206 réponses à ce sujet

[Qun00]

Opposing the current system and the Circles is reasonable enough, but you must offer an alternative to replace what you intend to destroy.

The epilogue is just too vague and doesn't explain what this independent mages scenario is supposed to be like.

It mentions a College of Enchanters/ Bright Hand, but we don't know how will it handle the main issues.

How can they deal with possessed mages/ abominations with no templars around?

How will mages become part of society? Trust is slow to earn and the risks are real, whether you mean magical danger or angry mobs.

Moreover, this college only seems to deal with southern mages. Those in the Free Marches apparently are left to their fate.

I also wonder if one of Fiona's mistakes was reversing the order of change. You don't simply throw mages into a hostile world. Maybe a slower and smoother process would be better.

At the same time, one could argue there is no point in waiting.

In any case, this isn't a simple subject.

[9TailsFox]

1) You are not locked in prison, you can go to mage school if you want, or your parents want.

2)Possessed mages/ abominations, other mages will save/kill person in question if "possessed" person committed crime, not just because you have spirit inside. In Nevarra people take spirits on purpose and everyone fine. In Jaws of Hakkon Avvar mage have spirit and both was perfectly fine.

3) How people accept mage? same as always fear and jealousy of power. Change won't come overnight, but maybe if magic was taught to accepted it in everyday life and not taught to fear it, it would change.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Poorly.

[Big I]

Mages can offer many services to the public they can't get anywhere else. Magical and alchemical healing is much better than the quacks they call healers (the one in Skyhold is in favor of trepanation and leeches). Mages can create devices for instant communication over large distances (mentioned in DA: Asunder). Since enchanters  can create runes that release fire and cold, and can be used by non-mages (all those enchanted weapons) they can use those to develop heating and cooling devices (fireplaces that don't need fuel, ovens, iceboxes to preserve food).

 

Mages can repair tears in the Veil (apart from those related to the Rift). Mages can sense demons (mageHawke in DA2 notices the possessed Profane in the Primeval Thaig). Basically mages are invaluable to the public.

[9TailsFox]

Mages can offer many services to the public they can't get anywhere else. Magical and alchemical healing is much better than the quacks they call healers (the one in Skyhold is in favor of trepanation and leeches). Mages can create devices for instant communication over large distances (mentioned in DA: Asunder). Since enchanters  can create runes that release fire and cold, and can be used by non-mages (all those enchanted weapons) they can use those to develop heating and cooling devices (fireplaces that don't need fuel, ovens, iceboxes to preserve food).

 

Mages can repair tears in the Veil (apart from those related to the Rift). Mages can sense demons (mageHawke in DA2 notices the possessed Profane in the Primeval Thaig). Basically mages are invaluable to the public.

All this.

Spoiler

I mean magic.

Spoiler

[Gervaise]

My biggest worry, which I made a post about, was how young mages are going to be educated.  There was nothing wrong with mage Circles, Tevinter has them, but they needed to be open so the mages could come and go freely and keep in touch with their families.    This would have the double benefit that the wider community would become accustomed to having mages among them without any dire consequences and the mages themselves would feel invested in their communities rather than seeing themselves as an elite group separate from society.     Nothing in Leliana's epilogue indicates how this is going to be dealt with in a future without Circles.    The biggest risk that young mages pose is when they are not trained properly both to safeguard themselves and other people.

 

Even with Leliana as Divine, in my world state there will still be Seekers because Cassandra is going to rebuild them.   There will also be the Inquisition, so the problem of rogue mages should be okay because there will be at least two separate factions policing things.

 

Then there is the problem of where power is invested.    Under the old system there was in fact a two tier system.    Children of nobility got privileges within the Circles, kept contact with their families and had a lot less restrictions.   I would imagine it was highly unlikely they were ever abused since their families would ask questions.    The only real downside to being a noble mage was not being able to inherit land or titles or play a part in government.   I wonder if this will change under the new system.  

 

With mages being truly spread out among society, it could give the lower classes a bigger voice in affairs since they actually have powerful people in their ranks who can stand up for them.   This is what I suspect that the old Circle system was actually trying to avoid.    The children of commoners were cut off from their families and often moved to different areas so they would no longer have any connection with their old community.    They had no advocates except within the Circles, were often abused and lonely.   Unless they sucked up to the nobility (like Vivienne) they had very few privileges and those were entirely dependent on the First Enchanter.    They lost touch with the community they were from so no longer saw themselves as part of it.   Their former neighbours likewise viewed them as strange and dangerous.     The stories of Tevinter did nothing to dispel this view of mages among the general populace and of course their fears could be well founded.    Free mages, from whatever background, historically have tended to rise to the top of the pile.     When things got tough for the rebel mages in the south, what did they do?   They joined up with Tevinter.     That is going to be the biggest challenge in the future - not establishing a second Tevinter in the south.

 

As for revenue, mages will have to earn this from mercenary work, by joining national armies and by offering healing services within the community.   They will not be able to earn money from enchanting items, which was always a lucrative source of funds for the Circes, because this work was undertaken exclusively by tranquil.   Since the rebellion started over the matter of the rite of tranquillity and mages strong objections should you try and use this as a form of punishment in the Inquisition and wanted it reversed in those that had been subjected in the past, plus the Venatori killed off many of the tranquil to make their hideous shard skulls, this is not going to be a viable source of income in the future.   This will be good news for the dwarves since they will now have a monopoly on this trade.

[Daerog]

Nations will create their own schools and magic police forces.

 

The nations will require their mages to attend their schools, because why wouldn't they?

 

The nations will create their own laws concerning magic and its practices.

 

Nobles will greatly invest in enchantments and that Litany of Adralla in order to avoid bloodmagic foolery, which would advance the techniques and uses of enchantments in everyday society.

 

With the different laws between the nations, the different ways in which mages interact with society in each nation, and the investments into different kinds of magic in each nation will probably make each nation more varied and divided.

 

The Imperial Chantry will probably be able to grow in Nevarra, Rivain, and in the Free Marches, and grow in its influence in Tevinter with it no longer being dominated by Tevinter's Circle of Magi (like all of Tevinter society).

 

The introduction of Sister Petrice, whether she is killed or not, makes me think that some Grand Clerics will lean to being more conservative or liberal, and with the weakening of the Chantry, there will probably be other cults of the Maker sprouting up (especially if Leliana is made Divine, with the whole "whatever seems good, go do it" will just open up a can of worms on what is canon and what is heresy).

[xPez]

I think it would be sensible to still have Circles or an equivalent that all mages have to attend up to a certain age, just like school in real life! Then they're taught magic and how to control it, the dangers of daemons and the morality of magic etc etc, then they can go live a normal life when they graduate.

 

You'd still need the Seekers as a magic police force though.

[Daerog]

Well, unlike normal schools, instead of being kicked out or dropping out, the kid is just killed. Like with the Avvar, if it is deemed the kid doesn't have the mental strength to handle being a mage and could pose a threat (like all mages), they are killed.

 

That, or they are kept in quarantine somewhere to be watched and let them live their lives at certain heavily warded places... or they keep practicing Tranquility...

[andy6915]

Mage schools, or maybe colleges. There would be dormitories for mages who's parents disowned them or orphans and other such circumstances where they could live and be taken care of, but even then they would be allowed to roam and hang out wherever they want so long as they're not being absent from their lessons. They would be as free as a student at a modern day college, except it would be mandatory until graduation (I've not thought of a way to deal with mages who refuse to go to class though). Mages who still have caring parents can just stay with their family, as long as they make it to mage school on time. Or hell, just set it up like the Harry Potter universe does it, just make big magic schools you have to go to for several months of the year for seven years or so... I just realized while I was typing this that I was basically describing the Harry Potter method of teaching magic properly, it being a school that you have to attend but you're not a prisoner to. Either way, make it a school setting and make sure they have actual freedom.

 

Anyway, mages who have graduated are done, from there they could do whatever they want so long as it's not illegal, return to their parents or pursue careers or stay with the magic school to mentor other mages or stay to continue getting better at their magic beyond what is mandatory or whatever they want. Templars will be more like a controlled police force rather than an army. Fanatics will actually be disqualified from being Templars, and the more secular a Templar is the more likely they are to be considered for enlistment. There will also be a force of mage-Templars, mages who join the Templar organization to support the Templars. Mages are better at handling other mages than Templars are, mages who wish to help will be most welcome editions. Each school will have a small group of authorized blood mages to help combat other blood mages, and because blood mages can detect demons inside other mages, and because known blood mages will be an asset as they will know the signs of other blood mages and will be far better at picking up the subtle signs than the Templars could ever be. These blood mages will go through rigorous testing and checks to make sure they are of strong moral fiber and ethics who won't abuse their power, and they will be the only ones allowed to be blood mages. Fact is blood magic is going to happen sometimes, so it's best to make it legal but very limited and restricted and regulated, and these blood mages will help to make sure to root out any unauthorized ones in the school or out of it. Best person to deal with blood magic is other blood mages, and restricting blood magic research doesn't help anyone (the Litany that protects against blood magic in DAO was made precisely because someone researched blood magic enough to come up with countermeasures).

[Ziegrif]

The mages put on kilts.

Moon the Templars.

Yell FREEEEEDOOOOOOMMM!!!

And then get killed off.

I guess.

[BraveVesperia]

I imagine the College would function like the Circle, but without Harrowings or templars. Mages can deal with their fellows becoming abominations and hunt down maleficars (though maybe they'd eventually want to recruit templars). I think the number of abominations will go down without that element of fear and desperation.

 

The College would teach mages to control their power (those that can't would perhaps need to remain within the College under lifetime supervision?), and perhaps mages would need to be registered once training is complete. They could work to help society. It'd be slow to trust, but things like healing and enchantments would go a long way.

[Heimdall]

Keep the Circles, just make them mandatory boarding schools Mages must attend but are free to leave after graduation. They should be able to return to their families and hold any inherited titles.

The Inquisition and possibly a new incarnation of the Templars/Seekers should police crimes involving magic and monitor practicing mages throughout Thedas.

[andy6915]

I imagine the College would function like the Circle, but without Harrowings or templars. Mages can deal with their fellows becoming abominations and hunt down maleficars (though maybe they'd eventually want to recruit templars). I think the number of abominations will go down without that element of fear and desperation.

 

The College would teach mages to control their power (those that can't would perhaps need to remain within the College under lifetime supervision?), and perhaps mages would need to be registered once training is complete. They could work to help society. It'd be slow to trust, but things like healing and enchantments would go a long way.

 

You pretty much described my idea in about 1/10th of the words. Yeah, basically just a magic school. A magic school that lets you actually hang out with the rest of society in your off hours and lets you actually have constant interaction with your family, not a prison where you're forbidden to interact with the rest of society and where your parents are just some name in your file.

 

Oh, and the registry thing is actually a really good idea.

[Lulupab]

Its left for interpretation, and people in this thread have given most of It.

 

Those who think it wouldn't work? Pure speculation. Such system has never used, it was either Tevinter or opposite harsh version of it of it. The college or bright hand is the middle ground. 

 

I agree on mandatory learning process for mages, heck even Anders agrees on this, no one opposed circles more than him. But there is so much room for making the process better. In DA:I the college or bright hand is the way to go for this to happen.

 

I don't see how people can think its good to go back to the old way which started a global revolution, than to start a new system on a grounded level. 

[Daerog]

In DA:I, you can never go back to the "old system."

 

You either get a mage in charge of not only the Circle, but of the Chantry as well, or you get a reformer or you get a dissolver. Change and some sort of revolution takes place in every outcome.

 

The Circle also had its slight changes over time (not in written down rules, but more in outlook and views) since the Circle was first founded.

[Dieb]

Keep the Circles, just make them mandatory boarding schools Mages must attend but are free to leave after graduation. They should be able to return to their families and hold any inherited titles.

 

This.

 

The thing about magic is, it's an inherent quality of one's body, yet one of which the brain obviously has no naturally programmed instincts to properly deal with. That's why guidance should be absolutely mandatory, without exceptions.

 

Keeping a reserve of Templars as sort of a "special police force" would also be necessary for those who deliberately chose to abuse their powers.

 

Other than that, I don't see how it would work any less effective than anything else. People are different, and will always discriminate between one another for the darndest things. The biggest hurdle would be effectively getting everyone to accept and understand this system.

[Urzon]

There is a huge downside if the Circles get totally dissolved/nullified. If that happens, that means that mages become citizens and fall under the jurisdiction of their native countries. This isn't totally bad, since this actually makes the countries learn how to deal with magically matters on their own without having to rely on the Chantry/Templars, but the downside from this being is that citizens can be conscripted at a moments notice.

That sort of situation opens up a lot of cans of worms all over Thedas. Any sort of politically minded lord, or one with conquest in mind (cough)Gaspard(cough), can conscript all the mages under his or her authority into their service. Power hungry nobles can pressure their mages into blood magic to kill/control a rival. Squads of mages serving in the rank and file of the army, being constantly put in deadly stressful situations because how much of an asset they are.

[andy6915]

That sort of situation opens up a lot of cans of worms all over Thedas. Any sort of politically minded lord, or one with conquest in mind (cough)Gaspard(cough), can conscript all the mages under his or her authority into their service. Power hungry nobles can pressure their mages into blood magic to kill/control a rival. Squads of mages serving in the rank and file of the army, being constantly put in deadly stressful situations because how much of an asset they are.

 

Not under my system. Under mine, blood mages go through rigorous testing of many different attributes to be measured about a person and there will only be a few legal ones at any time. If someone did what you're suggesting, they would be breaking international law and would incur very serious repercussions. And the thing about being pressed for service is already the case, the rulers of a country are very much allowed to use their mages in a war scenario. That was largely how the qunari were pushed back in their way, in fact. They used their cannons, we used our mages, we won. Same thing with the blight in Ferelden. Same thing with using them against the qunari (again) in Kirkwall went they went nuts. So that already happens, it's not going to be something that eventually happens. Unless you think that should be changed, that's a different matter.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

The mages put on kilts.

Moon the Templars.

Yell FREEEEEDOOOOOOMMM!!!

And then get killed off.

I guess.

 

I have reached my quota of positive likes for the day (boooo!) but hey Z.

[Urzon]

Not under my system. Under mine, blood mages go through rigorous testing of many different attributes to be measured about a person and there will only be a few legal ones at any time. If someone did what you're suggesting, they would be breaking international law and would incur very serious repercussions.

Any mage could easily become a blood mage if they make a deal with a demon. That's why they were such a huge problem in Kirkwall. There wouldn't be time for any sort of testing on the matter because of that. He or she would have already broken the law and only gotten caught because they were either stupid or the damage has already been done by that point.
 

And the thing about being pressed for service is already the case, the rulers of a country are very much allowed to use their mages in a war scenario. That was largely how the qunari were pushed back in their way, in fact. They used their cannons, we used our mages, we won. Same thing with the blight in Ferelden. Same thing with using them against the qunari (again) in Kirkwall went they went nuts. So that already happens, it's not going to be something that eventually happens. Unless you think that should be changed, that's a different matter.

They were pressured or forced into service in those conflicts, but during all those instances the Circle was a neutral international organization allied with/governed by the Chantry. The rulers of the land, other than the Divine, couldn't compel them to do much of anything. The Circle took action against the Qunari, with sanction from the Divine probably by way of Exalted March, because they were a threat to Thedas as a whole. They took action against the Blight in Ferelden because the Grey Wardens had a treaty with them compelling them to do so, and in Kirkwall they were defending themselves and repelling the Qunari attack because the Qunari attacked them first.

The monarchs could ask the Chantry and the Circle for help certain matters, but they couldn't demand the help or service of the mages. And even if they could, the Chantry could simply disregard their request and only send what they thought might be "appropriate". That's what's going to change if the Circles get dissolved. Before hand, they were (mostly) politically neutral and their service only called in the most dire of situation. Now they would be at the whim of their lord or monarch.

[Qun00]

This.

The thing about magic is, it's an inherent quality of one's body, yet one of which the brain obviously has no naturally programmed instincts to properly deal with. That's why guidance should be absolutely mandatory, without exceptions.

Keeping a reserve of Templars as sort of a "special police force" would also be necessary for those who deliberately chose to abuse their powers.

Other than that, I don't see how it would work any less effective than anything else. People are different, and will always discriminate between one another for the darndest things. The biggest hurdle would be effectively getting everyone to accept and understand this system.

The question is, can Fiona's College of Enchanters offer the required guidance as well as safety measures?

[andy6915]

Any mage could easily become a blood mage if they make a deal with a demon. That's why they were such a huge problem in Kirkwall. There wouldn't be time for any sort of testing on the matter because of that. He or she would have already broken the law and only gotten caught because they were either stupid or the damage has already been done by that point.
 

They were pressured or forced into service in those conflicts, but during all those instances the Circle was a neutral international organization allied with/governed by the Chantry. The rulers of the land, other than the Divine, couldn't compel them to do much of anything. The Circle took action against the Qunari, with sanction from the Divine probably by way of Exalted March, because they were a threat to Thedas as a whole. They took action against the Blight in Ferelden because the Grey Wardens had a treaty with them compelling them to do so, and in Kirkwall they were defending themselves and repelling the Qunari attack because the Qunari attacked them first.

The monarchs could ask the Chantry and the Circle for help certain matters, but they couldn't demand the help or service of the mages. And even if they could, the Chantry could simply disregard their request and only send what they thought might be "appropriate". That's what's going to change if the Circles get dissolved. Before hand, they were (mostly) politically neutral and their service only called in the most dire of situation. Now they would be at the whim of their lord or monarch.

 

That is why I am not saying to fully get rid of templars, they would become mage police. Mage police that allow both mages normal people, and even a few blood mages in their own ranks. Of course people will be secretly doing it, people do illegal stuff all the time. I'm not naive. So yes, there would need to be some form of a templar order that seeks out blood magic and bad mages. They would even have independent organizations to call upon for help, the mages collective for example.

 

Who said the governmental leaders would control mage citizens? Maybe the chantry could still be the ones in charge of mages, just not in charge of... Mages. Okay, that was confusing. The chantry could be the ones with jurisdiction over them instead of government, but not actually enslave or incarcerate them like they used to. Like they would be in charge of not letting governments just use their mages however they want, but wouldn't control the mages directly. Or maybe the Inquisition itself can do it instead of the chantry, be the organization in charge of that. Or even reformed Seekers under Cassandra. In whatever case, it would be as allies instead of "leash holders" (to use a qunari metaphor). Mages could still be politically neutral without being under lock and key at circles, I don't know why you think "no more mage prisons" automatically means "slaves of the government".

[Lulupab]

In DA:I, you can never go back to the "old system."

 

You either get a mage in charge of not only the Circle, but of the Chantry as well, or you get a reformer or you get a dissolver. Change and some sort of revolution takes place in every outcome.

 

The Circle also had its slight changes over time (not in written down rules, but more in outlook and views) since the Circle was first founded.

 

I know, no matter what you do things get better for mages. Whether inside circles or somewhere else.

 

But still some endings are too similar to old system