148 réponses à ce sujet

[Majestic Jazz]

Yes, and having target audiences is okay as long as you are not denigrating another group to appeal to that target argument. If you are putting out offensive stereotypes, objectifying people, etc. in your entertainment medium you will rightly be called a bigot by many people. If enough people agree that your product is offensive, capitalism will correct that imbalance. However, you won't get to that point of correction if the bigots are allowed to control the conversation from their point of privilege and shut down the critics.

 

A good example of this scenario happening is the tv show 'The Dukes of Hazzard' being pulled off the air by TVLand due to the confederate flag controversy. Many people are mad about what they perceive as TVLand 'caving' to political correctness but it was probably just a financial decision. As in, enough people are offended by the confederate flag that businesses pulled advertising from the tv show so as not to offend their customers. In this case the typically privileged group lost their 'battle' due to vocal and financial opposition to an injustice.

 

You have a point about not  denigrating another group to appeal to a demographic. I agree with you 100% there. Using the Sex and the City argument again, it appealed to women without coming across as anti-male. Entourage appealed to males without coming across as anti-female. If we can have games that appeal to a certain demographic without demeaning the minority demographic, then that would be great. 

 

The problem ahead lies within the idea of creative art. What if a developer wants to excersise their artistic integrity and create a videogame that has a hypothetical view on society in which women are the dominate sex, women are in control of politics/business, and men are second fiddle to women. Personally even as a male I would LOVE to play a game like this and experience the atmosphere, especially if it was an open world RPG like Witcher or Fallout. I am sure that many feminist (perhaps not you) would jump for joy at the concept of this game. However, you may also see a pushback from males who says that this game purposely oppresses men (go figure right?) However, because of this, should the developer change their concept? After all, it is their art and who are we to judge what can and cannot be art? How far do we allow artistic integrity to go before having to be censored by social and political pressure? 

 

Also what about the hypocritical/double-standard views? Take Iron Bull as an example, he is a male Qunari with exaggerated muscular features. His default outfit has him topless, he is a sex crazed individual who will bed with women AND men, and as he travels the land, certain NPCs makes jokes about his "man breast". In a way, IB is a sexualized male.....yet nobody says anything. Now imagine if IB was a female Qunari, default outfit topless (with a bra of course), is very sexually active and talks about sleeping with men AND women, has exaggerated sexual female design such as curves in certain places, and has NPCs makes jokes about her "brest"? Imagine the fallout that Bioware would take in by feminist groups claiming that they created IB as a character aimed at the 13-year old virgin boy fantasy. I brought this up in the ME:A thread about not having sexualized characters and yet everyone ignored it. 

 

I guess what I am saying is that I like diversity in art. I do not want all movies, videogames, music, and novels to feel forced to appeal to everyone because then the art and quality is taken away. Imagine how effective Sex and the City would have been if it was forced to talk about male issues and give a male perspective? While games like Witcher 3, Uncharted 4, or GTA 5 may not be your fancy, that does not make them low quality products and that does not mean that there is another demographic that it was aimed towards. 

[Shechinah]

 DAO was a raw and mature game, closer to that of TW3 and was not light on issues like racism (elves) or sexism (1. Sten's explaining of the Qun and how it doesnt allow for female warriors). By the time we get to DAI, much of that was retconned and issues like racism were not really explored much and Thedas turnes into a "care bear" land that is all sterile and bright.

This seems to be a point that shall forever make me wish I was able to copy and paste the previous posts I've made on the forum.

 

The Qun has not been retconned in regards to this and their philsophy has not become less rigid. The Qun is based on the philosophy of Ashkaari Koslun and is adhered to rigidly which would be why they have developed their view of gender as being based on the skill a person would have; 

 

If a female person demonstrating that their best of skills is in combat then that would create a contradiction because it is stated by the Qun philosophy that this should not be possible; a woman cannot be a warrior so why should they have a warrior's skill. Since the Qun is infallible then such a contradiction should be impossible.

 

To solve this contradiction without the Qun becoming fallible would be to decide that this means the person is male and the logic is thusly: The Qun states that only males may be combative capable and so it is clear that this combative capable person is male and was mistakenly believed to be female. Ignoring the contradiction by assigning the person a female role and pretending their previous skill was not previously displayed would be denying the obvious which the Qunari are not in favor of. Add in cases of hermaprodism which would create further confusion and contradiction, the best way of keeping the Qun infallible is to create a perception of gender that is defined by which roles an individual is assigned.

 

This is what prompt Sten's disagreement with a female Warden: They are a contradiction according to the Qun. They claim to be a warrior and a woman despite the two being contradiction to each other. Sten's issue is wholly with this claim. Note this excerpt from the dialogue; 

 

Warden: "I'm a woman and I fight."

Sten: "One of those things can't be true."

 

Never does nor can the Warden deny their gender and so never is Sten provided with the expected solution of the contradiction. Sten has seen the Warden show skill in combat and seen them participate in combat and so Qunari logic dictates that they must be male since they are competent but because the Warden insists otherwise in regards to being male, then the logic is defied.

 

Additionally and importantly, Sten himself disapproves of attempting to summarise people or aspects of them and their culture; "People are not simple. They cannot be summarized for easy reference in the manner of: 'elves are a lithe, pointy-eared people who excel at poverty.'"     

 

The Qun did not become fluffy and acceptant of transexuality. As I've mentioned above, Qun has a different perception of gender; it defines gender according to the roles an individual has. Krem has a skill when it comes to combat and he claims to be male so of course, there'd be no contradiction. If Krem had no skill when it came to combat and still claimed to be male, at best he'd be re-educated and at worst, he'd be made a mindless slave.    

[Zjarcal]

One of witcher 3 ending is so depressing and made fantastic.

Which one?

[Heimdall]

Fair enough, still not expecting it to be the next DLC. Deep Roads before that.

Agreed

That's what I've been trying to tell people, even if it is real, it says nothing about being the next DLC

[Majestic Jazz]

Agreed

That's what I've been trying to tell people, even if it is real, it says nothing about being the next DLC

 

Thing is, has Bioware even confirmed this Deep Roads DLC? What has lead people to believe that a Deep Roads DLC is in the works?

[maia0407]

The problem ahead lies within the idea of creative art. What if a developer wants to excersise their artistic integrity and create a videogame that has a hypothetical view on society in which women are the dominate sex, women are in control of politics/business, and men are second fiddle to women. Personally even as a male I would LOVE to play a game like this and experience the atmosphere, especially if it was an open world RPG like Witcher or Fallout. I am sure that many feminist (perhaps not you) would jump for joy at the concept of this game. However, you may also see a pushback from males who says that this game purposely oppresses men (go figure right?) However, because of this, should the developer change their concept? After all, it is their art and who are we to judge what can and cannot be art? How far do we allow artistic integrity to go before having to be censored by social and political pressure? 

 

I can't say whether I would support the hypothetical project or not; my support would depend on the purpose of the project. If it was trying to subvert traditional stereotypes that surround gender, I would probably support it. On the other hand, if it's purpose was purely to subjugate men for fun, then I don't see the appeal. I'm not telling people that they can't make their art; by the same token, people can't tell me whether or not I can be offended. In the commercial sense, offending a large group of people isn't always the best idea. You can make bigoted art all day long but no one has to buy it. If people do buy it, I'll exercise my right to criticize those people and hopefully affect change so that different art will be made.

Also what about the hypocritical views? Take Iron Bull as an example, he is a male Qunari with exaggerated muscular features. His default outfit has him topless, he is a sex crazed individual who will bed with women AND men, and as he travels the land, certain NPCs makes jokes about his "man breast". In a way, IB is a sexualized male.....yet nobody says anything. Now imagine if IB was a female Qunari, default outfit topless (with a bra of course), is very sexually active and talks about sleeping with men AND women, has exaggerated sexual female design such as curves in certain places, and has NPCs makes jokes about her "brest"? Imagine the fallout that Bioware would take in by feminist groups claiming that they created IB as a character aimed at the 13-year old virgin boy fantasy. I brought this up in the ME:A thread about not having sexualized characters and yet everyone ignored it. 

 

I guess what I am saying is that I like diversity in art. I do not want all movies, videogames, music, and novels to feel forced to appeal to everyone because then the art and quality is taken away. Imagine how effective Sex and the City would have been if it was forced to talk about male issues and give a male perspective? While games like Witcher 3, Uncharted 4, or GTA 5 may not be your fancy, that does not make them low quality products and that does not mean that there is another demographic that it was aimed towards.

I don't see the lack of feminist criticism surrounding Iron Bull as hypocritical for one major reason that most people hate to hear: sexism does not affect men in the same way it affects women. Most objectification of men in media occurs in a male power fantasy sense, not sexually objectifying them. As in, male looks at character and thinks, "Wow, look at all those muscles. He's strong and powerful. I wanna' be him." That doesn't typically happen to women. Usually guys look at the women in media and say, "I'd hit that." and dismiss her. It's demeaning. Secondly, a man sleeping around doesn't have the same discrimination as a woman sleeping around. A man is a 'stud' if he sleeps around; a woman is a '****'. What I'm getting at is that despite superficial similarities (lack of clothing) Iron Bull's 'objectification' is not the same as how most women are objectified. There's not the same social consequences for men as there are for wmen.

 

Finally, the Witcher, Uncharted, GTA do not represent diversity; they are part of the same ole, same ole in gaming catering to the same group. And again, catering to that group involves denigrating a group, women. At any rate, off to bed.

[Heimdall]

Thing is, has Bioware even confirmed this Deep Roads DLC? What has lead people to believe that a Deep Roads DLC is in the works?

I think it was an interview, a dev was asked directly if we'd see more Deep Roads content in the future and he responded with "Funny you should ask..." And said nothing more.

Thus many have guessed we'll be getting a Deep Roads DLC.

[Majestic Jazz]

I think it was an interview, a dev was asked directly if we'd see more Deep Roads content in the future and he responded with "Funny you should ask..." And said nothing more.

Thus many have guessed we'll be getting a Deep Roads DLC.

 

So it is speculation based on a vague response? What I get from that is that they plan on possibly exploring the Deep Roads in future DLC, but that doesn't mean the Deep Roads would have it's own specific DLC. Perhaps the DLC that this survey talks about may feature the Deep Roads in some capacity which would satisfy both camps in that there will be deep roads dlc content and that this will indeed be the last story dlc content for DAI.

[midnight tea]

So it is speculation based on a vague response? What I get from that is that they plan on possibly exploring the Deep Roads in future DLC, but that doesn't mean the Deep Roads would have it's own specific DLC. Perhaps the DLC that this survey talks about may feature the Deep Roads in some capacity which would satisfy both camps in that there will be deep roads dlc content and that this will indeed be the last story dlc content for DAI.

 

You can find Arryn Flynn's hint in Kotaku Asks -> http://kotaku.com/ko...uisi-1694123219

 

In any case - the survey doesn't mention anything Deep Roads-related. It mentions that we will travel to many places in Thedas, it mentions the Fade and Qunari army - but no Deep Roads.

[Heimdall]

So it is speculation based on a vague response? What I get from that is that they plan on possibly exploring the Deep Roads in future DLC, but that doesn't mean the Deep Roads would have it's own specific DLC. Perhaps the DLC that this survey talks about may feature the Deep Roads in some capacity which would satisfy both camps in that there will be deep roads dlc content and that this will indeed be the last story dlc content for DAI.

All those things could be true.

Though that's starting to sound like a lot of content for a DLC

[midnight tea]

All those things could be true.

Though that's starting to sound like a lot of content for a DLC

 

Sounds either like a massive expansion or a few DLCs.

[Heimdall]

Finally, the Witcher, Uncharted, GTA do not represent diversity; they are part of the same ole, same ole in gaming catering to the same group. And again, catering to that group involves denigrating a group, women.

Not inherently.

[Majestic Jazz]

I can't say whether I would support the hypothetical project or not; my support would depend on the purpose of the project. If it was trying to subvert traditional stereotypes that surround gender, I would probably support it. On the other hand, if it's purpose was purely to subjugate men for fun, then I don't see the appeal. I'm not telling people that they can't make their art; by the same token, people can't tell me whether or not I can be offended. In the commercial sense, offending a large group of people isn't always the best idea. You can make bigoted art all day long but no one has to buy it. If people do buy it, I'll exercise my right to criticize those people and hopefully affect change so that different art will be made.

 

 

I don't see the lack of feminist criticism surrounding Iron Bull as hypocritical for one major reason that most people hate to hear: sexism does not affect men in the same way it affects women. Most objectification of men in media occurs in a male power fantasy sense, not sexually objectifying them. As in, male looks at character and thinks, "Wow, look at all those muscles. He's strong and powerful. I wanna' be him." That doesn't typically happen to women. Usually guys look at the women in media and say, "I'd hit that." and dismiss her. It's demeaning. Secondly, a man sleeping around doesn't have the same discrimination as a woman sleeping around. A man is a 'stud' if he sleeps around; a woman is a '****'. What I'm getting at is that despite superficial similarities (lack of clothing) Iron Bull's 'objectification' is not the same as how most women are objectified. There's not the same social consequences for men as there are for wmen.

 

Finally, the Witcher, Uncharted, GTA do not represent diversity; they are part of the same ole, same ole in gaming catering to the same group. And again, catering to that group involves denigrating a group, women. At any rate, off to bed.

 

All of that is perspective. Are you saying that female gamers do not look at characters like IB and say "I'd hit that" or "Oh boy! He can get it!!!" as well? Again, this is a two-way highway. In fact, I think that a women being sexually liberated IS a major part of feminism is it not? Wasn't one of the initial aspects of feminism (Dating back to the 1960s) was that women should be able to casually sleep with men and not be objectified because men do the same and yet it is viewed as a good thing. This is how certain feminist icons such as Madonna became popular. She took female sexuality out of the hands of men and gave it back to women in a sense. She said that I am sexy not because I want to appeal to a male's needs, but I am sexy because I am confident and secure. After all, isn't one of the ideas of feminism to take back their sexuality and not make it that women who sleep around are....sl**s while men who sleep around are real men? Again, research the Samantha Jones character from Sex and the City. If society viewing women having casual sex is bad, I thought it was feminism that was supposed to fight against that.....not run away from it?

 

This is what I always found confusing about feminism, in that there are so many different "types" of feminism and often times, they conflict with one another. If you have any free time, please read this article and you'll get what I am talking about: 

 

Why Feminist Frequency Almost made me quit writing about videogames Part 1

 

Why Feminist Frequency Almost made me quit writing about videogames Part 2

 

Why Feminist Frequency Almost made me quit writing about videogames Part 3

 

Why Feminist Frequency Almost made me quit writing about videogames Part 4

 

Why Feminist Frequency Almost made me quit writing about videogames Part 5

 

Reading these will really open your eyes to another perspective of videogame feminism that really isn't given much credit. Please read these when you get spare time. If the concept of feminism in videogames is truely something you aspire for, then you should really read this as it would possibly give you another perspective of feminism in videogames. These were written by a female videogame journalist who describes herself as a feminist but doesn't get the respect because her ideas and concepts do not match with that of Anita Sarkeesian which many feminist gamers want to hail as the sole leader of the videogame feminist movement. Thus feminist of her type are often ignored or even discredited. Not that these articles will change your mind on anything, but it will broaden your knowledge base.

[dreamgazer]

Which one?

 

Spoiler

The ending you get if Geralt's not a good daddy to Ciri. She dies / doesn't return at the end, Geralt broods and goes after her Witcher necklace and the remaining Crone.

 

So, yeah, be careful when you decide whether to have that snowball fight or not.

[Zjarcal]

Spoiler

The ending you get if Geralt's not a good daddy to Ciri. She dies / doesn't return at the end, Geralt broods and goes after her Witcher necklace and the remaining Crone.

 

So, yeah, be careful when you decide whether to have that snowball fight or not.

 

Well I already saw that ending, just didn't really think it was "depressing" necessarily speaking, more like just bittersweet.

 

Spoiler

I kinda hate how arbitrary the parameters for those endings are though, like srsly, missing a snowball fight leads to this? :/

 

Not that I missed the snowball fight, it was cute as hell.

 

Though I suppose combining that ending with Radovid's winning slide definitely goes into depressive territory... >.>

 

[Heimdall]

This is what I always found confusing about feminism, in that there are so many different "types" of feminism and often times, they conflict with one another. If you have any free time, please read this article and you'll get what I am talking about: 
 
Why Feminist Frequency Almost made me quit writing about videogames Part 1
 
Why Feminist Frequency Almost made me quit writing about videogames Part 2
 
Why Feminist Frequency Almost made me quit writing about videogames Part 3
 
Why Feminist Frequency Almost made me quit writing about videogames Part 4
 
Why Feminist Frequency Almost made me quit writing about videogames Part 5
 
Reading these will really open your eyes to another perspective of videogame feminism that really isn't given much credit. Please read these when you get spare time. If the concept of feminism in videogames is truely something you aspire for, then you should really read this as it would possibly give you another perspective of feminism in videogames. These were written by a female videogame journalist who describes herself as a feminist but doesn't get the respect because her ideas and concepts do not match with that of Anita Sarkeesian which many feminist gamers want to hail as the sole leader of the videogame feminist movement. Thus feminist of her type are often ignored or even discredited. Not that these articles will change your mind on anything, but it will broaden your knowledge base.

I know it wasn't directed at me, but I just finished reading those articles and I have to say it was an eye opening read, made me rethink some of the assumptions I've held about feminism in gaming and portrayals of women in video games.

Thank you.

[9TailsFox]

Well I already saw that ending, just didn't really think it was "depressing" necessarily speaking, more like just bittersweet.

 

Spoiler

I kinda hate how arbitrary the parameters for those endings are though, like srsly, missing a snowball fight leads to this? :/

 

Not that I missed the snowball fight, it was cute as hell.

 

Though I suppose combining that ending with Radovid's winning slide definitely goes into depressive territory... >.>

 

Spoiler

I see zero sweat everyone Geralt loved dies and he just come her to die Then he teals he have no emotion you can see how broken and destroyed he is.

 

And It's not just snowball fight. You get point for making Ciri happy and wanting to be with the ones she love. If you want Ciri to defeat white frost and live you need her to encourage to be strong, give her confidence like letting her talk alone not babysit her.

 

Making her happy and confident in herself, she strong enough to live, making her unhappy and putting her down like she just a child who need protection makes her weak.

[9TailsFox]

All of that is perspective. Are you saying that female gamers do not look at characters like IB and say "I'd hit that" or "Oh boy! He can get it!!!" as well? Again, this is a two-way highway. In fact, I think that a women being sexually liberated IS a major part of feminism is it not? Wasn't one of the initial aspects of feminism (Dating back to the 1960s) was that women should be able to casually sleep with men and not be objectified because men do the same and yet it is viewed as a good thing. This is how certain feminist icons such as Madonna became popular. She took female sexuality out of the hands of men and gave it back to women in a sense. She said that I am sexy not because I want to appeal to a male's needs, but I am sexy because I am confident and secure. After all, isn't one of the ideas of feminism to take back their sexuality and not make it that women who sleep around are....sl**s while men who sleep around are real men? Again, research the Samantha Jones character from Sex and the City. If society viewing women having casual sex is bad, I thought it was feminism that was supposed to fight against that.....not run away from it?

 

This is what I always found confusing about feminism, in that there are so many different "types" of feminism and often times, they conflict with one another. If you have any free time, please read this article and you'll get what I am talking about: 

 

Why Feminist Frequency Almost made me quit writing about videogames Part 1

 

Why Feminist Frequency Almost made me quit writing about videogames Part 2

 

Why Feminist Frequency Almost made me quit writing about videogames Part 3

 

Why Feminist Frequency Almost made me quit writing about videogames Part 4

 

Why Feminist Frequency Almost made me quit writing about videogames Part 5

 

Reading these will really open your eyes to another perspective of videogame feminism that really isn't given much credit. Please read these when you get spare time. If the concept of feminism in videogames is truely something you aspire for, then you should really read this as it would possibly give you another perspective of feminism in videogames. These were written by a female videogame journalist who describes herself as a feminist but doesn't get the respect because her ideas and concepts do not match with that of Anita Sarkeesian which many feminist gamers want to hail as the sole leader of the videogame feminist movement. Thus feminist of her type are often ignored or even discredited. Not that these articles will change your mind on anything, but it will broaden your knowledge base.

Anita Sarkeesian is just con artist she don't even like game she told it in one of the first videos. It's lake listing what milk to make for all people who love milk, by lactose intolerant person.

[Zjarcal]

Spoiler

I see zero sweat everyone Geralt loved dies and he just come her to die Then he teals he have no emotion you can see how broken and destroyed he is.

 

And It's not just snowball fight. You get point for making Ciri happy and wanting to be with the ones she love. If you want Ciri to defeat white frost and live you need her to encourage to be strong, give her confidence like letting her talk alone not babysit her.

 

Making her happy and confident in herself, she strong enough to live, making her unhappy and putting her down like she just a child who need protection makes her weak.

 

Spoiler

I know it's 5 or 6 choices, not just the snowball fight, but considering how all the stuff that's used to determine whether she's confident enough to confront the White Frost is stuff that happens in the span of a few days, as opposed to every other experience she's had her whole life, it just feels very ham fisted.

 

Of course that's assuming she "dies" and not just decides to not return to Geralt, which actually makes much more sense. She is disappointed in Geralt's recent actions and decides it's best to keep going alone, that feels a much more natural outcome of those choices.

 

Anywhooo... dis is off topic so I'll just leave it there. =P

[AlanC9]

Like I said before, CDPR proved that you can make a great game without cateering to the SJW crowd which Bioware felt that they had to do with DAI. I mean the professional and user review scores for TW3 are better than DAI across the board, that should tell you something.

Does anyone else just immediately tune out an argument when the guy starts talking about SJWs? I know we should take arguments seriously regardless of the politics of the poster, but I'm having a lot of trouble doing that lately.

[midnight tea]

 

Like I said before, CDPR proved that you can make a great game without cateering to the SJW crowd which Bioware felt that they had to do with DAI. I mean the professional and user review scores for TW3 are better than DAI across the board, that should tell you something.

 

 

*sigh* It's not like those scores differ drastically. We're not talking 5/10 vs 10/10, but more like 8/10 vs 9/10. Not that much difference there.

[AlanC9]

Hey, that's weird. How come you've got Majestic Jazz' quote there attributed to me?

[midnight tea]

Hey, that's weird. How come you've got Majestic Jazz' quote there attributed to me?

 

LOL, sorry - I thought I erased that quote box and put the quote in appropriate one.

 

edit: fixed

[9TailsFox]

 

 

*sigh* It's not like those scores differ drastically. We're not talking 5/10 vs 10/10, but more like 8/10 vs 9/10. Not that much difference there.

 

You mean like DA2 getting 8/10 every review praising how good game is. Yes scores tell you so much. Or Bayonetta geting 7.5/10 and 99% of  review focusing on ah main character design. I think best use metacritic look at metascore and user score

Witcher 81 and 8.8

Witcher 2 88 and 8.5

Witcher 3 94 and 9.2

Seams reasonable an logical.

 

Now look at DA

DA:O 91 and 8.6

Now fun begins.

DA2 82 and 4.4

DA:I 85 and 5.8

You honestly can tell you not surprised why such big difference?

[midnight tea]

Considering how many people whine and immediately give 0 simply because DAI is not the carbon copy of DAO or give lowest scores over for something a silly as game not saving while you're in combat mode (standard for basically every game!) I'd say that the only thing that is surprising is that you actually think metacritic user scores are any more reliable than legit reviews.