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Andromeda: Learn from past mistakes


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#1
saladinbob

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I've been banging on a lot about the next Mass Effect learning the lessons from previous Bioware games and giving the player consequences for their choices. The problem is that as I see it, Bioware games are not moving forward, not moving with the times. They lack innovation.

 

If you look at Mass Effect and Dragon Age Origins, they both have a series of small maps to discover with largely static NPCs. The NPCs never move, They remain where they are with some light animations representing conversations taking place. If you then fast forward to their last game, Dragon Age Inquisition, you have a series of large maps to discover with largely static NPCs that do not have any lives. They stand around in the same spot day after day, hour after hour.

 

- NPCs should have their own lives and routines.

- They should go to work, have lunch, go home, sleep.

- They should stop and talk to their neighbours, complain about the weather.

- They should comment on their environment including the protagonist and his/her party.

 

Similarly, if you look at the Normandy in all three Mass Effect games, the same people are at the same stations 24/7. They never move and have some light animation to simulate work.

 

- Crew on your ship should have duty rosters.

- On duty personnel are at their station.

- Off duty personnel chill out in the mess (ME2 had the same two guys slacking off in the mess 24/7)

- When it gets late, they go to bed.

 

Then there's the consequences of your decisions. Since KoTOR, Bioware have used the same tried and tested Light side/Dark side mechanic for morale decisions in its approach to dialogue. They've named it different things but it's remained the same whether you're a Knight of the Light Side or a Paragon of virtue. These decisions you make throughout the game usually have an impact on your epilogue narrative. For example, putting Bhelen on the Throne in Origins gives a slightly different narrative than Harrowmont. The problem is that from that moment forward, until that final narrative, your decision has no further impact on the game.

 

Similarly, fast forward to Inquisition and you have a choice to support the Mages or the Templars but beyond the faction you find yourself fighting against further in the game, there's no day to day impact with that choice. Another example in DA:I is Cole. On one side you have Cullen, ex-Mage hunter, Cassandra, former Seeker and right hand of the Devine and Vivienne, arch-proponent of the Circle. On the other side you have Solas, apostate mage who likes to wander the fade. Cole is a Deamon and you have the opportunity to choose to keep him around or send him away.

 

Here's the problem. Your decision has no impact on the game from that point forward save to loose one member of your pool of companions. Cassandra, Cullen and Vivienne are going to be furious to the point that they'd probably leave your service if you choose to keep Cole around. Even if they don't, having a Daemon wandering around your keep is the kind of thing that's going to get people talking. You'd visit towns and villages and you'd hear them say "he conspires with daemons, he does". The Inquisition would loose face. Or at least, you would if this wasn't a Bioware game.

 

- Conversations should be more nuanced.

- They should have an impact on the immediate story.

- Certain decisions you make should be acknowledged by your crew or the people you visit.

- Certain decisions should make certain people uncomfortable and unwelcoming.

- Your actions should have consequences that change the way the story plays from that moment on.

 

Finally, there's the way you approach situations. In every game since KoTOR, what can be considered Bioware's modern era (before that it was largely old school isometric RPGs), each level, each mission you undertake is linear. There is a single route in, a single way of handling situations (usually involving shoot or stabbing someone). 

 

- Give us the option to be stealthy.

- Give us the option to be diplomatic.

- Give us the option to show guile and subterfuge.

- Give us the option to approach an area from three dimensions. 

 

You see, the problem with Bioware worlds is they're not alive. It feels like you're wandering around a Nuclear test silo, cut outs of families and wax food on the tables. They're static and never change from one moment to the next. What I want from Andromeda is Bioware to move with the times. Games like The Witcher 2 & 3, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, MGS5, Dishonoured, all allow you multiple paths and/or multiple ways to handle a situation. Often you can talk your way out, sneak your way out, bribe your way out or just good ol' fashioned fight your way out.

 

Cause a blood bath in Deus Ex 3 by slaughtering the Terrorists and ignoring the hostages and the Police will react differently to you, Sarin industries employees will react differently, the press coverage will be (rightly so) negative. Kill gang members in TW3's Novigrad and people will comment on how you have the 'Street's respect'. Help the guards out by undertaking voluntary missions and their attitude towards you changes. How you act in your playthrough affects how others in the game perceive you. Little things like this add to the value of a vibrant, living world.  This is what I want to see in Andromeda, not more of the same old same old.

 

I await the flames :)


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#2
N7Jamaican

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BioWare doesn't follow the times or are innovative?



#3
Jeremiah12LGeek

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I'm not sure your expectations are realistic.


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#4
Metalfros

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BioWare games have never be as free as they claim it to be. In fact, I think our choices are largely limited too dialogue options and (optional) romances. I really hope BioWare takes at least some of our points into account.



#5
MstrJedi Kyle

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Cole is not a demon! He's an adorable little murder puppy!

 

I would like multiple ways to approach missions though, that would be pretty super.



#6
Metalfros

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Cole is not a demon! He's an adorable little murder puppy!

 

You call him a spirit? Only demons exist



#7
Hellamarian

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I'm not sure your expectations are realistic.

 

Yeah. I'd love to see all this too, OP, but it's just not feasible, really.



#8
MstrJedi Kyle

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You call him a spirit? Only demons exist

 

I didn't call him a spirit, I called him a murder puppy!



#9
Hanako Ikezawa

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You call him a spirit? Only demons exist

That's not factually accurate. 



#10
Indigenous

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I've been banging on a lot about the next Mass Effect learning the lessons from previous Bioware games and giving the player consequences for their choices. The problem is that as I see it, Bioware games are not moving forward, not moving with the times. They lack innovation.

 


 

I await the flames :)

Lol the balls on you thinking you can lecture Bioware on how to make a good game. It is easy as a fan of something to make demands and criticise but it is alot harder to do those things. In addition to listing all the things you want, you should probably also let them know how to do it. :)

 

I agree with a lot of what you want but as long as Andromeda has a story that is influenced by the choices the player character makes, I could less about all the other stuff.

 

I also don't think Bioware have the personnel to make a truly open world game. The Witcher Series had a day/night cycle since the first game so it is no wonder The Witcher III was amazing. Inquisition was Bioware's first attempt at that sort of game and they just didn't have the experience to pull it off. Maybe EA needs to poach some people from CDPR to make it work.

 

 

Similarly, fast forward to Inquisition and you have a choice to support the Mages or the Templars but beyond the faction you find yourself fighting against further in the game, there's no day to day impact with that choice.

Does this make sense to you?



#11
TruthSerum

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I've been banging on a lot about the next Mass Effect learning the lessons from previous Bioware games and giving the player consequences for their choices. The problem is that as I see it, Bioware games are not moving forward, not moving with the times. They lack innovation.

 

If you look at Mass Effect and Dragon Age Origins, they both have a series of small maps to discover with largely static NPCs. The NPCs never move, They remain where they are with some light animations representing conversations taking place. If you then fast forward to their last game, Dragon Age Inquisition, you have a series of large maps to discover with largely static NPCs that do not have any lives. They stand around in the same spot day after day, hour after hour.

 

- NPCs should have their own lives and routines.

- They should go to work, have lunch, go home, sleep.

- They should stop and talk to their neighbours, complain about the weather.

- They should comment on their environment including the protagonist and his/her party.

 

Similarly, if you look at the Normandy in all three Mass Effect games, the same people are at the same stations 24/7. They never move and have some light animation to simulate work.

 

- Crew on your ship should have duty rosters.

- On duty personnel are at their station.

- Off duty personnel chill out in the mess (ME2 had the same two guys slacking off in the mess 24/7)

- When it gets late, they go to bed.

 

Then there's the consequences of your decisions. Since KoTOR, Bioware have used the same tried and tested Light side/Dark side mechanic for morale decisions in its approach to dialogue. They've named it different things but it's remained the same whether you're a Knight of the Light Side or a Paragon of virtue. These decisions you make throughout the game usually have an impact on your epilogue narrative. For example, putting Bhelen on the Throne in Origins gives a slightly different narrative than Harrowmont. The problem is that from that moment forward, until that final narrative, your decision has no further impact on the game.

 

Similarly, fast forward to Inquisition and you have a choice to support the Mages or the Templars but beyond the faction you find yourself fighting against further in the game, there's no day to day impact with that choice. Another example in DA:I is Cole. On one side you have Cullen, ex-Mage hunter, Cassandra, former Seeker and right hand of the Devine and Vivienne, arch-proponent of the Circle. On the other side you have Solas, apostate mage who likes to wander the fade. Cole is a Deamon and you have the opportunity to choose to keep him around or send him away.

 

Here's the problem. Your decision has no impact on the game from that point forward save to loose one member of your pool of companions. Cassandra, Cullen and Vivienne are going to be furious to the point that they'd probably leave your service if you choose to keep Cole around. Even if they don't, having a Daemon wandering around your keep is the kind of thing that's going to get people talking. You'd visit towns and villages and you'd hear them say "he conspires with daemons, he does". The Inquisition would loose face. Or at least, you would if this wasn't a Bioware game.

 

- Conversations should be more nuanced.

- They should have an impact on the immediate story.

- Certain decisions you make should be acknowledged by your crew or the people you visit.

- Certain decisions should make certain people uncomfortable and unwelcoming.

- Your actions should have consequences that change the way the story plays from that moment on.

 

Finally, there's the way you approach situations. In every game since KoTOR, what can be considered Bioware's modern era (before that it was largely old school isometric RPGs), each level, each mission you undertake is linear. There is a single route in, a single way of handling situations (usually involving shoot or stabbing someone). 

 

- Give us the option to be stealthy.

- Give us the option to be diplomatic.

- Give us the option to show guile and subterfuge.

- Give us the option to approach an area from three dimensions. 

 

You see, the problem with Bioware worlds is they're not alive. It feels like you're wandering around a Nuclear test silo, cut outs of families and wax food on the tables. They're static and never change from one moment to the next. What I want from Andromeda is Bioware to move with the times. Games like The Witcher 2 & 3, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, MGS5, Dishonoured, all allow you multiple paths and/or multiple ways to handle a situation. Often you can talk your way out, sneak your way out, bribe your way out or just good ol' fashioned fight your way out.

 

Cause a blood bath in Deus Ex 3 by slaughtering the Terrorists and ignoring the hostages and the Police will react differently to you, Sarin industries employees will react differently, the press coverage will be (rightly so) negative. Kill gang members in TW3's Novigrad and people will comment on how you have the 'Street's respect'. Help the guards out by undertaking voluntary missions and their attitude towards you changes. How you act in your playthrough affects how others in the game perceive you. Little things like this add to the value of a vibrant, living world.  This is what I want to see in Andromeda, not more of the same old same old.

 

I await the flames :)

 

 

Games are not RL. Nor should they try to be. 



#12
BabyPuncher

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BioWare has much more important areas they should be spending their resources on than make NPCs we don't care about sleep and eat lunch.


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#13
KaiserShep

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BioWare has much more important areas to spend their resources on than make NPCs we don't care about sleep and eat lunch.

 

But what if we can shake them awake and slap their lunch trays out of their hands for amusement? 


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#14
Linkenski

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I didn't bother reading beyond the mention of NPCs being believable which is what I've been saying a lot too. It's time Bioware makes NPCs that are not just static bricks that block the player's path if you move into them. Witcher 3 had you bumping into the NPCs and NPCs had proper AIs and scripted schedules.

 

If you look at your average Bioware NPC it has a pre-determined path it can move in that often glitches out and makes said character move into a wall or making them do something that looks unnatural or passive, and over half the NPCs usually stand in place with no expression in their face.

 

Check out a video I uploaded directly from my PS4 showcasing how terrible the NPCs are even when they're scripted. 


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#15
AlanC9

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If you look at Mass Effect and Dragon Age Origins, they both have a series of small maps to discover with largely static NPCs. The NPCs never move, They remain where they are with some light animations representing conversations taking place. If you then fast forward to their last game, Dragon Age Inquisition, you have a series of large maps to discover with largely static NPCs that do not have any lives. They stand around in the same spot day after day, hour after hour.


Go further back. NWN didn't do NPC schedules, and BG barely did. Same thing for your consequences point. And your linearity point.

I'm not making a substantive argument here. I'm just pointing out that this is what Bio has always done. We had these arguments back when Ultima VI was the game with NPC schedules.

#16
Lady Artifice

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I get the request for immersion's sake, but I'm not sure making the characters have daily habits is really worth the coding and time it would take.

 

As for the Cole thing, I think it's pretty well accounted for in the lore. People just don't remember him very well, which doesn't seem ridiculous given the context of his story in either Asunder or the main game. 


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#17
saladinbob

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Yes, Bioware games lack innovation. They all follow the same template - a series of maps with an objective which you approach in a linear fashion, fight through a mob and/or face a boss fight at the end. 

 

Am I being unrealistic? Let's see:

 

- STALKER, Skyrim, The Witcher 3, MGS 5, Firewatch, Planetside 2, TESO are examples of games with day/night cycles.

- Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, The Witcher 3, MGS 5 are examples of games with dynamic weather.

- Deus Ex 3, Skyrim, The Witcher 3 are examples of games were your decisions have an immediate and ongoing impact.

- Skyrim, The Witcher 3 are examples of games were the NPCs have their own day-to-day schedules (work, eat etc.)

- Deus Ex 3, Skyrim, MGS 5, Dishonoured are examples of games with non-linear approaches to your objective.

 

If these games can have these features, why is it unrealistic to expect ME:A to incorporate some or all of them? A game called Shenmue was released in 1987 and it had dynamic weather to which the NPCs would react to. That game is older than some people on this forum. There are many more examples of games having these features so again, I ask, why is it unreasonable to expect ME:A to have them?

 

Rather than having a simplistic Paragon/Renegade system, is it beyond the realms of possibility that if I act in an aggressive manner towards a vendor, he'll refuse to deal with me in the future? If I give him information I've uncovered on one of his competitors by sneaking in his office and hacking his computer, would it not be better for him to give me a discount? I've a choice here. If I like Stealth and subterfuge, I can use guile and charm to get the information. If I don't, I can beat it out of him. Both approaches are valid, both approaches have their own consequences the player has to live with. Perhaps I don't care about that vendor, he only sells Light Armour and I use Heavy. I don't have time to mess around so I take the direct approach because I'm happy to live with the consequences of my decision. Is that not better than points on a scale that renders your dialogue choice meaningless? I think so and I don't see it as being unreasonable given that other games have similar design choices.

 

Don't believe me, go do your own research. Spend twenty minutes on google and see just how many games out there have these systems in place. You'll probably be surprised by the amount and variation in genres that do.


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#18
Evamitchelle

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Yes, Bioware games lack innovation. They all follow the same template - a series of maps with an objective which you approach in a linear fashion, fight through a mob and/or face a boss fight at the end. 

 

Am I being unrealistic? Let's see:

 

- STALKER, Skyrim, The Witcher 3, MGS 5, Firewatch, Planetside 2, TESO are examples of games with day/night cycles.

- Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, The Witcher 3, MGS 5 are examples of games with dynamic weather.

- Deus Ex 3, Skyrim, The Witcher 3 are examples of games were your decisions have an immediate and ongoing impact.

- Skyrim, The Witcher 3 are examples of games were the NPCs have their own day-to-day schedules (work, eat etc.)

- Deus Ex 3, Skyrim, MGS 5, Dishonoured are examples of games with non-linear approaches to your objective.

 

If these games can have these features, why is it unrealistic to expect ME:A to incorporate some or all of them? A game called Shenmue was released in 1987 and it had dynamic weather to which the NPCs would react to. That game is older than some people on this forum. There are many more examples of games having these features so again, I ask, why is it unreasonable to expect ME:A to have them?

 

[...]

 

Don't believe me, go do your own research. Spend twenty minutes on google and see just how many games out there have these systems in place. You'll probably be surprised by the amount and variation in genres that do.

 

Nobody's arguing that these systems are impossible to create in a game, but it's a bit disingenuous to claim than MEA could easily have those things because x other games have them, while never mentioning that Bioware games do a lot of things these games don't even attempt to do. 

  • Deus Ex, MGS, The Witcher, Dishonored all have a set protagonist with a very clearly defined background.
  • From what we've seen of Deus Ex: Mankind Divided and Dishonored 2 your previous choices have been retconned
  • Deus Ex, The Witcher, Dishonored, Skyrim probably most of the rest do not have party-based combat/exploration

(Dishonored is the only one of those games I've played a lot of, so my perceptions of some of those games might be wrong)

 

It's a question of what you're willing to sacrifice to get those things in. Dishonored's non-linear approach would be significantly harder to do if you had to account for 2-3 additional characters at a time, especially if you add stealth into the mix. 


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#19
Monica21

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Yes, Bioware games lack innovation. They all follow the same template - a series of maps with an objective which you approach in a linear fashion, fight through a mob and/or face a boss fight at the end. 

 

Am I being unrealistic? Let's see:

 

- STALKER, Skyrim, The Witcher 3, MGS 5, Firewatch, Planetside 2, TESO are examples of games with day/night cycles.

- Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, The Witcher 3, MGS 5 are examples of games with dynamic weather.

- Deus Ex 3, Skyrim, The Witcher 3 are examples of games were your decisions have an immediate and ongoing impact.

- Skyrim, The Witcher 3 are examples of games were the NPCs have their own day-to-day schedules (work, eat etc.)

- Deus Ex 3, Skyrim, MGS 5, Dishonoured are examples of games with non-linear approaches to your objective.

 

The bolded parts are the only thing I could possibly get excited about in Andromeda. And I use "get excited about" loosely. Anything else is just a resource drain and is boring. I don't care if NPCs have schedules or dynamic weather or day/night cycles.

 

I play Bioware games because they are heavily reliant on the story and are companion-oriented. As long as I find the story interesting, the rest is just background. I want a really good story to play through (not just pretty places to explore) and I want companions with strong characterizations who all have motivations of their own, some of which are in conflict with each other. I think those are pretty interesting things that Bioware brings to the table that most of the rest of those games don't have.


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#20
MattFini

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 A game called Shenmue was released in 1987 

 

 

If Shenmue was released in 1987, Yu Suzuki was even more ahead of his time than I thought. 



#21
InterrogationBear

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Am I being unrealistic? Let's see:

 

- STALKER, Skyrim, The Witcher 3, MGS 5, Firewatch, Planetside 2, TESO are examples of games with day/night cycles.

- Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, The Witcher 3, MGS 5 are examples of games with dynamic weather.

Dynamic weather will be in ME:A, a day/night cycle probably too.

 

- Deus Ex 3, Skyrim, MGS 5, Dishonoured are examples of games with non-linear approaches to your objective.

An open world design allows for non-linear approaches to objectives. Pretty sure we'll see that in ME:A. 



#22
Little Princess Peach

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Op you do realise Bioware wants to do as little imagative work as possible because of umm fundings



#23
Pasquale1234

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Yes, Bioware games lack innovation. They all follow the same template - a series of maps with an objective which you approach in a linear fashion, fight through a mob and/or face a boss fight at the end. 
 
Am I being unrealistic? Let's see:
 
- STALKER, Skyrim, The Witcher 3, MGS 5, Firewatch, Planetside 2, TESO are examples of games with day/night cycles.
- Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, The Witcher 3, MGS 5 are examples of games with dynamic weather.
- Deus Ex 3, Skyrim, The Witcher 3 are examples of games were your decisions have an immediate and ongoing impact.
- Skyrim, The Witcher 3 are examples of games were the NPCs have their own day-to-day schedules (work, eat etc.)
- Deus Ex 3, Skyrim, MGS 5, Dishonoured are examples of games with non-linear approaches to your objective.


Let's see:

- Day / Night cycles. Probably work better if you're planet-bound. Different planets have different cycles. If ME3 had day/night cycles:
Shepard: EDI, how long will it take us to get to x?
EDI: At our current rate of travel, approximately 1 hour 46 minutes.
Shepard: How long until daylight at x?
EDI: Sunrise at our destination is in 16 hours, 18 minutes. Most merchants on x will open for business in 20 hours, 13 minutes.
Shepard: EDI, are there any other tasks on our to-do list where our arrival time would be a better fit with their daylight hours and accessibility?
EDI: Scanning...
etc.
Unless they make the player wait around for time to pass, it would be pretty pointless. Since that doesn't make for fun gameplay, I'd rather not have it.

- Dynamic Weather. It sounds like they are doing that for ME:A. There are some entries in the twitter thread that allude to it.

- Decisions having an immediate and ongoing impact. Bioware has done plenty of that in their games. The trilogy was a unique case, since they had to carry over and deal with a lot of different decisions, NPC deaths, etc., for 3 full games.

- NPCs with day to day schedules. Again, probably better if you're planetbound. Since we typically only visit commercial areas (rather than residential) in Bioware games, I fail to see the point.

- Non-linearity. Bioware has also done games that were much less linear than the trilogy became. I say became, because each game became more and more linear. By ME3, they set out to make it movie-like (and succeeded), with cutscene after cutscene after cutscene. With a greater focus on exploration, I would expect much less linearity in ME:A.

As others have mentioned, Bioware games have other features - like a customizable PC, personable followers with their own story arcs, party-based exploration and questlines, etc.

Each of the games you mention has its own unique blend of features that make the overall experience. You can't take one ingredient from each of your favorite recipes and expect to cook up something palatable, let alone spectacular.

#24
Star fury

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BioWare has much more important areas they should be spending their resources on than make NPCs we don't care about sleep and eat lunch.

Like more resources to their beloved multiplayer.



#25
LightningPoodle

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Op you do realise Bioware wants to do as little imagative work as possible because of umm fundings

 

Then why are they in the business of Sci-fi and Fantasy? If they don't want to use their imagination, they should start making Call of Duty type games.