73 réponses à ce sujet

[Catastrophy]

Doesn't look like the game had any powers so no thanks.

[Broganisity]

 You did say something I had already thought about: ME3's combat works better in multiplayer. 

-snip-

It did come first, and I can understand how the gameplay of ME2 (and especially ME1) wouldn't flow as well. Going from ME:MP's Horde Mode to the Campaign's 'Shooting Gallery' is a little jarring what with the added slow-motion and all that, not to mention the lack of/minimal amount of flanking (unless you ran into the thick of it all) and companions who were, while not the best, at least were command-able with their abilities and reliable in their general inefficiency that's meant to make the player appear better.

 

Side Note: It was originally Mass Effect: Team Assault, a first person competitive shooter.

 

[Golden_Persona]

I have no problems with the smoothness of either ME2 or ME3 to be honest. A lot of the times ME2 felt like action-rock paper scizzors. You'd pop out of cover and take your shots, then your enemies would. Someone has a barrier (scissors) then you use a biotic power (rock). Same with tech powers and shields. Party selection was a lot more important. It felt slower, but perhaps more tactical in its approach. It seriously is lacking in the powers and RPG department. If people want to claim ME is a generic TPS game then I can at least understand why they'd come to such a conclusion with ME2.

 

ME3 though I simply can't fathom that GoW clone mentality. ME3 is a totally different beast. It dropped the rock-paper-scissors feel to the combat, enemies don't have blatant weaknesses anymore, cover is nowhere near as important to the game, and Shepard can finally run indefinitely. I rarely take cover, as in crouching behind objects, because Shepard is so mobile in the game. The game also makes it incredibly easy to use the level design to your advantage, and cover blends in faaaar better with the locations so they feel natural.

 

Not mention there are so many crazy powers that can make Shepard unkillable, which honestly needs the most balancing imo. Vanguard charge + Nova is basically invulnerability mode. The game can be won without ever firing your gun. Most of the "ME3 generic TPS not an RPG" complaints can be disproven through facts. Doesn't mean you can't dislike the gameplay, it just means that calling it a GoW clone is completely invalid. It's basically hyperbole and doesn't really do ME3 justice. Unless you play on soldier class. In that case I can understand, but I can't understand why one would play soldier class if they were looking for a TPS that wasn't shooter heavy.

 

I'm curious. Are there any other TPS games that have such a large focus on your class, power synergy, companions and shooting blended in together well? I remember trying a plethora of TPS games trying to find one that could match ME, but I honestly could never find one. Vanquish is a great shooter, but it doesn't have the other components ME has that makes me love it so much.

[SNascimento]

cover is nowhere near as important to the game, and Shepard can finally run indefinitely. I rarely take cover, as in crouching behind objects, because Shepard is so mobile in the game. 

 

I found it was much harder to stay outside cover in ME3 than in ME2, or at least I felt more vulnerable in the third instalment. Vanguard + Nova is extremely hard to die indeed, but it didn't feel very fun. 

I probably doing ME3 a injustice here though. I did enjoy its gameplay quite a lot, and in some aspects I can understand why people would say it's better than ME2. But overall, I feel the combat of the second game came together better.
 

 

I'm curious. Are there any other TPS games that have such a large focus on your class, power synergy, companions and shooting blended in together well? I remember trying a plethora of TPS games trying to find one that could match ME, but I honestly could never find one. Vanquish is a great shooter, but it doesn't have the other components ME has that makes me love it so much.

 

I don't think so. Squadmates and different power is what set ME2 and ME3 apart from other shooters. The closest thing I can think of is Bioshock Infinite, it a FPS and doesn't have squadmates, but it does have powers and power synergy and shooting. 

[Broganisity]

I'm curious. Are there any other TPS games that have such a large focus on your class, power synergy, companions and shooting blended in together well?

The Bureau: XCOM Declassified comes to mind.

I'm not saying its the greatest game but its sort of that way. You can order your squaddies to move to more precise locations, its a TPS, aliens. . .

[Mcfly616]

Could you elaborate?

 you quoted me and posted a vid of ME2 gameplay. Mass Effect (the series as a whole) has clunky shooter mechanics. Without the characters and story (basically the writing.....yeah, I said it) Mass Effect would be a mid-tier, mediocre, halfway decent shooter on par with Binary Domain (maybe not even...mechanically-wise, definitely not even)

[SNascimento]

 you quoted me and posted a vid of ME2 gameplay. Mass Effect (the series as a whole) has clunky shooter mechanics. Without the characters and story (basically the writing.....yeah, I said it) Mass Effect would be a mid-tier, mediocre, halfway decent shooter on par with Binary Domain (maybe not even...mechanically-wise, definitely not even)

I disagree.

[Andrew Lucas]

I'd love to see the impact of bullet shot being physically applied on the next ME, the character's armors suffering a "bump" and briefly affecting mobility. That would be neat.

[SNascimento]

I'd love to see the impact of bullet shot being physically applied on the next ME, the character's armors suffering a "bump" and briefly affecting mobility. That would be neat.

If I understand you correctly, both ME2, and ME3 (to a greater extend) had that. Enemies were physically affected by being hit and the effect depended on the weapon and place you shoot them.

[Mcfly616]

I disagree.

  I gathered that.

[Golden_Persona]

I found it was much harder to stay outside cover in ME3 than in ME2, or at least I felt more vulnerable in the third instalment. Vanguard + Nova is extremely hard to die indeed, but it didn't feel very fun. 

I probably doing ME3 a injustice here though. I did enjoy its gameplay quite a lot, and in some aspects I can understand why people would say it's better than ME2. But overall, I feel the combat of the second game came together better.

I guess it depends on your class then? I've played as every class other than Sentinal in ME3 and I never use cover and do just fine. Mind you, I usually choose either normal, or the difficulty that's just below insanity. I also make use of the command menu as well to survey my surroundings. Vanguard spec'd for charge + nova simply can't die. Nova doesn't use cooldown, just barrier strength. Vanguard charge can fully recharge barriers as well. All you have to do is charge, then use nova (I use the spec that lets me use two at half strength) until you run out of barrier, and by then you can vanguard charge again, refill barriers and repeat.

 

Engineer has a drone army that distracts and kills a lot of things, and I always have defense matrix to refill shields if neccesary, and sabotage can stop enemies form firing or hack synthetics. Infiltrator's cloak has ridiculously short recharge time, and I usually take the spec that lets me fire a power and not de-cloak. Adepts have singularity and stasis which are OP. I also always have Liara and a party member with overload, spec'd immediately for neural shock and +2 target effectiveness. I'd say the only times I use cover or when I'm fighting rachni. Those things can die in a fire.

 

Not to say I don't think ME2's gameplay isn't fun. I think ME2 is a masterpiece in nearly every sense of the word, and I'd choose to play ME2 over any other ME game any day of the week, but they actually feel like two different games to me. ME2 is far more tactical. Cover is basically required. As I've said the Combat, Tech, and Biotic powers feel like a rock-paper-scissors system, but that also means that planning your party is far more essential. Going into a collector mission without a biotic on higher difficulties is basically suicide. Shepard also moves stiffer but I think it helps feel tactical. Also, and this is a preference of mine, ME2 is a lot more colorful.  ME3 by contrast is more mobile, cover isn't required, and the powers in ME3 are so powerful that they all basically work any enemy. The RPS element is completely dropped thanks to overload taking out both barriers and shields. I also find the more realistic human designs to be off-putting. They also ruined my favorite hairstyle in ME2 >.>

[Golden_Persona]

 you quoted me and posted a vid of ME2 gameplay. Mass Effect (the series as a whole) has clunky shooter mechanics. Without the characters and story (basically the writing.....yeah, I said it) Mass Effect would be a mid-tier, mediocre, halfway decent shooter on par with Binary Domain (maybe not even...mechanically-wise, definitely not even)

What are we comparing it to? I've tried getting into Gears of War, I've played Binary Domain. I tend to play Fallout in 3rd person as well. I went on a TPS binge last generation trying to find something as fun as Mass Effect, and I never found it. Gears of War might have smoother shooting mechanics, but it lacks the party, class, and power system that makes ME stand above the rest. If you're comparing ME, a TPS, with other FPS games then I can't help it if Call of Duty has better shooting mechanics, because that's literally the only thing Call of Duty has going for it.

[dreamgazer]

I disagree.

If we're only looking at the gunplay in Mass Effect, then I agree with Mcfly.

If we're looking at the combo of gunplay and spellcasting, however, I'd agree with you.

[Golden_Persona]

The Bureau: XCOM Declassified comes to mind.

I'm not saying its the greatest game but its sort of that way. You can order your squaddies to move to more precise locations, its a TPS, aliens. . .

I've thought about XCOM, but as far as I can tell it still lacks the same kind of class and power system ME has.

 

The closest thing I can think of is Bioshock Infinite, it a FPS and doesn't have squadmates, but it does have powers and power synergy and shooting

Bioshock Infinite is actually my 4th favorite game of all time. That game gets a bad rep because it's not survival horror like the first game was. I absolutely love how vigors and guns blend together so well. Shock jockey spec'd properly plus handcanon equals every guard's heads exploding in a gory delight. Soooo goood, and I also absolutely love the story. I think its invalid though since its an FPS, not a TPS.

[Steelcan]

I preferred ME2's combat to ME3, in ME3 Shepard felt too fast and smooth

 

I mean he's not supposed to be a Spartan

[Golden_Persona]

If we're only looking at the gunplay in Mass Effect, then I agree with Mcfly.

If we're looking at the combo of gunplay and spellcasting, however, I'd agree with you.

The problem is, as proven by that one person's post, people are looking at ME's shooting mechanics which are absolutely nothing to write home about. But as you say, it's the combination of the gunplay and the powers that makes it a cut-above everything. I play as an Engineer and I'm basically a red mage with cryo-blast, overload and incinerate in my arsenal alongside my guns. Adepts are space wizards pure and simple.

 

The fact such an overwhelming majority of ME players played as a soldier class (statistically proven) makes me sad. It's like they didn't get the full experience.

[Rannik]

I've thought about XCOM, but as far as I can tell it still lacks the same kind of class and power system ME has.

 

The Bureau has a class system with exclusive abilities.

[SNascimento]

I mean he's not supposed to be a Spartan

Of course not, Shepard is a Roman. 

[Broganisity]

The Bureau has a class system with exclusive abilities.

Basically this.

The Bureau split off heavily from the game's classic turn based strategy roots, but it plays a lot like Mass Effect with its squad ordering feature. . .actually, I think it's order feature is better as you can control where they go more precisely.

[Andrew Lucas]

If I understand you correctly, both ME2, and ME3 (to a greater extend) had that. Enemies were physically affected by being hit and the effect depended on the weapon and place you shoot them.

No, no, I meant the main protagonist. Like - if he gets shot on the shoulder, there's a brief animation on that particular area, it quickly makes the character lose part of the accuracy and mobility is affected as well, or if you're running towards an enemy and you're without shields and get shot, the character stumbles around before resuming his previous pace. It would be awesome if I could feel the bullet's weight on my character's armor.

[Red Panda]

What both things have to do with the mecanics of ME3 gameplay ?

 

The RPG focus and infinite pause took away the fundamental third person shooter aspect by devaluing the shooting part with the ability to take your time and aim and potentially hit every shot. The concentration on powers was also to the detriment of the idea of a shooter. When people play shooters they don't do it to play a game where powers are primarily used over your weapon.

 

There's also one other outstanding issue: the quality action button for everything. The various issues with emphasis on a cover system with clunky mechnics and poorly designed enemies meant to negate said cover system leading to a multiplayer meta that focused on avoiding cover entirely as it is a deathtrap.

 

I don't think this is evidence of a fluid and enjoyable gameplay experience.

[Red Panda]

The Bureau has a class system with exclusive abilities.

4 classes with 6 smaller specialization focuses.

 

The Bureau also had permadeath for squadmembers.

[ImaginaryMatter]

BioWare has enough problems dealing with the buttons on the controllers they already have. Let's not complicate it even further.

[Vapaa]

I preferred ME2's combat to ME3, in ME3 Shepard felt too fast and smooth
 
I mean he's not supposed to be a Spartan

 
S/he an elite soldier cybernically enhanced, s/he's littelerally ME's idea of a Spartan.
 
InfiShep not being able to have a stable sniper aim at the beginning of ME was laughable.
 
 

The RPG focus and infinite pause took away the fundamental third person shooter aspect by devaluing the shooting part with the ability to take your time and aim and potentially hit every shot. The concentration on powers was also to the detriment of the idea of a shooter. When people play shooters they don't do it to play a game where powers are primarily used over your weapon.

 
That doesn't matter, the fact is, if you want to play as a twichy TPS, you have solid mechanics to do so: combat roll (including rolling out of cover), switch cover, reliable sprint, etc...
 

There's also one other outstanding issue: the quality action button for everything. The various issues with emphasis on a cover system with clunky mechnics and poorly designed enemies meant to negate said cover system leading to a multiplayer meta that focused on avoiding cover entirely as it is a deathtrap.

 
Taking cover organically by just hiding beind a wall is one of the oldest tricks in the book of FPS/TPS, I use it equally in Mass effect, Gears, Halo, Serious Sam, Rage, Timeshift...hell even in Vanquish I used it (incidentally, only the first ME makes it a pain by sticking you to the cover without approval, goddam backwards gameplay design). Good gameplay is based on mobility, what gives you this mobility doesn't matter at the end, the important aspect is that the game gives you enough gameplay elements to do your own thing (and the level design to exploit it, looking at you Rage).