Anders was not "unstable." He had some deep-seeded anger, but nothing all that unusual for any normal human. If you have to be a nun like Wynne to make it work then most people are not going to. Lots of people have some bottled-up feelings of hate, sorrow, or what have you.
It is a stupid practice.
Precisely. And when it came down to it even Wynne ended up fighting against the Templars.
Why is that only Templars and the Chantry are allowed to use lyrium? Why can't nations like Ferelden and Orlais buy the stuff from the dwarves and train their guardsmen and knights to protect their own cities and small towns? Wouldn't that make the idea of mages being able to work around like normal people more feasible if most populated places were defended by anti-magical forces that could react to unstable abominations and evil blood mages.
The only lore reason I could find was some religious Chantry law that made it illegal for anyone but them to use the stuff, which to me sounds like the Chantry trying to create a monopoly rather then actually providing the best protection for the people.
It's quite possible that this system is generally seen as the best way to provide protection. The Chantry was an international and well-organized entity, and I can see the various kingdoms not liking the idea of shouldering the cost of Lyrium, or having their guardsmen getting hooked to the stuff.
I'm willing to believe that after 5 blights (started by 7 foolish mages and 5 crazy old gods)a chantry destroyed and one hole into the sky they are not willing to give a chance.
Also i genuinely believe that you are focusing too much the attention on slavery,the concern of the circle are primarily the demons.
You are justifying the forced confinement of an entire group of people based on the actions of a handful of individuals. Yes, seven individual Mages unleashed the blight onto the world, or so the Chantry would have everyone believe. Inquisition introduced possible hints to an alternative origin of Darkspawn. You are forgetting that Tevinter and Elvhen Mages were also instrumental in the founding and creation of Grey Wardens.
It was they who deduced that the only way to finally kill an Archdemon is to possess the taint. It was they who developed the Joining which is in fact a Blood Magic Ritual. So while seven Mages would have brought doom upon the world countless others have fought and sacrificed their lives as Grey Wardens to save it and make it possible for others to do the same. I would say that the universal Mage Paragon/Renegade meter has leveled out, no?
As for Demons this is more justification, religious pov, and fear mongering on the Chantry's part. The Chantry maintains that without their oversight that Mages would soon fall to Blood Magic and Demons while in reality Abominations are rare and in a vast majority of cases in-game Mages were pushed down that road by the Chantry itself. The Chantry causes more Abominations than it prevents. As stated by myself and others, there are societies in Thedas in which Mages are free.
They even willingly seek out Spirits and practice Blood Magic openly. They have no Circles or Templars and yet there ARE NOT Abominations lurking behind every corner. Some of these practices and traditions have existed longer than the Chantry itself and the free Mages have clearly learned how to minimize the danger. When it comes to Spirits and Demons free Mage cultures have superior methods in dealing with them as events like the Broken Circle in Ferelden and Kirkwall don't happen and would likely do great damage to the smaller populations.
As stated by Solas, some Magic, like the magic Dalish Keppers is more practical than the Circle's because they are not ruled by the oversight of a religions institution that tells them what magic is 'good' or 'bad'. The Chantry's RELIGION says one thing but reality shows us another. Very similar to real life.
It's quite possible that this system is generally seen as the best way to provide protection. The Chantry was an international and well-organized entity, and I can see the various kingdoms not liking the idea of shouldering the cost of Lyrium, or having their guardsmen getting hooked to the stuff.
Still, the Templars can't be everywhere, especially with most of their forces stuck in Circle towers, and I'd imagine that most rulers wouldn't be too bothered by the idea of making a fraction of their military forces into drug addicts that can only gain relief by getting Lyrium from them. The Chantry didn't seem to care that much so why would they? It's a good disgustingly manipulative way to ensure loyalty after all.
Besides, forces like the chevailers receive Templar training to fight against magical foes anyway, so why not just give them Lyrium to ensure their effectiveness.
Mind you sweetheart. She wasn't caught. She killed herself by cutting her own throat.. So I read somewhere...
Edit: Most specifically, Alidda from Halamshiral. She is not from the slums alienage by the way.
Yeah but she did that because she was cornered, didn't she?
I think BioWare needs to have a mage companion who is totally fine up until some random point 3/4 of the way through the campaign where they just lose it and have to be put down after they destroy a whole village. Similar to the villain mages we see, and a bit like Anders, but have the mage be a very likable and well meaning person who isn't a radical like Anders. Have the person be a LI, too.
(Even though the demonic, destructive abominations are not common, they are not as common as they could be and many mages have been protected by the Chantry and Circle over the years who would otherwise have been killed or fallen to demons... although, I guess they can't always help the children who become abominations and destroy villages, like Connor and Meredith's sister.)
That, or give into the idealism people want on these boards, where mages live in harmony (if not peace) with mundanes. Just toss out any remaining "dark" and just go high fantasy.
Y'know what would be awesome? If a mage PC would hear demons whispering at random points in the game and have a non-canon game over option of letting themselves get possessed. It would work with the lore we have been given over time.
More things will probably be put into perspective once a game goes to Tevinter. Maybe they have task forces specific to hunting criminal mages and taking down abominations.
Eh, I see this series going with nations having their own Circles and Templars and go about buying their own lyrium, like ComedicSociopathy was saying, so at least many different systems can be done and tried to see which works best, or at least best for that specific culture.
I won't believe the Seeker process ends at being "touched", especially since no actual clarification has been given on how it works. Being temporarily inhabited by a spirit cured Pharamond of Tranquility, yes, but as far as we know it didn't give him permanent magical abilities. Now, what are the examples, that we know of, where such powers are obtained via interaction with spirits (most importantly, immunity to possession). Wynne and Anders.
Also note that Lucius said that "we are abominations, Cassandra". This is a word with very specific connotations in Thedas, and I don't think his use of it just happened to be a coincidence.
A spirit touching a Tranquil to reverse that condition seems to be all about reopening that person's connection to the Fade. It could be possible that Pharamond didn't gain any new permanent magical abilities because he was already a mage, thus already having a wide range of magically abilities because of his deep connection to the Fade, beforehand. So renewing his connection to the Fade only brought him back to an emotionally unstable square one on the magical scale.
Pharamond was set to be executed, with his emotional instability being cited as the reason. However, Seekers who are supposedly touched by spirits are immune to possession. Does that characteristic not extend to him? If it did, what could possibly be the justification for covering this up, beyond base cartoon villainy, when it would generally be a boon to all parties involved?
Is the immunity to possession dependent on the type of spirit interacted with? Or the conditions in which the Rite is applied? The Seekers won't tell us, Cassandra won't tell us, published lore won't tell us. That is a red flag indicative of something, and for the moment I choose to believe it points to the Seekers being ignorant of their Rite's true consequences, or them being continuously secretive.
It's possible that he meant the spirit possessed type of abomination, but that gets a bit vague in context with his whole statement. He isn't talking about any sort of possession when saying that to Cassandra. He was talking about how the Seekers were wrong to protect a decaying world that they themselves helped to create.
Again, that is a word with very specific implications in the lore. I find the idea that he used it in its conventional sense, especially given the context, too distinct to be coincidental. Especially if the writers could have chosen from a multitude of different phrases that wouldn't have aroused such suspicion... in the event that it wasn't their intent.
Plus, if the Cassandra and the Seekers had something like a spirit of Faith secretly possessing them and giving them magical powers, I'm pretty sure people like Solas and Cole would be able to tell right off the bat and possible said something about it. It would be kinda hard NOT to discuss the fact that someone who is very distrustful of spirits secretly has had a spirit residing in her this entire time.
Cole himself was completely unaware of his own nature until he was confronted by Lambert. A Seeker can't recall the time they were literally branded with Lyrium. Given these factors, and the other known examples of mage gaining permanent abilities from spirit interactions, as well as immunity to possession, there is a lot of cause to doubt the Seeker initiation is as simple as Cassandra lets on, and she might not even realize it.
Yeah but she did that because she was cornered, didn't she?
Well she was facing trial by Divine Renata¿?, Escaped by killing more people and then suicide.
Pharamond was set to be executed, with his emotional instability being cited as the reason. However, Seekers who are supposedly touched by spirits are immune to possession. Does that characteristic not extend to him? If it did, what could possibly be the justification for covering this up, beyond base cartoon villainy, when it would generally be a boon to all parties involved?
Considering that the Seeker's Book of Secrets said they were never going to reveal the knowledge about the reversal of the Rite and how Seekers are made, cartoon villainy or straight out apathy for Pharamond and the situation for the Tranquil is entirely possibly. They didn't see the need to reveal one of their Orders greatest secrets just to be able to say there's a possibility that Pharamond might be immune to possession now.
Is the immunity to possession dependent on the type of spirit interacted with? Or the conditions in which the Rite is applied? The Seekers won't tell us, Cassandra won't tell us, published lore won't tell us. That is a red flag indicative of something, and for the moment I choose to believe it points to the Seekers being ignorant of their Rite's true consequences, or them being continuously secretive.
I doubt it's them being continuously secretive on their part. After Cassandra got the Book and gave her speech about the Order not keeping secrets any longer, why would she suddenly withhold that information from someone she deeply trusts, the Inquisitor, all of a sudden? Especially after the Inquisitor heard the same thing as she did from the Lord Seeker? After reading the book, it shouldn't have been all that difficult to say, "Well... It seem the Lord Seeker was correct. My entire Order was unknowingly abominations of Faith it seems."
Cole himself was completely unaware of his own nature until he was confronted by Lambert. A Seeker can't recall the time they were literally branded with Lyrium. Given these factors, and the other known examples of mage gaining permanent abilities from spirit interactions, as well as immunity to possession, there is a lot of cause to doubt the Seeker initiation is as simple as Cassandra lets on, and she might not even realize it.
The question wasn't about Cassandra knowing her possibly nature though. It was about if she was unknowingly possessed why did Solas, an expert in the Fade and spirits, or Cole, and actual spirit, not say anything about it through the whole game? The closest was when Cole said she was "touched" by a spirit, which is the same terminology that Cassandra and codex the Rite of Tranquility uses, not possessed. If it did turn out she was possessed, I would imagine there would have been a much larger discourse on the matter after that personal quest between them.
Considering that the Seeker's Book of Secrets said they were never going to reveal the knowledge about the reversal of the Rite and how Seekers are made, cartoon villainy or straight out apathy for Pharamond and the situation for the Tranquil is entirely possibly. They didn't see the need to reveal one of their Orders greatest secrets just to be able to say there's a possibility that Pharamond might be immune to possession now.
It's not so much about Pharamond in particular, but the implication that the abomination problem could be potentially "solved" or at least abated on a larger scale. The act of covering it up caused the very conflict their organization was supposed to prevent.
And if that's all for apathy or keeping secrets, there is no rehabilitating the Seekers.
I doubt it's them being continuously secretive on their part. After Cassandra got the Book and gave her speech about the Order not keeping secrets any longer, why would she suddenly withhold that information from someone she deeply trusts, the Inquisitor, all of a sudden? Especially after the Inquisitor heard the same thing as she did from the Lord Seeker? After reading the book, it shouldn't have been all that difficult to say, "Well... It seem the Lord Seeker was correct. My entire Order was unknowingly abominations of Faith it seems."
Well, she doesn't reveal what other secrets they were hiding (and "let fester"), she states that Lucius "wasn't wrong" about the Order but not which parts specifically (I mean, a good 90% of what he says is utter insanity), and, again, neither does she address if the results would really be different for mages, and why.
Other critical details left out include: How does one not notice they were branded with Lyrium? If the Lord Seeker is supposed to be the only person at any one time to actually know of it, do they have to personally oversee each initiation? How is that possible while also maintaining their other duties?
The question wasn't about Cassandra knowing her possibly nature though. It was about if she was unknowingly possessed why did Solas, an expert in the Fade and spirits, or Cole, and actual spirit, not say anything about it through the whole game? The closest was when Cole said she was "touched" by a spirit, which is the same terminology that Cassandra and codex the Rite of Tranquility uses, not possessed. If it did turn out she was possessed, I would imagine there would have been a much larger discourse on the matter after that personal quest between them.
I meant that the result might not be "possession" as we understand it. Cole, despite being a spirit, didn't know he was actually a spirit for a long time. In the same manner, the Seekers might not be able to grasp what they truly "are".
A bit far-fetched, yes, but with I'd believe it sooner than I'd buy into the insultingly bare-bones explanation we get, that lacks any elaboration while also existing in overt conflict with pre-existing information.
Still, the Templars can't be everywhere, especially with most of their forces stuck in Circle towers, and I'd imagine that most rulers wouldn't be too bothered by the idea of making a fraction of their military forces into drug addicts that can only gain relief by getting Lyrium from them. The Chantry didn't seem to care that much so why would they? It's a good
disgustingly manipulativeway to ensure loyalty after all.
Besides, forces like the chevailers receive Templar training to fight against magical foes anyway, so why not just give them Lyrium to ensure their effectiveness.
And I would think there would be lords who wouldn´t mind having their own set of troops with the abilities. Regardless of the costs.
I think BioWare needs to have a mage companion who is totally fine up until some random point 3/4 of the way through the campaign where they just lose it and have to be put down after they destroy a whole village. Similar to the villain mages we see, and a bit like Anders, but have the mage be a very likable and well meaning person who isn't a radical like Anders. Have the person be a LI, too.
(Even though the demonic, destructive abominations are not common, they are not as common as they could be and many mages have been protected by the Chantry and Circle over the years who would otherwise have been killed or fallen to demons... although, I guess they can't always help the children who become abominations and destroy villages, like Connor and Meredith's sister.)
That, or give into the idealism people want on these boards, where mages live in harmony (if not peace) with mundanes. Just toss out any remaining "dark" and just go high fantasy.
Y'know what would be awesome? If a mage PC would hear demons whispering at random points in the game and have a non-canon game over option of letting themselves get possessed. It would work with the lore we have been given over time.
More things will probably be put into perspective once a game goes to Tevinter. Maybe they have task forces specific to hunting criminal mages and taking down abominations.
Eh, I see this series going with nations having their own Circles and Templars and go about buying their own lyrium, like ComedicSociopathy was saying, so at least many different systems can be done and tried to see which works best, or at least best for that specific culture.
Uh... Yeah... That's already been done. Their name was Anders. Granted it was probably slightly more gradual than you sound like you're wanting, but that pretty much was a "sane mage who just completely loses his f*cking mind and needs to be put down or risk him doing something worse elsewhere" like you're asking. I don't want another Anders, personally speaking.
By the way, am I the only one that kinda likes that seekers are possessed by the same kind of spirit Wynne was? Spirit of faith, both times. Apparently spirits of faith are some of the nicest and stable spirits in the fade, seeing as they seem to not effect the person they're in very much at all. I wonder if Vessel of Spirit (Wynne's unique power in DAO) might have actually been her equivalent of her seeker "gift" that the spirit gave her? Also, it really did make her immune to other possession. If sent to fight the Desire Demon controlling Connor, she tells the thing right to its face that the demon can't have her because she's already taken... Exactly like seekers. And yet people still think that seekers aren't possessed being? The evidence is right on the wall in bright purple letters!
You are justifying the forced confinement of an entire group of people based on the actions of a handful of individuals. Yes, seven individual Mages unleashed the blight onto the world, or so the Chantry would have everyone believe. Inquisition introduced possible hints to an alternative origin of Darkspawn. You are forgetting that Tevinter and Elvhen Mages were also instrumental in the founding and creation of Grey Wardens.
It was they who deduced that the only way to finally kill an Archdemon is to possess the taint. It was they who developed the Joining which is in fact a Blood Magic Ritual. So while seven Mages would have brought doom upon the world countless others have fought and sacrificed their lives as Grey Wardens to save it and make it possible for others to do the same. I would say that the universal Mage Paragon/Renegade meter has leveled out, no?
As for Demons this is more justification, religious pov, and fear mongering on the Chantry's part. The Chantry maintains that without their oversight that Mages would soon fall to Blood Magic and Demons while in reality Abominations are rare and in a vast majority of cases in-game Mages were pushed down that road by the Chantry itself. The Chantry causes more Abominations than it prevents. As stated by myself and others, there are societies in Thedas in which Mages are free.
They even willingly seek out Spirits and practice Blood Magic openly. They have no Circles or Templars and yet there ARE NOT Abominations lurking behind every corner. Some of these practices and traditions have existed longer than the Chantry itself and the free Mages have clearly learned how to minimize the danger. When it comes to Spirits and Demons free Mage cultures have superior methods in dealing with them as events like the Broken Circle in Ferelden and Kirkwall don't happen and would likely do great damage to the smaller populations.
As stated by Solas, some Magic, like the magic Dalish Keppers is more practical than the Circle's because they are not ruled by the oversight of a religions institution that tells them what magic is 'good' or 'bad'. The Chantry's RELIGION says one thing but reality shows us another. Very similar to real life.
Not "or so they would have you believe". Corypheus is living proof of what happened. He walked into the city as Seth Amladaris and got turned into a monster, same as the Architect.
Even if Tevinter contributed to the creation of the Grey Wardens, they don't get a free pass for what happens behind closed doors.
They don't have abominations, yay! They also murder people to fuel their magic.
Proof? Hardly. We now know that Corypheus, by his own admission if you want to take his words as gospel, and the other Magisters entered the Fade, found the already corrupted Golden city and were expelled as Darkspawn. We do not know if they were in fact the first Darkspawn in Thedas. The murals depicted in the Temple of Mythal show Ancient Elves fighting what appear to be Darkspawn. The Primeval Thaig that we visit in DA2 also has Red Lyrium, the first discovered, which we learn is tainted.
Both the Ancient Elves and the Thaig predate Tevinter by thousands of years suggesting that Darkspawn or some form of the Taint existed in Thedas long before the Magisters entered the Fade. And not everyone in Tevinter is the same, just as not everyone in Ferelden is the same. Blaming every member of a group, be it Mages or Tevinters, for the actions of seven individuals and ignoring the contributions of other individuals in the same group to make things right is ridiculously unfair and actually laughable.
You might as well blame Alistair and the Warden for what Logain did. They're Ferelden too so they're just as bad right? Why stop there? Lets blame all men with black hair for what Logain did. Tevinters murder people to fuel their Magic? Yes. Orlesian Chevaliers murder Elves to complete their training. In the words of the literally immortal Leliana: "No one is innocent."
I've always theorized that the blight and ghouls have always been around, but darkspawn (beings of the blight, not just corrupted beings) came with the seven ancient magisters, and they were able to make it spread or something.
So, lets get back to world-building a new mage system?
i'll tell you how it works
with everything the Dragon Age series was built on being scrapped in favor of simplistic barrier/guard mechanics
mages are just Skyrim characters now
i'll tell you how it works
with everything the Dragon Age series was built on being scrapped in favor of simplistic barrier/guard mechanics
mages are just Skyrim characters now
You are justifying the forced confinement of an entire group of people based on the actions of a handful of individuals. Yes, seven individual Mages unleashed the blight onto the world, or so the Chantry would have everyone believe. Inquisition introduced possible hints to an alternative origin of Darkspawn. You are forgetting that Tevinter and Elvhen Mages were also instrumental in the founding and creation of Grey Wardens.
It was they who deduced that the only way to finally kill an Archdemon is to possess the taint. It was they who developed the Joining which is in fact a Blood Magic Ritual. So while seven Mages would have brought doom upon the world countless others have fought and sacrificed their lives as Grey Wardens to save it and make it possible for others to do the same. I would say that the universal Mage Paragon/Renegade meter has leveled out, no?
As stated by myself and others, there are societies in Thedas in which Mages are free.
They even willingly seek out Spirits and practice Blood Magic openly. They have no Circles or Templars and yet there ARE NOT Abominations lurking behind every corner. Some of these practices and traditions have existed longer than the Chantry itself and the free Mages have clearly learned how to minimize the danger. When it comes to Spirits and Demons free Mage cultures have superior methods in dealing with them as events like the Broken Circle in Ferelden and Kirkwall don't happen and would likely do great damage to the smaller populations.
As stated by Solas, some Magic, like the magic Dalish Keppers is more practical than the Circle's because they are not ruled by the oversight of a religions institution that tells them what magic is 'good' or 'bad'. The Chantry's RELIGION says one thing but reality shows us another. Very similar to real life.
Where?
Is Tevinter your best example an empire where slavery is ordinary?I genuinely believe that southern Thedas is the best when it comes to anti mages defence,Templars,Seeker are not a joke like their counterpart in Tevinter.
Anyway, after 5 blights,an hole on the sky,massive blood sacrifice from mages part as well as the creation of the darkspawn,and all the destruction leaded by mages ,it is good to have orders, that are willingly to strike them down if it is needed.
By the way mages of the cirlce are more preapared than Dalish because they have more resources,just look at how prepared is Finn,even in blood magic
Well, Tevinter is the only nation where mages are given absolute freedom, and yes, it's a shitty place. However, some countries have freer mages than others. Nevarra and Rivain are both much more lax than most others when it comes to mages for cultural reasons.
I agree that there needs to be SOME system in place to counter mage power. However, I beleive that the Circle was more strict than it needed to be.
Quite contrary my friend ,circles weren't strict enough ,simple fact that circles allowed blood mages to function and practice blood magic proves that.
Where?Is Tevinter your best example an empire where slavery is ordinary?I genuinely believe that southern Thedas is the best when it comes to anti mages defence,Templars,Seeker are not a joke like their counterpart in Tevinter.Anyway, after 5 blights,an hole on the sky,massive blood sacrifice from mages part as well as the creation of the darkspawn,and all the destruction leaded by mages ,it is good to have orders, that are willingly to strike them down if it is needed.By the way mages of the cirlce are more preapared than Dalish because they have more resources,just look at how prepared is Finn,even in blood magic
An excerpt from my earlier post:
"The Avvar: The Mages of the Avvar are called Shamans and like the Dalish Keepers are spiritual guides to their people. The traditions of the Shamans and Avvar predate the Circle of Magi and the Chantry. Due to the cultural importance of Mages, Templars are not welcome by the Avvar. The Avvar even train Mages by allowing them to be possessed by a Spirit. They have methods and contingencies in place should said Spirits are reluctant to leave.
Rivain: Rivain does indeed have a Circle Tower but unlike any other. It serves mostly as an appeasement to the Chantry as the people of Rivain are not Andrastian nor are they truly Qunari, though some are. The Dalish even have a settlement there. The Mages of Rivain have no restrictions on their freedom, they travel freely and remain with their families. As a matriarchal society and similar to the Avvar, Rivain was lead by Seers, female Mages that allowed themselves to become possessed to help lead their people.
When the Chantry discovered this the Templars invoked the Right of Annulment in 9:40 Dragon and slaughtered the Mages in the capital city of Dairsmuid despite the fact that the Mages were in fact co-existing peacefully. Context: The Templars didn't kill all of those scary Blood Mages in that Tower over there. They marched into a town and killed husbands, wives, sons, daughters and spiritual leaders. The political fallout and consequences for the Chantry and Templar's actions are thus far unknown but I cannot see the nation of Rivain just letting this one slide.
The Grey Wardens: The Mages of the Grey Wardens are treated just as any other Warden. They have no more personal restrictions nor are they barred from attaining any rank such as Warden Commander or First Warden. Warden Mages have no restrictions on their use of Magic and can use whatever means they wish to kill Darkspawn including Blood Magic and Demon Summoning. The Joining itself, the process that creates Grey Wardens, is a Blood Magic Ritual."
I also forgot to add the Chasind. They, like the Dalish and Rivaini, have free Mages as leaders and have existed since before the Chantry and Circles.
The Mages of the Circle are NOT more prepared than the Dalish or any other Mages. As Solas stated, Dalish Magic is more practical. The same can be said of Rivain and Avvar Magic as they have developed methods that prevent Abominations and can separate a Spirit from its host, willing or otherwise. Something that Mages of the Circle have incorrectly said is impossible.
Circle Mages are only taught Magics sanctioned the Chantry deem "safe" and "useful", restricting all else and in the process hobbling true education and Magical progress. Imagine how different the Broken Circle incident in the Ferelden Tower would have been had the Mages had access to real practical knowledge the Chantry deems "evil". The Chantry's restrictive approach to education is akin to abstinence only education: It doesn't work, it's dangerous and detrimental.
Well, Tevinter is the only nation where mages are given absolute freedom, and yes, it's a shitty place. However, some countries have freer mages than others. Nevarra and Rivain are both much more lax than most others when it comes to mages for cultural reasons.
I agree that there needs to be SOME system in place to counter mage power. However, I beleive that the Circle was more strict than it needed to be.
Tevinter is not the only nation where Mages are given absolute freedom. Mages in Rivain are free and act as spiritual leaders. Mages were also free in the Dales before their destruction. And above you will see various other cultures that have free Mages.
Yeah and all those above examples proved to be danger on national or even world scale.
Oh i don't have to imagine what would be broken circle if mages had access to that forbidden knowledge ,in fact it was in first place reason why circle was overrun by abomnations.
Quite contrary my friend ,circles weren't strict enough ,simple fact that circles allowed blood mages to function and practice blood magic proves that.
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