not even suspect, how am I to know which unknown criteria and choices I have to make so that Tali doesn't commit suicide on Rannoch?  I don't want to play totally in the blind when I desire to have certain outcomes in my playthrough, or be unable to make the choice at the critical moment. Am I to wait until masseffect.wikia publishes it, or play ME3 16x until I get the outcome I want?

 

Wouldn't it be more practical/desireable to have all dialog choices/decisions always available regardless of my prior decisions, so I can direct my character's outcomes? You helpful comments are appreciated.

 

The two major events Tali/Legion and Mordin/Wrex(or Wreave) aren't based purely on choices you have made during that one mission, but across both Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3. At the specific point in the game based on decisions across both games and the mission you are on will cause a final outcome to happen so you really never know what is influencing it.  They did do something in Dragon Age: Inquisition, but it was a lot more secondary then what happens in Mass Effect 3.

 

Edit:

 

I remembered it wrong, the harder part of getting a treaty is based across multiple games.  You can pick what you want to happen with a final dialogue.

Modifié par Sanunes, 29 juin 2015 - 04:12 .

[KaiserShep]

Get rid of Paragon/renegade. 

 

Give the player a bunch of dialogue options that they can chose that arent related to a morality, and also get rid of the charm/intimidate options that are win buttons. Make it so that the only way you can convince someone about something is appealing to them through knowing their personality, etc.

 

I wouldn't mind having something like DA:O's cunning, which unlocks special dialogue. One of the finer moments when this is used is dealing with fake Waylon in Genitivi's house. You start catching him in his lie until he attacks. It was pretty amusing.