206 réponses à ce sujet

[andy6915]

The Harrowing is a "controlled" (as controlled as one can make it) test. If a mage can't handle that, then they won't be able to handle it in the future, when the test could be at any random moment rather than being told "prepare now, because you will be tested now."

While the spirit may have more knowledge on the Fade, they are not mortals and don't know how a mortal operates. They probably do possession so the spirit gets an idea on what being a mortal mage is like, but having another essence/identity share a body I find to be risky and unnecessary. It is best for mages to train mages, and not need a spirit to possess anyone. Have a spirit healer on hand that can commune and seek advice, okay, fine, if that's what one wants, but the possession is too far.

If I was a mage, I'd rather have my skill be tested to prove I was not weak rather than on the opinion of a spirit who would kill me as I slept if I was deemed a failure. Having a templar kill me when I fail would give me more of a shot at life than a spirit killing me before the possibility of failing.

It is true that the Harrowing does not prevent one from becoming an abomination in the future, but it tells the Circle that the mage has a good chance to live a long life and is capable of resisting. An Avvar is given no test on if he or she is able to resist evil spirits, their culture is dependent on spirits, and they are no more capable of resisting abomination-hood as a Circle mage.

If a child dies in their sleep, it is just assumed that the spirit was right to do so. There is no discussion on it, the spirit is not questioned.


Of course, this is just a perspective. This is a fictional world that I don't have any real investment in. However, the way the Avvar went about handling their mages horrified me more than when Origins opened up with the Mage origin. There are some bad Towers like there are some bad clans, but considering the general idea behind the two ways of dealing with mages, I'd rather go into a Circle Tower.

The same "controlled" test that results in the mage Hero of Ferelden meeting a freaking pride demon during their harrowing, that didn't possess them simply because they didn't feel like doing so? Wow, what a safe system. It threw a simple apprentice up against the strongest demon there is by pure accident.

You sense the sarcasm?

[SgtSteel91]

The same "controlled" test that results in the mage Hero of Ferelden meeting a freaking pride demon during their harrowing, that didn't possess them simply because they didn't feel like doing so? Wow, what a safe system. It threw a simple apprentice up against the strongest demon there is by pure accident.

You sense the sarcasm?

 

Or the same test with a Non-Mage, and one who was trained by an Religious Order who de-humanize Mages, deciding if they are 'weak' and kill them?

[Labrev]

Anders was an emotionally unstable person. He could never be a candidate for something like a Rivaini Seer tradition.

Also, Wynne handled it just fine. She was emotionally stable.

 

Anders was not "unstable." He had some deep-seeded anger, but nothing all that unusual for any normal human. If you have to be a nun like Wynne to make it work then most people are not going to. Lots of people have some bottled-up feelings of hate, sorrow, or what have you.

 

It is a stupid practice.

[SgtSteel91]

Anders was not "unstable." He had some deep-seeded anger, but nothing all that unusual for any normal human. If you have to be a nun like Wynne to make it work then most people are not going to. Lots of people have some bottled-up feelings of hate, sorrow, or what have you.

 

It is a stupid practice.

 

Jaws of Hakkon does well to show both ends, with Sigrid being "stable" with her Spirit guide since they were together for a long time and having a good relationship and Grandin being not so "stable" with the Rage Demon who possessed him near death since their common ground is getting revenge.

[Akkos]

Jaws of Hakkon does well to show both ends, with Sigrid being "stable" with her Spirit guide since they were together for a long time and having a good relationship and Grandin being not so "stable" with the Rage Demon who possessed him near death since their common ground is getting revenge.

 

But those two mages you mention are like left in one corner or exiled and have almost no relation with their fellow clan/mates. Both of them are "unstable".

Is that the future you hold for your former circle mages?

[Urzon]

How can anyone thinking possession of "benign" spirits is okay and in any way desirable after Anders/Justice?

I think the difference shouldn't be between the spirit's supposed "benign" or malign nature, but whether or not the spirit in question is more proactive or reactive.

Wynne got accidently possessed by a spirit of Faith. It was a very strong spirit magically, but it seemed content to let Wynne keep control of her body by in large. The only time it really reacted to anything was usually either when Wynne was in mortal danger or if she purposely called upon its help in a matter.

Justice, even in DAA, was very proactive in its pursuit of things it deemed a crime or unjust. He sought to take down the Baroness in the Blackmarsh for her treatment of the peasants, tried to make amends to Kristoff's wife (for possibly "years") after possessing her husband's dead body, and in the time between DAA and DA2 he convinced Anders to take a more active role in the fight for mage freedoms. We all know how that turned out.

Minus any possibly corruption from mortal emotions, proactive demons and spirits would be much more dangerous if allowed to possess someone or enter into Thedas just for the fact that they want to DO stuff. Reactive demons and spirits, while still potentially dangerous, would be content within its vassal as long was what it embodies is satisfied and isn't threatened too often.

[andy6915]

I think the difference shouldn't be between the spirit's supposed "benign" or malign nature, but whether or not the spirit in question is more proactive or reactive.

Wynne got accidently possessed by a spirit of Faith. It was a very strong spirit magically, but it seemed content to let Wynne keep control of her body by in large. The only time it really reacted to anything was usually either when Wynne was in mortal danger or if she purposely called upon its help in a matter.

Justice, even in DAA, was very proactive in its pursuit of things it deemed a crime or unjust. He sought to take down the Baroness in the Blackmarsh for her treatment of the peasants, tried to make amends to Kristoff's wife (for possibly "years") after possessing her husband's dead body, and in the time between DAA and DA2 he convinced Anders to take a more active role in the fight for mage freedoms. We all know how that turned out.

Minus any possibly corruption from mortal emotions, proactive demons and spirits would be much more dangerous if allowed to possess someone or enter into Thedas just for the fact that they want to DO stuff. Reactive demons and spirits, while still potentially dangerous, would be content within its vassal as long was what it embodies is satisfied and isn't threatened too often.

 

 

Adding to this:

 

And no one try to say the Avvar are stupid for letting spirits possess them intentionally... The chantry does it too. Or did you forget the process of making a Seeker?

[Urzon]

Adding to this:
 
And no one try to say the Avvar are stupid for letting spirits possess them intentionally... The chantry does it too. Or did you forget the process of making a Seeker?

The tranquil Seekers were touched by a spirit of faith to reverse their tranquility and empower them for whatever reason. It wasn't a full on possession. I think it's also kinda implied that only the Lord/Lady Seeker, or whoever held their Book of Secrets, actually knew what was going on during their Vigil. The process must have been very subtle if even all the people that did the Vigil wasn't even aware of what was going on.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I imagine the College would function like the Circle, but without Harrowings or templars. Mages can deal with their fellows becoming abominations and hunt down maleficars (though maybe they'd eventually want to recruit templars). I think the number of abominations will go down without that element of fear and desperation.

 

The College would teach mages to control their power (those that can't would perhaps need to remain within the College under lifetime supervision?), and perhaps mages would need to be registered once training is complete. They could work to help society. It'd be slow to trust, but things like healing and enchantments would go a long way.

 

This says everything

[andy6915]

The tranquil Seekers were touched by a spirit of faith to reverse their tranquility and empower them for whatever reason. It wasn't a full on possession. I think it's also kinda implied that only the Lord/Lady Seeker, or whoever held their Book of Secrets, actually knew what was going on during their Vigil. The process must have been very subtle if even all the people that did the Vigil wasn't even aware of what was going on.

What? I'm nearly certain that they have the spirit possess them like what happened with Wynne, all seekers have a spirit inside them. That's why they can't be possessed, a person can't be double possessed. The place a demon would reside in then is already occupied. They don't merely get touched by it, it resides in them for the rest of their life.

[Aren]

As logical as that paranoia may be, Loghain himself was selling people into slavery.

Loghain was not killing elf for amusement or graduation,again i fail to see what this point has to do with the Chavaliers graduation you're shifting one argument with another.

[Aren]

 Chantry point of view that free Mages = Tevinter 2.0 wrong.

I'm willing to believe that after 5 blights (started by 7 foolish mages and 5 crazy old gods)a chantry destroyed  and one hole into the sky they are not willing to give a chance.

Also i genuinely believe that you are focusing too much the attention on slavery,the concern of the circle are primarily the demons.

[SgtSteel91]

But those two mages you mention are like left in one corner or exiled and have almost no relation with their fellow clan/mates. Both of them are "unstable".

Is that the future you hold for your former circle mages?

 

You can recruit Sigrid, even have her attend an Orlesian party for a 'cultured exchange' and nothing goes wrong. 

[Urzon]

What? I'm nearly certain that they have the spirit possess them like what happened with Wynne, all seekers have a spirit inside them. That's why they can't be possessed, a person can't be double possessed. The place a demon would reside in then is already occupied. They don't merely get touched by it, it resides in them for the rest of their life.

If you question Cassandra about it afterwards, she doesn't mention anything about possession. She just says the spirit summoned during their Vigil touches their mind. As for the not being able to be possessed, I'd imagine that it another sort of perk/power, to go along with the immunity to mind control and being able to boil a mage or Templar's blood, the Seekers get after the process.

I always thought of the whole process as akin to how a Spirit Warrior gets their ability.

[Daerog]

The same "controlled" test that results in the mage Hero of Ferelden meeting a freaking pride demon during their harrowing, that didn't possess them simply because they didn't feel like doing so? Wow, what a safe system. It threw a simple apprentice up against the strongest demon there is by pure accident.

You sense the sarcasm?

 

I never said it was safe.

 

The life of a mage is never safe. Never. Demons whisper to mages constantly, or at least that is how it was kind of portrayed in the latest novel.

 

The mage is capable of resisting pride demons in the Fade, a demon cannot force one to be possessed and become an abomination, one has to "open the door" a little. That is what the demon tried and failed to do for the mage origin, trick the mage to open up, and since the mage was prepared for a test, the mage was more ready than if it just happened randomly one night.

 

A mage will have to face a demon sooner or later, at least they can show everyone that they are capable of resisting temptation. In Avvar society, if a spirit, not a mortal, deems you too weak or dangerous, you are killed without a test. How safe is that? The idea that spirits are more benevolent and knowledgeable (of the Fade, yes, other stuff? No) than mortals is complete crap.

[Daerog]

If you question Cassandra about it afterwards, she doesn't mention anything about possession. She just says the spirit summoned during their Vigil touches their mind. As for the not being able to be possessed, I'd imagine that it another sort of perk/power, to go along with the immunity to mind control and being able to boil a mage or Templar's blood, the Seekers get after the process.

I always thought of the whole process as akin to how a Spirit Warrior gets their ability.

 

Ya, the Seekers are not possessed. It is like that one Tranquil in Asunder. He was not possessed; he just needed the spirit/demon to touch his mind and then he was no longer Tranquil... although very emotionally unstable.

 

That is how the whole Seeker thing works, go Tranquil, then be "touched" by a spirit, which is the only way known to reverse Tranquility.

 

Edit: Ya, Pharamond was possessed for a time, but even after being seperated from the demon he was no longer Tranquil and nothing from the Seekers suggest that the Spirit of Faith stays with them.

[Daerog]

You can recruit Sigrid, even have her attend an Orlesian party for a 'cultured exchange' and nothing goes wrong. 

 

Every abomination is different. You have Wynne who was totally fine (now that Templar is an abomination and doing fine), Anders was fine for some years before going absolutely bonkers, and then we have all the other abominations we run into and fight.

 

Sigrid could go like Wynne or Anders, but for now she is fine. To force the separation may cause emotional trauma for her seeing how dependent she is on the spirit, I believe it best to counsel her into being more independent and trusting in others around her so she can let go of the spirit before the two personalities merge like with Anders...

 

 I recruited her to show how powerful my Inquisition was to the world and open up the minds of others a bit to be compassionate to people in situations like Wynne and such, but still opposing the idea that being an abomination is a good thing.

[The Baconer]

I won't believe the Seeker process ends at being "touched", especially since no actual clarification has been given on how it works. Being temporarily inhabited by a spirit cured Pharamond of Tranquility, yes, but as far as we know it didn't give him permanent magical abilities. Now, what are the examples, that we know of, where such powers are obtained via interaction with spirits (most importantly, immunity to possession). Wynne and Anders.

 

Also note that Lucius said that "we are abominations, Cassandra". This is a word with very specific connotations in Thedas, and I don't think his use of it just happened to be a coincidence.

 

 

Loghain was not killing elf for amusement or graduation,again i fail to see what this point has to do with the Chavaliers graduation you're shifting one argument with another.

 

I'm not shifting arguments, just noting that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[Vit246]

*sigh*

Are we forgetting about Rivain and its Seers?

[Daerog]

The Seers are not forgotten, it's just barely anything is known about them.

 

They are knowledgeable on spirits, as much or moreso than Tevinter, and spirits go in and out of them. Such practices are discouraged in Thedas, but it is a part of Rivaini culture, kind of like how the Mortalitasi have a prominent place in Nevarran culture.

 

Do they sometimes go crazy? Can they be enslaved to spirits? Do the spirits have a strong say in their everyday life like with the Avvar? Are there some Seer dissidents who enslave spirits? Have there been great Seer villains or heroes? I don't know.

[Daerog]

I won't believe the Seeker process ends at being "touched", especially since no actual clarification has been given on how it works. Being temporarily inhabited by a spirit cured Pharamond of Tranquility, yes, but as far as we know it didn't give him permanent magical abilities. Now, what are the examples, that we know of, where such powers are obtained via interaction with spirits (most importantly, immunity to possession). Wynne and Anders.

 

Also note that Lucius said that "we are abominations, Cassandra". This is a word with very specific connotations in Thedas, and I don't think his use of it just happened to be a coincidence.

 

 

Good point on the abominations quote from Lucius. My guess is that it was just a slip on the part of the writers and not meaning that they are possessed by Spirits of Faith, but I could be wrong.

 

The difference between Wynne/Anders and the Seekers is that they were not made Tranquil first, and the Seekers know that Tranquility followed by reversing it is different between mages and mundanes, which is why there have never been mage Seekers even though their original leader in the Inquisition was a mage. Other leaders or important members in the original Inquisition were mages as well.

 

This information is new, and it is possible that if a mundane is made Tranquil and then has a strong connection to the Fade in some way (like interacting with a spirit), that they obtain some sort of influence over magical things. Maybe a mundane can be turned into a mage somehow?

 

Still, if Cassandra found out that she was an abomination and that all Seekers are abominations, I would have thought she would have pointed that out more, but instead she is cool and reserved and thinking about continuing the Seekers.

[The Baconer]

Good point on the abominations quote from Lucius. My guess is that it was just a slip on the part of the writers and not meaning that they are possessed by Spirits of Faith, but I could be wrong.

 

The difference between Wynne/Anders and the Seekers is that they were not made Tranquil first, and the Seekers know that Tranquility followed by reversing it is different between mages and mundanes, which is why there have never been mage Seekers even though their original leader in the Inquisition was a mage. Other leaders or important members in the original Inquisition were mages as well.

 

This information is new, and it is possible that if a mundane is made Tranquil and then has a strong connection to the Fade in some way (like interacting with a spirit), that they obtain some sort of influence over magical things. Maybe a mundane can be turned into a mage somehow?

 

That Tranquility is different between mundanes and mages is something never stated or elaborated upon. Our only reference to mages being within the Seekers is that one tried to join the order at some point, failed to attract a spirit, and that this would lead to the application of Tranquility as we know it. Beyond that, there is, again, no explanation or statement of the vigil not being possible for mages, or why.

 

Also, Ameridan was not the original leader of the first Inquisition, but the last person to assume the title before the first Inquisition disbanded.

 

 

Still, if Cassandra found out that she was an abomination and that all Seekers are abominations, I would have thought she would have pointed that out more, but instead she is cool and reserved and thinking about continuing the Seekers.

 

And, yet, she is still rather cryptic about the process, how exactly the Seekers became corrupted, or what she actually intends to do if they are to be reformed. I like Cassandra, but I feel that she is... irrationally sentimental when it comes to the Seekers.

[Daerog]

Thanks for the clarification on Ameridan.

 

Ya, it is all a bit mysterious, but I would have just guessed she would have been more horrified about the whole thing if she read that she has a Spirit of Faith in her, similar to Wynne in a way, and that the spirits never helped the other Seekers, especially that one guy who had a demon tearing him apart on the inside.

 

Still, good points.

 

(On a side note, the Promisers were the more interesting bit about the Seekers for me. I was thinking how one could make a good story with an anti-hero/villain main character who was a Promiser. Maybe have him or her be a Spirit Warrior or something, who wants to hit the reset button on the world, start over with the tribal system again, remove Orlais, Fereldan, Nevarra, and Tevinter... the Qunari as well, I guess. Not the people, just the political/cultural structures or whatever, destroy the countries and have people rebuild. The plot wouldn't have to center around the MC plotting against the world powers, but just have it be his or her personal view and desire and have the MC have to face other villains and/or heroes, like corrupt Magisters or Counts or demons.)

 

 

 

 

Anyway, back on topic, the world could also just accept that mages are blessed by the Maker with the burden and responsibility of magehood and let them run the Chantry at the very least.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Why is that only Templars and the Chantry are allowed to use lyrium? Why can't nations like Ferelden and Orlais buy the stuff from the dwarves and train their guardsmen and knights to protect their own cities and small towns? Wouldn't that make the idea of mages being able to work around like normal people more feasible if most populated places were defended by anti-magical forces that could react to unstable abominations and evil blood mages. 

 

The only lore reason I could find was some religious Chantry law that made it illegal for anyone but them to use the stuff, which to me sounds like the Chantry trying to create a monopoly rather then actually providing the best protection for the people.