206 réponses à ce sujet

[Aren]

The alternative,just be ready to not miss the letter and the train.

[Aren]

Chevaliers are expected to kill an Elf as part of their graduation.

And yet there are people who blame Loghain for his paranoia towards the chevaliers probably they had used the Fereldan peasants instead, during the occupation.....

[The Baconer]

And yet there are people who blame Loghain for his paranoia towards the chevaliers probably they had used the Fereldan peasants instead, during the occupation.....

 

As logical as that paranoia may be, Loghain himself was selling people into slavery.

[Kakistos_]

I don't know what you're talking about then. Anything specific in mind? I know the Chasind have their own mages, but even then, they have their own form of Harrowing too.

 

In any case, you're talking to someone who's about make Leliana Divine on my current playthrough. You don't have to get into some big defense of magic. It's unnecessary.

 

I'm specifically disputing your point about how the Circle is the worst solution. Out of the all the things that can happen in this setting, this is the bottom of the barrel for you?

This was clearly outlined in my post earlier. The Avvar, Rivain, The Chasind, The Dalish(pre Fall of the Dales) and the Grey Wardens have all had free Mages throughout their history which predates the founding of the Circle of Magi. I don't think the Circle is the worst solution, the way the Qunari handle Mages is. The Circle causes more problems than it solves. There are multiple examples of Mages turning to Blood Magic and becoming Abominations because they were left with no other choice or thought they were better options than staying confined for the rest of their lives in addition to all of the other injustices.

 

The Circle of Magi is not really a solution, more like a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist. The "Magic should serve man" and propaganda about "Evil" Magic and "Evil" Tevinter are the point of view and justifications of one religion in a world of multiple religions and cultures. Many of those religions and cultures have existed peacefully along side their free Mages since before the founding of the Chantry and Circle, exist to this day and prove the Chantry point of view that free Mages = Tevinter 2.0 wrong.

[Daerog]

All of the cultures have someone who resorts to blood magic, they are all mortals who have temptations, and while we see many blood mages in game, over the course of 1000 years, there haven't been a great number of them in Thedas compared to when the Imperium ruled.

 

The Avvar and Rivain depend on spirits for tutelage and guidance, which can be risky, and forcing another being into accepting possession is not that good of a thing to do, especially since that possessing spirit can kill the child in their sleep. Even the Avvar know how dangerous it can be for a spirit to possess a person for a great period of time, which is why such people are exiled if they don't separate.

 

The Grey Wardens don't have any official schools for magic (that I'm aware of), they get mages that are already trained or in control of themselves (adults, never kids).

 

The Dales... not entirely sure how that went, but the Ancient Elves were living in no paradise.

 

The Circle at least was a way to centralize the learning and teaching of magic, and while the Avvar are more used to working with spirits, they are not as knowledgeable as a fully educated Circle mage.

 

However, all of this can be cast aside if the writers so wish, it is their world. The point of magic and mages in Thedas is that they are dangerous. It is how the world was designed, the writers wanted their mages to be people who could fall to the dark side at any point, who have to deal with temptation and demons every minute of their lives, and who could become Dark Lords if they wanted to.

 

This idea of the mages having the burden of magic may change if the writers wish, but as they wanted mages to be as dangerous as the world tells us, I'll keep thinking that if they are given free reign, things will go really bad just so the writers can make a point.

 

Also, comparing the Chasind and Avvar to the "civilized" world I find a bit strange, since they are not in the same situation. If the Avvar and Chasind are given large cities in which they can relax and not worry about everyday survival and strife, where they could ponder greater mysteries, I would bet more corruption will seep into their culture with those curious enough to fall to demons more often. The tribes that would eventually form Orlais and Fereldan lived like the Chasind and Avvar did, but they could not continue as they were once they decided to go with an agricultural society with large cities and such.

[Heimdall]

I agree, speaking out isn't an indication of failure, the rebellion and war that everyone saw coming was. Yes, each circle was different but they all had a uniform set of injustices imposed upon them regardless of the extreme: The rite of Annulment hanging over their heads, taken away from their familes, any children born to them stolen and given to the Chantry, etc. The irony of Vivienne is that while she was lucky enough to rise to prominence in a more permissive tower she was born in Rivain, a country with free Mages.

Had Vivienne remained there, in a twist of fate, she would likely be dead now as the Templars found the Mages there had the audacity to live peacefully with their families and use their abilities to guide and aid their people and deemed that they should all be put to death.

The rebellion and war could easily have been averted were it not for a handful of firebrand radicals. Yes there was some injustice but by all accounts the Templar crackdown that hit most circles and radicalized more mages only happened after Anders' terrorist attack. Even then Libertarians were still a minority and the rebellion would have been avoided were it not for the deliberate manipulation of the College by Adrian. The Circle of Magi as they were were stable and functional, though far from perfect. Rebellion was far from inevitable.

Nobody's saying that the Circles were perfect, just that they worked, achieved what they set out to do for the most part and most mages weren't suffering as the mages in Kirkwall did.

[Yaroub]

The alternative,just be ready to not miss the letter and the train.

Imagine how ridiculous for a mage to use a wand

[andy6915]

Chevaliers are expected to kill an Elf as part of their graduation.

 

Never heard this, and it sounds ridiculous enough to not take at face value. Source?

[Heimdall]

Never heard this, and it sounds ridiculous enough to not take at face value. Source?

Masked Empire

If I'm remembering correctly, as part of their graduation, Chevalier are basically told to go into the alienage and punish the elves for some crime, killing some random member of the community.

[andy6915]

Masked Empire

If I'm remembering correctly, as part of their graduation, Chevalier are basically told to go into the alienage and punish the elves for some crime, killing some random member of the community.

F*ck, I hate Orlais.

[SgtSteel91]

Also the Knightslayer dagger with it's weapon story:

 

The most famous elven criminal in Orlais was Alidda of Halamshiral, arrested in 4:45 Black for slaying three chevaliers. The trial, presided over by Divine Clemence I, revealed that Alidda had slain twelve chevaliers, in retaliation for the "graduation" tradition that sent knights into the slums to attack elves out past curfew. Alidda escaped and killed twenty more chevaliers, two in single combat, before she was cornered and, to avoid capture, cut her throat with her own dagger.

[ComedicSociopathy]

I think that's going a bit far. The Circle worked for over a thousand years. Few things work that long. Countries go through major transformations within hundreds of years, and many institutions die off. Yet this one lasted pretty damn long. And it was the doing of the first Inquisition.... the very organization we're so happy to adopt now. If it was really so bad, then what does that say about the Inquisition? 

 

I think Gaider puts the formation of the Circles in the proper context... they meant well:

 

The thing to remember as well is that the Circles were created to help Thedas as well. We had the Blights, and the first Circles were created shortly after the first Blight. The mages become vitally important when there's a Blight in order to combat the darkspawn. So it wasn't like the Chantry wanted to cripple the mages, they wanted them to have the power they needed to help humanity.

 

 

http://swooping-is-b...om/1286233.html

 

 

Before that, people were just hunting down mages wholesale, blaming them for everything. The Chantry wanted to protect them as much as protect everyone else. And they knew they needed mages for serious problems, like the Blights.

 

The Circles "worked" for hundreds of years, sure, but they haven't been unchanging institutions with perfect policies that have been remained the same for the entirely of those centuries.  The Rite of Annulment wasn't created at the founding of the Circles for instance and came about later in the Circle's history after it was believed that change was necessary. Also, while Gaider does claim that the Chantry didn't want to cripple the mages ability to help people that statement doesn't make much sense when the lore tells us that mages weren't allowed to do anything but light candles in Chantries during the Divine Age. Point is, the Circles only worked because they accepted change when it was needed and while they may have been a good idea in the past current events and new information have shown that perhaps it needs to be heavily reformed or even done away with entirely and replaced with something better. 

 

Oh, and the Avvar and Rivani's idea's on how to control their mages has existed for far longer then the Circle and haven't resulted in a massive war that nearly destroyed the world. Just saying. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

F*ck, I hate Orlais.

 

Orlais sucks...

 

[Daerog]

 

Oh, and the Avvar and Rivani's idea's on how to control their mages has existed for far longer then the Circle and haven't resulted in a massive war that nearly destroyed the world. Just saying. 

 

Rivani...rivaini... whatever, ya, sure, pass on them since we barely know anything about their problems... yet... (seems BioWare likes to introduce major problems for a group if that group is seen to be ideal in anyway, like the Dalish in Inquisition.)

 

However, the Avvar did try to start a war that would have destroyed civilization, and it was due to how they handle their mages. They worship spirits and have spirits possess their kids to train them and teach them, and so their magic and religious focus is on getting their beloved spirits to possess people. Enter some radicals and their worship of Hakkon. (If the Circle as a whole is to be blamed for the actions of some radicals, then it would be just as fair to blame the whole Avvar way of doing things on their clans of radicals, too.) They were lucky that The Ultimate Hero of History was there to prevent that problem and didn't have an Adrian in his group.

 

Also, the ways of the Avvar are not applicable to the nations of Thedas, unless everyone is cool with losing their castles, armor, large fields for farming, schools, books, etc.

 

The people of Fereldan (and possibly Orlais) were like the Avvar for some time, but they grew and became more agricultural and started to urbanize, so a new system had to be formed and the Avvar way is certainly not better than the Circle. They both have their own Harrowing, but at least one isn't forced to be an abomination and has a lot more knowledge, safety, and comfort available to them in a Circle.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Rivani...rivaini... whatever, ya, sure, pass on them since we barely know anything about their problems... yet... (seems BioWare likes to introduce major problems for a group if that group is seen to be ideal in anyway, like the Dalish in Inquisition.)

 

However, the Avvar did try to start a war that would have destroyed civilization, and it was due to how they handle their mages. They worship spirits and have spirits possess their kids to train them and teach them, and so their magic and religious focus is on getting their beloved spirits to possess people. Enter some radicals and their worship of Hakkon. (If the Circle as a whole is to be blamed for the actions of some radicals, then it would be just as fair to blame the whole Avvar way of doing things on their clans of radicals, too.) They were lucky that The Ultimate Hero of History was there to prevent that problem and didn't have an Adrian in his group.

 

 

Yeah, sure, the Riviani probably aren't prefect and Avvar have had problems with mage cultists going crazy, but like I said, both groups haven't pledged the entirety of Thedas in a terrible war that our Ultimate Hero has to clean up. The Riviani might one day do so and the Avvar were close to doing so, but the point that I wanted to get across was that in both societies mages live along with the people end result wasn't Tevinter or endless abominations that want to kill everyone. Sure will there be radicals and crazy people who want to kill everyone, but it doesn't matter whether you live in the Circle or the Frostbacks because that sort of thing is just going to happen regardless of what system you use. It's sort of the price in living in an inherently magical world. Shite just hits the fan sometimes and no amount of Templars or Seekers can prevent it. 

 

 

Also, the ways of the Avvar are not applicable to the nations of Thedas, unless everyone is cool with losing their castles, armor, large fields for farming, schools, books, etc.

 

Why would anyone have to lose all those things? Were talking about how they treat their mages, not how their society works in general. 

 

They both have their own Harrowing, but at least one isn't forced to be an abomination and has a lot more knowledge, safety, and comfort available to them in a Circle.

 

Is that really so bad? Not feeling safe, conformable and not having access to magical knowledge is bad sure, which is why a lot of mages decided to leave the Circle when they felt they were being denied those after Kirkwall happened, but the abomination thing isn't all that awful when the spirits summoned are benign and form a mentor-like relationship that's ultimately only temporary. The Harrowing on the other hand feels like a unnecessary rite of passage that doesn't ensure that mage won't fall victim to possession the very next day. 

 

The Circle works with spirits all the time and have an entire school magic dedicated to using them for safe purposes. Hell, the Jaws of Hakkon DLC reveals that the University of Orlais regularly use spirits to learn more about ancient history. Oh of course the abomination method of mage teaching could easily backfire if used on a global scale, but the Harrowing to me seems far less effective and risky. I mean how do you know that the random demon you summoned didn't turn out to be Nightmare or one of the Forgotten Ones? 

[Lord Frivolous]

Masked Empire

If I'm remembering correctly, as part of their graduation, Chevalier are basically told to go into the alienage and punish the elves for some crime, killing some random member of the community.

 

Yes, it's in the Masked Empire. The Chevaliers were given booze and told the elves in this alienage have 'offended the lord or lady of Orlais.' They, or some of them suspected it might be just a made-up excuse but they went along with it anyway.

[Daerog]

Yeah, sure, the Riviani probably aren't prefect and Avvar have had problems with mage cultists going crazy, but like I said, both groups haven't pledged the entirety of Thedas in a terrible war that our Ultimate Hero has to clean up. The Riviani might one day do so and the Avvar were close to doing so, but the point that I wanted to get across was that in both societies mages live along with the people end result wasn't Tevinter or endless abominations that want to kill everyone. Sure will there be radicals and crazy people who want to kill everyone, but it doesn't matter whether you live in the Circle or the Frostbacks because that sort of thing is just going to happen regardless of what system you use. It's sort of the price in living in an inherently magical world. Shite just hits the fan sometimes and no amount of Templars or Seekers can prevent it.



Why would anyone have to lose all those things? Were talking about how they treat their mages, not how their society works in general.


Is that really so bad? Not feeling safe, conformable and not having access to magical knowledge is bad sure, which is why a lot of mages decided to leave the Circle when they felt they were being denied those after Kirkwall happened, but the abomination thing isn't all that awful when the spirits summoned are benign and form a mentor-like relationship that's ultimately only temporary. The Harrowing on the other hand feels like a unnecessary rite of passage that doesn't ensure that mage won't fall victim to possession the very next day.

The Circle works with spirits all the time and have an entire school magic dedicated to using them for safe purposes. Hell, the Jaws of Hakkon DLC reveals that the University of Orlais regularly use spirits to learn more about ancient history. Oh of course the abomination method of mage teaching could easily backfire if used on a global scale, but the Harrowing to me seems far less effective and risky. I mean how do you know that the random demon you summoned didn't turn out to be Nightmare or one of the Forgotten Ones?

How do the Avvar know they aren't having their children be possessed by demons? Probably same way the Circle knows what demons they are pitting their trained and trusted mages against.

Is being an abomination bad? Seemed okay for Wynne, seemed like a nightmare for Anders. Was the Circle segregation so bad? Seemed wonderful for Finn, terrible for Anders. It is all about the individual, perhaps, but forcing another entity into me, who can twist my personality or kill me in my sleep does not seem like a good thing. Why possess? Why not teach like normal teachers and students? It is possibly about control and spirits giving themselves purpose, like aliens controlling the development of a human culture or something.

I'm not saying the Circle is the best possible route, but it is better than the Avvar way.

(Also, how a society functions is not independent from how mages are treated, so I was just saying that Orlais cannot live like the Avvar and would need a different way of handling mages. They live in luxury, with greater temptations and ambitions, so having mages just be like everyone else won't work. Tevinter is fine with the risks since mages rule, but I doubt the average person will be.)

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Never heard this, and it sounds ridiculous enough to not take at face value. Source?

 

Well it's not specifically about killing elves. The test was about following orders. So they were told to meet out random havoc on alienage elves because they were the weakest and most powerless people of Orlais.

 

There is also a weapon in Dragon Age Inquisition that confirms this initiation ritual. I think it's called Chevalier's Bane or something. Apparently there was an elven women who killed dozens of Chevaliers with it as revenge for this practice before she was caught and killed.

[Daerog]

Orlais has a bit of Sparta in it.

[Akkos]

Well it's not specifically about killing elves. The test was about following orders. So they were told to meet out random havoc on alienage elves because they were the weakest and most powerless people of Orlais.

 

There is also a weapon in Dragon Age Inquisition that confirms this initiation ritual. I think it's called Chevalier's Bane or something. Apparently there was an elven women who killed dozens of Chevaliers with it as revenge for this practice before she was caught and killed.

 

Mind you sweetheart. She wasn't caught. She killed herself by cutting her own throat.. So I read somewhere...

 

 

Edit: Most specifically, Alidda from Halamshiral. She is not from the slums alienage by the way.

[Labrev]

How can anyone thinking possession of "benign" spirits is okay and in any way desirable after Anders/Justice?


The Templars have every right to slaughter fools who do that.

[Vit246]

How can anyone thinking possession of "benign" spirits is okay and in any way desirable after Anders/Justice?


The Templars have every right to slaughter fools who do that.

 

Anders was an emotionally unstable person. He could never be a candidate for something like a Rivaini Seer tradition.

Also, Wynne handled it just fine. She was emotionally stable.

[Sports72Xtrm]

How do the Avvar know they aren't having their children be possessed by demons? Probably same way the Circle knows what demons they are pitting their trained and trusted mages against.

Is being an abomination bad? Seemed okay for Wynne, seemed like a nightmare for Anders. Was the Circle segregation so bad? Seemed wonderful for Finn, terrible for Anders. It is all about the individual, perhaps, but forcing another entity into me, who can twist my personality or kill me in my sleep does not seem like a good thing. Why possess? Why not teach like normal teachers and students? It is possibly about control and spirits giving themselves purpose, like aliens controlling the development of a human culture or something.

I'm not saying the Circle is the best possible route, but it is better than the Avvar way.

(Also, how a society functions is not independent from how mages are treated, so I was just saying that Orlais cannot live like the Avvar and would need a different way of handling mages. They live in luxury, with greater temptations and ambitions, so having mages just be like everyone else won't work. Tevinter is fine with the risks since mages rule, but I doubt the average person will be.)

Circle mages don't choose what demons that particular mage will face in the Fade, let alone in the Harrowing. If a mage dreams, it's like russian roulette. If you dream up a forbidden one or a nightmare demon, you're screwed because the circle magic is limited. Another benefit of the avvar method is it provides more knowledge of magic that no circle magic can replicate because it involves mastering innate ability  (the ability to "feel" the magic as Malcolm Hawke says, not simply be a tool or a toil) that you can't master from books. It better prepares mages with new ways of magic, that's why hedge magic is so unique. It's a better judge of a mage's preparedness than any Harrowing or templar can judge. And it seems to be a better templar method in keeping bad mages in  check that doesn't dehumanize the mages' as a collective. And the symbiotic relationship is only temporary. Take Kirkwall, some of the mages' could be Harrowed (e.g, Huon and Evelina) and yet still fall to abominations status.

[Kakistos_]

The rebellion and war could easily have been averted were it not for a handful of firebrand radicals. Yes there was some injustice but by all accounts the Templar crackdown that hit most circles and radicalized more mages only happened after Anders' terrorist attack. Even then Libertarians were still a minority and the rebellion would have been avoided were it not for the deliberate manipulation of the College by Adrian. The Circle of Magi as they were were stable and functional, though far from perfect. Rebellion was far from inevitable.

Nobody's saying that the Circles were perfect, just that they worked, achieved what they set out to do for the most part and most mages weren't suffering as the mages in Kirkwall did.

The rebellion and war were on the way long before Anders'/Justice's actions. Meredith had already called for the Right of Annulment before Anders/Justice destroyed the Chantry. Hostilities between Mage and Templar were at a head, all Anders'Justice did was give it that final little push. There has never been a period of time in which Mages unlucky enough to be born in Andrastian nations were happy with their predicament.

 

As Anders stated, despite all the Chantry warning about Demons and Abominations the most common way for a Mage to die is by suicide. Sexual abuse, brutality and abuse of the Rite of Tranquility by Templars was also not uncommon. Kirkwall apparently committed the worse of these offenses but the aforementioned injustices that the Chantry let slide were not limited to or unique to Kirkwall. The Rite of Annulment had been executed 13 times since the founding of the Circle and before Kirkwall. The rebellion was not the result of the actions of one random Mage one day, that was straw breaking the camels back, the rebellion happened after centuries of systematic abuse.

 

When you say that "The Circle worked" you are looking at it from only one point of view; the Chantry's. The Chantry is a religious institution. The did not make their decisions based off of facts and evidence but faith, of which there are many variants in Thedas. No one is saying that Magic and Abominations aren't dangerous or that Mages shouldn't be trained but those justifications for imprisoning Mages falls flat out of the Chantry's mouth when in fact free Mages "works". Having free Mages with no restrictions has "worked" long before the Chantry and "works" despite of it today.

[Daerog]

Circle mages don't choose what demons that particular mage will face in the Fade, let alone in the Harrowing. If a mage dreams, it's like russian roulette. If you dream up a forbidden one or a nightmare demon, you're screwed because the circle magic is limited. Another benefit of the avvar method is it provides more knowledge of magic that no circle magic can replicate because it involves mastering innate ability  (the ability to "feel" the magic as Malcolm Hawke says, not simply be a tool or a toil) that you can't master from books. It better prepares mages with new ways of magic, that's why hedge magic is so unique. It's a better judge of a mage's preparedness than any Harrowing or templar can judge. And it seems to be a better templar method in keeping bad mages in  check that doesn't dehumanize the mages' as a collective. And the symbiotic relationship is only temporary. Take Kirkwall, some of the mages' could be Harrowed (e.g, Huon and Evelina) and yet still fall to abominations status.

 

The Harrowing is a "controlled" (as controlled as one can make it) test. If a mage can't handle that, then they won't be able to handle it in the future, when the test could be at any random moment rather than being told "prepare now, because you will be tested now."

 

While the spirit may have more knowledge on the Fade, they are not mortals and don't know how a mortal operates. They probably do possession so the spirit gets an idea on what being a mortal mage is like, but having another essence/identity share a body I find to be risky and unnecessary. It is best for mages to train mages, and not need a spirit to possess anyone. Have a spirit healer on hand that can commune and seek advice, okay, fine, if that's what one wants, but the possession is too far.

 

If I was a mage, I'd rather have my skill be tested to prove I was not weak rather than on the opinion of a spirit who would kill me as I slept if I was deemed a failure. Having a templar kill me when I fail would give me more of a shot at life than a spirit killing me before the possibility of failing.

 

It is true that the Harrowing does not prevent one from becoming an abomination in the future, but it tells the Circle that the mage has a good chance to live a long life and is capable of resisting. An Avvar is given no test on if he or she is able to resist evil spirits, their culture is dependent on spirits, and they are no more capable of resisting abomination-hood as a Circle mage.

 

If a child dies in their sleep, it is just assumed that the spirit was right to do so. There is no discussion on it, the spirit is not questioned.

 

 

Of course, this is just a perspective. This is a fictional world that I don't have any real investment in. However, the way the Avvar went about handling their mages horrified me more than when Origins opened up with the Mage origin. There are some bad Towers like there are some bad clans, but considering the general idea behind the two ways of dealing with mages, I'd rather go into a Circle Tower.