401 réponses à ce sujet

[Vapaa]

It doesn't really make the ending better. It's just Bioware all of a sudden being all "wait this is a srs issue look!!"

 

The ending is an unsalvageable trainwreck but at least the game now acknowledged it, that's something.

[DarthLaxian]

Culture doesn't disappear because a civilization evolves. Leaving it behind and running away from it is a different matter entirely. 

 

 

Post-ME3 wasn't a necessity.

 

Yes it was - at least if you wanted to tell a big story again (if they had done a prequel we would have known too much already IMHO and so the story couldn't be big (as nothing could really be changed!) and if they let it run at the same time as the invasion you face the same problem (you can't make a difference really, as we already know how **** goes down!))

 

greetings LAX

[sjsharp2011]

 

 

 

It'll be pretty awesome if Bioware can manage to do it

 

 

Yeah it would it would make some of the idea's about having Tress FX style hair or whatever the Nvidia version is and such sound good as well. If they can pull it off and do it well that is. I'm not jumping to conclusions but if it's true this could work well for the game. 

[CronoDragoon]

It doesn't really make the ending better. It's just Bioware all of a sudden being all "wait this is a srs issue look!!"

 

Eh, I think it does. Particularly, the combination of Leviathan and the EC recontextualizes the Catalyst from "immortal AI God who may or may not be a mouthpiece for the writers" to "badly programmed AI made by a super-race that are nevertheless arrogant idiots." It plays in well to the game's examination of the birth and perpetuation of cycles.

[KaiserShep]

Eh, I think it does. Particularly, the combination of Leviathan and the EC recontextualizes the Catalyst from "immortal AI God who may or may not be a mouthpiece for the writers" to "badly programmed AI made by a super-race that are nevertheless arrogant idiots." It plays in well to the game's examination of the birth and perpetuation of cycles.

I just regret that we can't discuss possibly striking the Leviathan after the war.

[AlanC9]

Eh, I think it does. Particularly, the combination of Leviathan and the EC recontextualizes the Catalyst from "immortal AI God who may or may not be a mouthpiece for the writers" to "badly programmed AI made by a super-race that are nevertheless arrogant idiots." It plays in well to the game's examination of the birth and perpetuation of cycles.

I guess I didn't see this as a change because I always saw it as the latter case.

[Felps Cross]

As far as the Milky Way... What left is there to really see at this point? Why hold on to it?

 

Well, actually, there is a massive number of relays in the milky way that are dormant and unmapped (codex). That was how the rachni were found and how their war started. There is potential in the MW, even though I prefer the new Andromeda idea.

 

And btw, we love our companions and all our Shepards. We just wanted more. In the future maybe.

[Iakus]

 
Show me where that's been confirmed. All we know is that we're in the Andromeda galaxy. Whether or not we have the ability to travel intergalactically is speculation.

Umm.  It's set in Andromeda.  Unless there's some really coincidental parallel evolution going on, somebody travelled intergalactically at some point.

 

Except that it isn't. It's easier only in the sense that there are gibberish Macguffins that led you avoid physics. But a gibberish Macguffin can get everyone to Andromeda as easily.

And that's really really bad writing.  

 

As I said (repeatedly) hard science isn't the issue.  Internal consistency is.  Yes we have FTL engines and they operate on principles that don't actually exist in science today.  But they do operate on their own internal rules specific to this setting.  These rules make it pretty much impossible to travel to other galaxies.

 

Hand waving these rules away with a "gibberish Macguffin" just because they have become inconvenient is, again, really really bad writing.  It was bad with the Lazarus Project.  It was bad with the Catalyst.  It will be bad with traveling to Andromeda unless there is a consistent, lore-friendly way to go about it.  And past performance has made me extremely pessimistic on the odds of that happening.

[KaiserShep]

Rules are sort of flexible in certain ways when dealing with a setting in which technology is significantly advanced. Like, for instance, a fictional setting where people fly around with pre-war biplanes isn't going to also have supersonic air travel.

[Iakus]

You're conflating the fact that all of the science in ME that allows for space travel is gibberish with more concrete things like the way that gibberish is introduced and the themes it represents.

Coming up with a new way to travel isn't an issue for the lore unless - for reasons largely of incompetence - Bioware contradicts their basic (and already somewhat contradictory) rules and lore.

The ME3 ending doesn't fail because of space magic, as much as people want to joke about it. The entire setting is space magic. FTL? Space magic. Alien races? Space magic. Universal translator? Space magic. Mass effect fields? Space magic. Element zero? Space magic. Quarian immunology? Double space magic.

ME3s ending fails because it combines a tone shift (getting trolled by Harbinger launching an orbital nuke at you when the entire series you've survived these, including on Rannoch) and thematic inconsistent nonsense (synthetic vs. organic war).

And I have little confidence that Bioware will come up with a means that is consistent with the lore.  As you have already pointed out, they have already freely butchered it whenever it got in the way of the story they wanted to tell.

 

ME3's ending fails for many reasons.  Tonal and thematic as you have already pointed out.  But also consistency.  Such as the Catalyst being on the Citadel the whole time.  "Organic energy" and such.  It failed on many levels.

 

Soft science is one thing, but as long as it stays consistent, and follows the rules laid out for it (unless there is a logical, consistent way for it to break those rules) it can be forgiven.

 

An author’s ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic Sanderson's First Law of Magic

[In Exile]

Umm. It's set in Andromeda. Unless there's some really coincidental parallel evolution going on, somebody travelled intergalactically at some point.

And that's really really bad writing.

As I said (repeatedly) hard science isn't the issue. Internal consistency is. Yes we have FTL engines and they operate on principles that don't actually exist in science today. But they do operate on their own internal rules specific to this setting. These rules make it pretty much impossible to travel to other galaxies.

Hand waving these rules away with a "gibberish Macguffin" just because they have become inconvenient is, again, really really bad writing. It was bad with the Lazarus Project. It was bad with the Catalyst. It will be bad with traveling to Andromeda unless there is a consistent, lore-friendly way to go about it. And past performance has made me extremely pessimistic on the odds of that happening.

As I said further below on the last page: this gibberish is the foundation of the ME series. It was inconsistent nonsense from the first time "Mass Relay" and "Mass Effect fields" were mentioned. The Lazarus project wasn't any worse than quarian immunology or element zero. It's nonsense, sure. But it's exactly the same kind of nonsense that has been at the core of the series since the first cutscene of ME1.

There are no internal rules here. There is inconsistent gibberish. I don't know how you've come up with the incomprehensible conclusion that travel to another galaxy is impossible, but you are just wrong here.

Mass effect fields are space magic, like the force. They can do whatever the plot requires of them. If a precursor race created super mass effect fields that travel to other galaxies, then that makes as much sense as having the things in the first place.

[In Exile]

And I have little confidence that Bioware will come up with a means that is consistent with the lore. As you have already pointed out, they have already freely butchered it whenever it got in the way of the story they wanted to tell.

ME3's ending fails for many reasons. Tonal and thematic as you have already pointed out. But also consistency. Such as the Catalyst being on the Citadel the whole time. "Organic energy" and such. It failed on many levels.

Soft science is one thing, but as long as it stays consistent, and follows the rules laid out for it (unless there is a logical, consistent way for it to break those rules) it can be forgiven.

An author’s ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic Sanderson's First Law of Magic

Again, I don't disagree with you in the abstract. But 1) ME1 already failed here out of the gate and 2) inventing more ways to travel through space and saying "Mass Effect field" is basically consistent with the lore. Because space magic. The magic here is that only mass effect fields can allow for this type of travel. So long as Bioware invents a reason tied to that they're on solid footing.

The ME3 ending is inconsistent because synthesis is a new kind of space magic. But MEAs travel needn't be.

[Uccio]

I wouldn´t mind skipping Shepard in a post ME3 setting (though I would still like for him to have a closure), but I do mind running away from the milkyway. They should have just chosen destroy ending for canon and go with it. Easy.

[Iakus]

As I said further below on the last page: this gibberish is the foundation of the ME series. It was inconsistent nonsense from the first time "Mass Relay" and "Mass Effect fields" were mentioned. The Lazarus project wasn't any worse than quarian immunology or element zero. It's nonsense, sure. But it's exactly the same kind of nonsense that has been at the core of the series since the first cutscene of ME1.
 

I'm talking about consistent nonsense, though

 

 

 

There are no internal rules here. There is inconsistent gibberish. I don't know how you've come up with the incomprehensible conclusion that travel to another galaxy is impossible, but you are just wrong here.

 

How did I come up with it? Here's a hint:

 

Fifty Hours

 

 

Mass effect fields are space magic, like the force. They can do whatever the plot requires of them. If a precursor race created super mass effect fields that travel to other galaxies, then that makes as much sense as having the things in the first place.

Terrible, terrible writing.

 

Why didn't we just defeat the Reapers on giant space dragons?  How about Liara absorbing the Catalyst's soul with her and Shepard's unborn child?  Then no one would hav ehad to die!

[Steppenwolf]

Umm.  It's set in Andromeda.  Unless there's some really coincidental parallel evolution going on, somebody travelled intergalactically at some point.

Being in the Andromeda galaxy and having the ability to travel between galaxies are 2 different things. We could get there through a one-way wormhole. We could be transported there by unknown means.

[KaiserShep]

I wouldn´t mind skipping Shepard in a post ME3 setting (though I would still like for him to have a closure), but I do mind running away from the milkyway. They should have just chosen destroy ending for canon and go with it. Easy.

While I wouldn't mind that, that's mainly because I'm a hardcore destroyer that sees it as the One True Ending. I imagine we'd be right back where we started with upset fans. If you're gonna do it, you might as well do it to them all.

[Pasquale1234]

Shepard's done, whether s/he's retired or gone. And it's a great thing. Less baggage, the better.

I have my preferences about what to do with the Milky Way's end-states in a distant-future sequel, but sensitive canon/choice types aren't too fond of having their house of cards monkeyed around with.

So, to Andromeda we go.

Shepard isn't the only factor with baggage. Everything about TMW is infested with baggage galore.

Any sort of canonized state would de-value the trilogy. I expect I will continue to replay it from time to time, and any canonization of TMW would render additional playthroughs unsatisfying.
 

Fleeing from said problems they created also doesn't inspire much confidence that they've learned from their mistakes, because its going to catch up with them eventually.

Perhaps they don't view it as a mistake. They explored the themes they wanted to explore and told the stories they wanted to tell in that setting, and are moving on.
 

Andromeda may be hyped as a new frontier to explore, but it's pretty clear the real reason for going there: they broke the old setting, and are unwilling to admit it.

I'm pretty sure they knew they'd not be setting another game in TMW when they wrote ME3.
 

Well, except you have a much better chance of getting a crew there alive than to another galaxy.

I'm fairly confident that the crew will manage to make it to Andromeda. Whether you find the hows and whys palatable is, I guess, up to you.
 

Without Reapers or some other extinction cycle, Andromeda should be completely dominated by whatever their Leviathan analogues are.

It'll be populated by whatever species Bioware wants to tell stories about.

Even civilizations too advanced to be threatened by any outsider can wreck themselves from within.
 

The characters, the lore, the locations, all of it gone. This is a great example of the phrase "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".

It was all pretty much wrecked by the opening cutscenes of ME3. A lot of the characters are dead, the locations reduced to rubble. That tends to happen during a reaper invasion.

You can't go home. 'Familiar' locations would have changed so as to become unrecognizable, and revisiting them could be very disappointing.

I don't think I've ever played another game so devastating to the world and where I was given more extreme world-changing choices than ME3. It was apparent to me during my first playthrough that we'd never go there again.

[Steppenwolf]

I'm pretty sure they knew they'd not be setting another game in TMW when they wrote ME3.

You're giving them entirely to much credit. These are the people who decided "Yo dawg, I heard you didn't want to be killed by synthetics so I made some synthetics to kill you to keep synthetics from killing you" was a perfect ending.

[In Exile]

You're giving them entirely to much credit. These are the people who decided "Yo dawg, I heard you didn't want to be killed by synthetics so I made some synthetics to kill you to keep synthetics from killing you" was a perfect ending.

Let's be fair. They decided that was a perfect plot. The perfect ending was the blender of synthetic and organic life, because we all know a single sapient species has absolutely never made war on itself and there would be no danger of extinction at all in that case. That's why humanity has enjoyed an era of endless peace.

[Pasquale1234]

You're giving them entirely to much credit. These are the people who decided "Yo dawg, I heard you didn't want to be killed by synthetics so I made some synthetics to kill you to keep synthetics from killing you" was a perfect ending.

The two are related... how exactly?

You don't allow players to make such world-altering choices if you plan to build another story in that setting.

[In Exile]

The two are related... how exactly?

You don't allow players to make such world-altering choices if you plan to build another story in that setting.

I think the point being made is that a competently plotted game would anticipate that TMW would be dropped following RBG. But since RBG happened in the first place, we can mostly drop the idea that this is a competently plotted game.

[Pasquale1234]

I think the point being made is that a competently plotted game would anticipate that TMW would be dropped following RBG. But since RBG happened in the first place, we can mostly drop the idea that this is a competently plotted game.

Sorry - I still think it's apples and oranges.

The most brilliantly plotted storyline could end with the player making world-changing decisions in the final reel. And it doesn't take someone with competent plotting skills to understand that you can't set another tale in a world with multiple potential end states, all of which resulted in some level of striking of the set.

[Iakus]

 
I'm pretty sure they knew they'd not be setting another game in TMW when they wrote ME3.
 

I'm pretty sure thy weren't planning on making any Mass Effect games at all after ME3.

 

 

 

I'm fairly confident that the crew will manage to make it to Andromeda. Whether you find the hows and whys palatable is, I guess, up to you.

 

 

Something tells me it will be a wormhole, named the Galactic Gluteus.  Which should tell you what I think of the likely palatability 

 

 

 

It'll be populated by whatever species Bioware wants to tell stories about.
Even civilizations too advanced to be threatened by any outsider can wreck themselves from within.
 

Yeah that's what I'm afraid of.  It'll just be haphazard stuff brainstormed more for awesomeness than logic or consistency.

 

because a lot of civilizations can rise, fall and rise again in a billion years and still have time to be more advanced than the Reapers.

[Iakus]

Let's be fair. They decided that was a perfect plot. The perfect ending was the blender of synthetic and organic life, because we all know a single sapient species has absolutely never made war on itself and there would be no danger of extinction at all in that case. That's why humanity has enjoyed an era of endless peace.

Neither gives me any confidence that this Andromeda thing was thought out at all.  there is absolutely nothing here that makes me think we're jsut going to start the same old cycle in a new galaxy, and wreck that too.  then move on again like intergalactic locusts.

[Pasquale1234]

Yeah that's what I'm afraid of.  It'll just be haphazard stuff brainstormed more for awesomeness than logic or consistency.

Well - they do love their cutscenes, so naturally everything has to create drama. I've never been terribly fond of this marriage between RPG and cinema, but it is what it is - and it seems to be what a lot of people have come to expect at this point.