206 réponses à ce sujet

[Qun00]

Yeah, the Bright Hand is tied to the Inquisition. While the College is completely independent. While in Cass' ending, she wants to reform the Circles, but they do it on their own terms as the Bright Hand... but there's more political friction in this Circle system.

I've edited my post and that is not all I said.

Do read again.

[esper]

And they have Dorian and Mae (I think that's her name?) now.

 

And properly others too, who just don't wield as much influence as those two.

 

Again the problem is not inherent with the magic, it is inherent with the slave system - had they not been mages they would have misused their slave in other ways.

[The Baconer]

And they have Dorian and Mae (I think that's her name?) now.

 

And properly others too, who just don't wield as much influence as those two.

 

Again the problem is not inherent with the magic, it is inherent with the slave system - had they not been mages they would have misused their slave in other ways.

 

Nobody claimed the problem was inherent with magic, only that the bad magic is the result of the moral depravation that defines Tevinter politics.

[Vit246]

Nobody claimed the problem was inherent with magic, only that the bad magic is the result of the moral depravation that defines Tevinter politics.

 

I think what people are trying to say is that it might be rather folly to presume that the culturally / morally-raised Andrastian mages would so easily turn into another morally bankrupt Tevinter if they were left to have some measure of control over their own affairs and devices.

[Qun00]

Glad to see I'm not the only one that thinks Jowan didn't deserve help.

Anyhow, what they need is a whole new system to be built as substitute for the Circles. Not just an example.

I'm still hoping we'll learn what happens to mages outside southern Thedas.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

There is no "corrupt magic" in Tevinter system, such notion was formed by the southern chantry.

Yeah, nothing wrong with human sacrifice. How galling of the Chantry to want to watch these people.

 

Mate the differences between the 2 mage groups are greatly different. It would be just as asinine as saying that because one group of templars started huffing red lyrium all red templars will start huffing red lyrium.

 
Your Templar statement is a false-equivalence to what I am saying. A more accurate one would be more like: if you stop controlling Templars with regular blue lyrium, then you will have a problem with some Templars using red lyrium. And I actually would not be compelled to disagree with that assessment. Not saying all of them will go bad, but likely some would, and perhaps enough would to be a problem.
 

And the problem with non mage organisation is that they will not be able to detect magical corruption. Because they lack the knowledge to do so. The templars for the most part can only  fix the symptons and not the cause of the disease.

 

Even if they cannot preempt corruption, their existence can mitigate the damage done by it, which is worth it for any number of lives it can save.

I was not really even talking about that, though. Who knows how powerful any given Circle can get. If they are creating any kinds of policies, there should be a voice from the other side to ensure the interests of others are protected. Not only that, but also to prevent the kind of in-group/out-group mentality isolation can bring that fuels conflict of any type.

Perhaps the Circle did not do well in getting mages and non-mages to learn to work together, but at least an element of it was there.

 

And how is magical corruption worse than say... "Let's burn down and alienage, because they might find out I have slept wiht an elf".

 

Because only a very select few individuals in society can do said burning. The rest of the population does not have that ability.

Anyone with magic can be a blood-mage and/or get themselves possessed and similarly massacre civilians.
 

The problem with Tevinter is not caused by magic - or even blood magic (though blood magic helps), it is caused by have a slave system, which dehumanized a group of people making them easy to kill and not care if you robs them of basic free will.

 

Slavery is a symptom of blood-magic, not the other way around. Attempts are made to abolish slavery quite frequently, but they never last.
 

All the rulers of Thedas can go mustache twirling and kills in hundres - and they do.

 

YUP, which is why the rulers of Thedas need their power greatly restricted... just like the mages need the same until and unless they prove trustworthy.
 

I still fail to see how the current magisters of Tevinter are worse than say Orlais.

 

Because magisters of Tevinter can do everything that Orlesian nobility can, plus blood-magic.

At least Orlesian nobles do not find entertainment in sacrificing children for blood-rituals.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I think what people are trying to say is that it might be rather folly to presume that the culturally / morally-raised Andrastian mages would so easily turn into another morally bankrupt Tevinter if they were left to conduct their own affairs and devices.

 

To which I would argue that the real folly is not ruling out the possibility, especially by way of fallacious causation logic (such as, treating them like a single-minded entity making uniform decisions rather than one with many individuals who may not share the same values).

[The Baconer]

Because magisters of Tevinter can do everything that Orlesian nobility can, plus blood-magic.

At least Orlesian nobles do not find entertainment in sacrificing children for blood-rituals.

 

They probably would... if they could.

[SgtSteel91]

They probably would... if they could.

Chevaliers are expected to kill an Elf as part of their graduation.

[Vit246]

They probably would... if they could.

 

Maybe. Maybe not. But Chevaliers do find entertainment in sacrificing elves for their own blood rituals of training and knighthood.

[Yaroub]

Learn not to trust the epilogue, in the next sequel templars will probably return and who ever you put as divine will either step down to accompany you or will be thrown out, killed or something else.
The circle in Tevinter seems to work just fine, mages are naughty they need the circles but the chantry have to cancel the harrowing and the tranquility thing, also the mages should be allowed to leave after Graduation and do what ever mages do.

[Kakistos_]

What an odd question. How exactly would freedom work? Exactly like it already does. An all too common misconception about the Mage/Templar/Circle dilemma is that the only alternative is Tevinter, the options being lock all Mages up or be ruled by "evil" magic and or be slaughtered by Abominations. It was clear from day one in DA:O that the Chantry stance that free Mages = Blood Magic + Abominations was propaganda. The Circle of Magi IS NOT the only authority and solution to Magic and most certainly not the best. Arguably the worse.

There are in fact several societies/organizations in Thedas, not influenced by the Chantry, in which Mages are and have been for centuries peacefully integrated and co-habitate with their mundane brethren with no restriction and ill effect.

Tevinter: The big obvious one. SLAVERY AND BLOOD MAGIC ARE EVIL GRRRRRR!!! As we know, not all Mages in Tevinter practice Blood Magic, nor is Tevinter the only nation with slaves. http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Slavery. And despite the use of Blood Magic and Demon consort ion, Tevinter lacks Templars capable of disrupting Magic. Any of the Abominations that are clearly not overrunning the place are dealt with regardless.

The Dalish: Mages among the Dalish are cultural leaders, Keepers, and depending on who you talk to, are either rare and prized or overabundant and kicked out if burdensome. Either way, the Dalish Mages are restricted only in tradition, which they can choose not to follow, and are free to live as they will with their Clan.

The Avvar: The Mages of the Avvar are called Shamans and like the Dalish Keepers are spiritual guides to their people. The traditions of the Shamans and Avvar predate the Circle of Magi and the Chantry. Due to the cultural importance of Mages, Templars are not welcome by the Avvar. The Avvar even train Mages by allowing them to be possessed by a Spirit. They have methods and contingencies in place should said Spirits are reluctant to leave.

Rivain: Rivain does indeed have a Circle Tower but unlike any other. It serves mostly as an appeasement to the Chantry as the people of Rivain are not Andrastian nor are they truly Qunari, though some are. The Dalish even have a settlement there. The Mages of Rivain have no restrictions on their freedom, they travel freely and remain with their families. As a matriarchal society and similar to the Avvar, Rivain was lead by Seers, female Mages that allowed themselves to become possessed to help lead their people.

When the Chantry discovered this the Templars invoked the Right of Annulment in 9:40 Dragon and slaughtered the Mages in the capital city of Dairsmuid despite the fact that the Mages were in fact co-existing peacefully. Context: The Templars didn't kill all of those scary Blood Mages in that Tower over there. They marched into a town and killed husbands, wives, sons, daughters and spiritual leaders. The political fallout and consequences for the Chantry and Templar's actions are thus far unknown but I cannot see the nation of Rivain just letting this one slide.

The Grey Wardens: The Mages of the Grey Wardens are treated just as any other Warden. They have no more personal restrictions nor are they barred from attaining any rank such as Warden Commander or First Warden. Warden Mages have no restrictions on their use of Magic and can use whatever means they wish to kill Darkspawn including Blood Magic and Demon Summoning. The Joining itself, the process that creates Grey Wardens, is a Blood Magic Ritual.

 

[Sports72Xtrm]

I think that's going a bit far. The Circle worked for over a thousand years. Few things work that long. Countries go through major transformations within hundreds of years, and many institutions die off. Yet this one lasted pretty damn long. And it was the doing of the first Inquisition.... the very organization we're so happy to adopt now. If it was really so bad, then what does that say about the Inquisition? 

 

I think Gaider puts the formation of the Circles in the proper context... they meant well:

 

The thing to remember as well is that the Circles were created to help Thedas as well. We had the Blights, and the first Circles were created shortly after the first Blight. The mages become vitally important when there's a Blight in order to combat the darkspawn. So it wasn't like the Chantry wanted to cripple the mages, they wanted them to have the power they needed to help humanity.

 

 

http://swooping-is-b...om/1286233.html

 

 

Before that, people were just hunting down mages wholesale, blaming them for everything. The Chantry wanted to protect them as much as protect everyone else. And they knew they needed mages for serious problems, like the Blights.

What it says about the Inquisition is that they were not as wise as they believed themselves to be despite their good intentions, and the expectation is for the modern Inquisition to learn from it's predecessor's mistakes and do better. Whatever their good intentions, the reality is it is corrupt and exploitatory. The Seekers of Truth have known about abuses in Kirkwall and turned a blind eye. The Rite of Tranquility, which is supposedly used as a means for a mage's salvation from demonic possession, is used as a punitive means to threaten and coerce mages into compliace- just like the magesterium uses. And the Seekers, those who are meant to have the mages' best interests at heart, know of it's reversal process and kept it secret in order to maintain control. The Chantry have for years persecuted mages with their fearmongering and only until Justinia did they get a Divine who advocated for the mages. Some Divines used their position only to grant them more agency and power and care nothing about the Chant.. And the harder they persecute the more mages are driven to dark magic as a means of survival if not retaliation. The Chantry and templars' relationship is similar to Marjorlaine and Leliana's, sure they profess care about the latter's well being but only when it's convenient- when they can exploit and control them.

 

Resistance to the Circle has been going on for ages, many mages revolted, resisted, and spoke publicly against the institution,. They were silenced by Tranquility or murder. The Circle's prevalence lasted so long only because of rampant abuse gone unchecked until now. I'll grant that nonmages in the past may not have had the mages' interests at heart, but neither did the Circle.

[Heimdall]

There are people speaking out against every institution, that in and of itself is not a sure indication of failure.

As Viviene is quick to point out, and as we can see for ourselves in the contrast between Kinloch Hold and the Gallows, not to mention descriptions of conditions in the White Spire prior to the crackdown, each circle was different and the abuse/leniency showed to mages varied wildly.

[SgtSteel91]

There are people speaking out against every institution, that in and of itself is not a sure indication of failure.

As Viviene is quick to point out, and as we can see for ourselves in the contrast between Kinloch Hold and the Gallows, not to mention descriptions of conditions in the White Spire prior to the crackdown, each circle was different and the abuse/leniency showed to mages varied wildly.

 

I think that damns the system even more. There’s no system in place to ensure uniformly fair treatment, to enable Mages to report abuses and not have them ignored. Even if there were, 'fair treatment' or 'real' abuse' is really defined by the Chantry, Templars, and Seekers, not the Mages. And all Circles have the Harrowing and the Rite of Tranquility, which are both horrible.

[Kakistos_]

I think that's going a bit far. The Circle worked for over a thousand years. Few things work that long. Countries go through major transformations within hundreds of years, and many institutions die off. Yet this one lasted pretty damn long. And it was the doing of the first Inquisition.... the very organization we're so happy to adopt now. If it was really so bad, then what does that say about the Inquisition? 

 

I think Gaider puts the formation of the Circles in the proper context... they meant well:

 

The thing to remember as well is that the Circles were created to help Thedas as well. We had the Blights, and the first Circles were created shortly after the first Blight. The mages become vitally important when there's a Blight in order to combat the darkspawn. So it wasn't like the Chantry wanted to cripple the mages, they wanted them to have the power they needed to help humanity.

 

 

http://swooping-is-b...om/1286233.html

 

 

Before that, people were just hunting down mages wholesale, blaming them for everything. The Chantry wanted to protect them as much as protect everyone else. And they knew they needed mages for serious problems, like the Blights.

Not at all. Yes, the circle has 'worked' for thousands of years but never without protests from Mages who's only other option is death. The right of Annulment, in which every Mage in a Tower is murdered down to the last apprentice who can be as young as 9 years old, has been executed 13 times over the ages prior to Kirkwall. The Mage rebellion didn't just happen one day. As Cassandra herself admits it was set in motion long ago. And also, as I mentioned in my post there are societies with free Mages that have also worked for thousands of years that PREDATE the Circle and exist to this day and do just fine without Circles and Templars.

 

There are people speaking out against every institution, that in and of itself is not a sure indication of failure.

As Viviene is quick to point out, and as we can see for ourselves in the contrast between Kinloch Hold and the Gallows, not to mention descriptions of conditions in the White Spire prior to the crackdown, each circle was different and the abuse/leniency showed to mages varied wildly.

I agree, speaking out isn't an indication of failure, the rebellion and war that everyone saw coming was. Yes, each circle was different but they all had a uniform set of injustices imposed upon them regardless of the extreme: The rite of Annulment hanging over their heads, taken away from their familes, any children born to them stolen and given to the Chantry, etc. The irony of Vivienne is that while she was lucky enough to rise to prominence in a more permissive tower she was born in Rivain, a country with free Mages.

 

Had Vivienne remained there, in a twist of fate, she would likely be dead now as the Templars found the Mages there had the audacity to live peacefully with their families and use their abilities to guide and aid their people and deemed that they should all be put to death.

 

Edit - Correction. Vivienne was not born in Rivain. My bad.