89 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't care much for a morality system, especially anything close to a 'good' and 'evil' system, which the ME trilogy dabbled with when Paragon and Renegade were tone-based 'nice' and 'assholish' divisions.

 

On the other side, I greatly enjoy ideological 'morality' system that group decisions by common themes, positions, and unifying attitudes. When Paragon and Renegade were political principles- multilateralism versus self-sufficiency, deference to the Council vs. Alliance xenonationalism, legalism versus pragmatism- the system could be good.

 

 

I think Paragon and Renegade are important themes of the Mass Effect setting, and can be again. ME1 established Shepherd as the representative and face of a Humanity still new to the galaxy, with the impetus that Sheperd's positions would reflect on how Humanity was seen. Paragons were the paragons of the Council system and status-quo: Renegades were disruptive and overturned old and entrenched hierarchies.

 

I believe those sort of ideas can, and should, apply in the context of us being new to Andromeda. Context may change- and the system should definitely be updated and reformed- but the dual thematic approach to Mass Effect is part of the charm of the series.

 

(Now do it better, damn it.)

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

I don't care much for a morality system, especially anything close to a 'good' and 'evil' system, which the ME trilogy dabbled with when Paragon and Renegade were tone-based 'nice' and 'assholish' divisions.

 

On the other side, I greatly enjoy ideological 'morality' system that group decisions by common themes, positions, and unifying attitudes. When Paragon and Renegade were political principles- multilateralism versus self-sufficiency, deference to the Council vs. Alliance xenonationalism, legalism versus pragmatism- the system could be good.

 

 

I think Paragon and Renegade are important themes of the Mass Effect setting, and can be again. ME1 established Shepherd as the representative and face of a Humanity still new to the galaxy, with the impetus that Sheperd's positions would reflect on how Humanity was seen. Paragons were the paragons of the Council system and status-quo: Renegades were disruptive and overturned old and entrenched hierarchies.

 

I believe those sort of ideas can, and should, apply in the context of us being new to Andromeda. Context may change- and the system should definitely be updated and reformed- but the dual thematic approach to Mass Effect is part of the charm of the series.

 

(Now do it better, damn it.)

 

Given that we're entering a whole new galaxy and that the milky way species would most likely therefor be the new kids on the block, I suppose we can have the new protagonist once again be seen as the representative of humanity or perhaps all the milky way species.

[Absafraginlootly]

What about DA2 system which let you make protag's personality? c:

I felt that the da2 system hindered my making my characters personality by punishing me for not picking one colour all/almost all the time. I like DAI dialogue system the best - the icons don't represent a personality or alignment, they don't assign me points, they just give me information about what/how my character is going to say something.

I prefer to make decisions based on what I think my character would do and not worry about being locked out of dialogue options later on.

This.

[AlexiaRevan]

before worrying about interrupt Paragon/Renegade , peoples should worry about dialogue wheel . Cose even if they take the blue/red down..it doesn't guarantee that the dialogue will get any better . 

 

I don't care..but I do hope they work on the dialogue more . Less obvious reply or some that don't make any sense and 'what's going on' when it right before you what's going on...

[Nab20]

In ME3 I don't even read the dialogue choices since I know that the paragon choice is always in the same place on the dialogue wheel. In the Witcher 3 for exemple, I've struggled so many times to figure out what is the best decision.

 

I agree with OP, less black and white and more grey. 

[Hiemoth]

Which doesn't have the paragon-renegade thing and the reputation is bound per companion, so it's not entirely how ME did it (and possibly the reason why people want to ditch the paragon/renegade version)

 

But yeah basically DA2s system, but then for important characters/groups of people/factions(a bit like WoW in the case of factions) beyond just companions and WITHOUT it being visible.

 

I mean DA2 is my favorite companion system so far in Bioware games, so I can see why one would prefer it and I asked because DAO has for some reason been popping up in the thread.

 

Then to the actual response, as I would prefer did not do what you wish for. Not for being contrarian or that I don't want complex systems, but rather because with current resource limitations, for me going for such an ambitious would probably produce something extremely diluted and bland. Bioware's approach to major BPC and faction loyalties has never been a compounding factor, but rather one or two important decisions that are referred to in the story. The system you are pushing for seems to be similar to FONV, which used a lot of decision to determine faction ranking, but while doing that couldn't actually refer to any of the decisions. It isn't a right or a wrong approach, but rather just what such a broad approach requires. And since I would like to see the ME game continue acknowledge those big moments or decisions, I hope they continue to take approach instead of going to faction/character approvals. Especially since a good implementation would require a really large number of such small moments, which would again become a resource nightmare unless it was really made in to an open world wandering game.

 

As for the value not showing, again I hope they don't take that route as I really, really hated in DAI as for me personally it had a completely opposite effect. It made it feel more like a game to me, as in the real life there are number of social ques we can rely on to give some idea where we are with a person. A game naturally cannot implement an endless amount of small interactions, so the removal of the variable just left me really vague where I was with the characters. So the kind of attempt to not make it seem like a game really made it seem like a game for me. Also, to be honest, I've never really understood the issue in showing values as people can just ignore them? How is it different in seeing that Isabela rivalry value is in the red?

[Hinjo]

I hope there will be no morality system in Andromeda. But if it's going to return, I hope paragon will be more like Anderson and renegade will have something from the Illusive Man and Saren (I can't play as renegade in ME1-3 because I feel like an complete idiot. I want to manipulate people, not to shoot every single NPC just because I'M AAAAAANGGGGGRYYYYYY).

[Dean_the_Young]

I felt that the da2 system hindered my making my characters personality by punishing me for not picking one colour all/almost all the time. I like DAI dialogue system the best - the icons don't represent a personality or alignment, they don't assign me points, they just give me information about what/how my character is going to say something.

This.

 

DA2?

 

ME2 had that limitation, in a very real sense, since persuasion checks were always 'best' and were based off a percentage system. But DA2 only had 'dominant tone'- which had very, very few examples of offering 'exclusive' persuades. and allowed you to change each act. The biggest one being the 'Angry' option to side with Petrice.

 

Most of DA2's persuasion/special options were tied to which companions you had with you. Like having Varric bullshit a group of slavers holding a hostage.

 

 

DA2 had one of the least restrictive but still reactive Bioware morality systems to date by actually rewarding you just as much for being antagonistic as aggreable with your companion cast. Unlike in the ME series, where companions did not give a **** about anything except maybe one or two personal choices, and unlike in DA1 where approval was good with powerups and disapproval was bad, DA2 made approval and disapproval routes equal in content, mechanical rewards, and even romance. The biggest limitation about it was that it was still an all-or-nothing reward, so getting stuck in the middle of neither liked or disliked was a very real possibility.

[Dean_the_Young]

I hope there will be no morality system in Andromeda. But if it's going to return, I hope paragon will be more like Anderson and renegade will have something from the Illusive Man and Saren (I can't play as renegade in ME1-3 because I feel like an complete idiot. I want to manipulate people, not to shoot every single NPC just because I'M AAAAAANGGGGGRYYYYYY).

 

I'd like Paragon and Renegade to decide what they're trying to be, and then stick with it.

 

ME2's tone-based morality was annoying on multiple levels, because views and alignment would flip-flop in the same exact same missions or conversations (Legion's loyalty mission where the Big Decision counters the buildup, conversations with TIM), and yet the P/R point percentage system rewarded P/R consistency over keeping your rhetoric consistent.

 

But it also hurt because 'nice' and 'angry' really, really didn't work out well with simultaneous themes like 'follow the rules' or 'ends justify the means.' In almost all cases dealing with strangers in the ME series, Paragon Shepherd is a 'by the book', procedural, and legalistic person: defer to legitimate authority even if you disagree, follow procedural justice, don't break the rules, tell the truth, etc. You even chastise more than one rule-breaker and generally wield the 'I am the side of Justice!' banner of incorruptibility...

 

...which goes out the window the moment any friend/companion is involved or it isn't 'nice.' Tali's trial is the best example, in which the Paragon 'nice' option is perjury, the coverup of war crimes, and enabling the resumption of said war crimes by members of the Admiralty board. While the only option to, you know, tell the truth of a real crime to court is the (non-persuade) Renegade option. Not because it fits any of the Renegade themes, but because it was 'mean.'

 

The logical convolutions to keep Paragon and Renegade consistent were disgusting at times- all the more so because ME1 and ME2 had an extremely heavy imbalance of tone and content in favor of Paragon choices being just as good or better in terms of consequence, tones, and even player content and rewards.

 

Renegade bounced between 'racist jerk' and 'extreme pragmatist' in a series in which pragmatism was never the most pragmatic option until ME3, and in which most of the 'racist jerk' stuff wasn't even pragmatic. It failed it's own ideological claims test. Paragon bounced between 'ideal upholder of the law' and 'best buddy ever, nepotism rules', and deep-dived into hypocrisy and double-standards that were never called out or addressed.

[shodiswe]

Having a reputation makes sense though.

[Dubozz]

Please  keep the Paragon/Renegade or karma system

[Dean_the_Young]

Having a reputation makes sense though.

 

Having a reputation makes sense... if you're actually consistent in something.

 

Paragon and Renegade were simultaneously to broad and too vague. In some respects, the dialogue wheel itself worked against them: by using the same three positions for all dialogue, the very presentation mechanic turned into a limiting factor. It was practically impossible to have a Renegade-themed romance when it was never clear when a lower dialogue box was 'Renegade' versus 'end the romance now.' Fortunately, ever since DA2 Bioware has been improving on its signalling of dialogue choices.

[Dr. Rush]

Morality and choices presented to the player in ME games are among the worst in all roleplaying games. They were so shallow and predictable. Such mindless polar opposites of comic book hero or comic book villain. 

 

I repeatedly point to the Imperial Agent story in SWTOR as an example of how Bioware's modern-cinematic roleplaying SHOULD be done. Stop forcing us to be the hero of your story and instead make a game to be roleplayed in. The agent is able to choose his loyalty and this is a difficult choice throughout the entire story, because there is no RIGHT answer and there is no WRONG answer. Its not shallow polar morality, its nuanced and subtle and requires the player to think more about their choices than "blue for good and red for bad"

 

Seriously Bioware, your morality and choices have been severely lacking in ME2 and 3. I would really encourage you to go back to the drawing board and figure out how to use morality and choices to facilitate roleplaying from your audience, force your audience to think, to define the characters they are playing beyond "is my character a comic book villain or a comic book hero?"
 

The best choice in the entire ME trilogy in terms of roleplaying goes to the choice to kill or rewrite the Geth. Because ethically, there is no right or wrong answer. You have to define your character's own values, there is no obvious answer. Every question in ME4 should be like this, not just one thought-provoking choice in a series of 3 full games.

[The Elder King]

Reminds of how in Thane's recruitment mission Bioware expects me to give a damn about killing an extra merc by throwing him off the building after I intruded on private property and slaughtered most of his compatriots and gives me a dumb "alternative" that involves letting him loose in the middle of a battle where I'm about go after the rest of them. What a "moral dilemma".

Yeah, the alternative was stupid in general, Even for a pure Paragon. Other then the fact that You were killing every merc, why would You let a person Who was working for a person like Nassana, and that was Most likely involved in killing the workers in the tower, go?

[KaiserShep]

Reminds of how in Thane's recruitment mission Bioware expects me to give a damn about killing an extra merc by throwing him off the building after I intruded on private property and slaughtered most of his compatriots and gives me a dumb "alternative" that involves letting him loose in the middle of a battle where I'm about go after the rest of them. What a "moral dilemma".

There's also the consideration (if you're the sort to care), that this guy probably helped murder a bunch of innocent workers in the building, per Nassana Dantius' orders, so it's not like he doesn't deserve it anyway. 

[Seboist]

There should've been a neutral-ish detain or incapacitate option for moments like that.

[DaemionMoadrin]

I felt that the da2 system hindered my making my characters personality by punishing me for not picking one colour all/almost all the time. I like DAI dialogue system the best - the icons don't represent a personality or alignment, they don't assign me points, they just give me information about what/how my character is going to say something.

This.

 

Good point.

 

The problem with DA:I was that it gave you three choices to do the same thing. Saying No politely, indifferently or aggressively didn't matter either. The dialogue played out exactly the same.

 

It would be best if you could pick a personality during character creation, which then defines the default reaction... but still gives you the option to be nice or rude or sarcastic as you wish.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

What about Jacob's loyalty mission where Shepard guns down dozens of crewmembers who clearly are not at fault for their behavior, given that their minds have been eroded. And yet the game has the audacity to give paragon points to a Shepard who decides to bring Ronald Taylor in, despite having shown no mercy to any others.

[DaemionMoadrin]

What about Jacob's loyalty mission where Shepard guns down dozens of crewmembers who clearly are not at fault for their behavior, given that their minds have been eroded. And yet the game has the audacity to give paragon points to a Shepard who decides to bring Ronald Taylor in, despite having shown no mercy to any others.

 

That's a gameplay problem. Shep has no way to stun or disable people without killing them. And they attacked with lethal weapons, before Shep even had a clue they were not themselves.

[Seboist]

What about Jacob's loyalty mission where Shepard guns down dozens of crewmembers who clearly are not at fault for their behavior, given that their minds have been eroded. And yet the game has the audacity to give paragon points to a Shepard who decides to bring Ronald Taylor in, despite having shown no mercy to any others.

 

Which is why one should do the sensible thing and have him killed and save the Alliance some gas.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

I'm not a fan of Paragon/Renegade either for the most part, because Bioware doesn't really tell us what Paragon and Renegade are. Do they pertain to violence? Aggression? Honor? Social skills? I really have no idea. They're very inconsistent. It's better just to junk them altogether and let the player decide what they think are right and wrong, and base everything on how other characters react and in-game consequences.

[Seboist]

I'm not a fan of Paragon/Renegade either for the most part, because Bioware doesn't really tell us what Paragon and Renegade are. Do they pertain to violence? Aggression? Honor? Social skills? I really have no idea. They're very inconsistent. It's better just to junk them altogether and let the player decide what they think are right and wrong, and base everything on how other characters react and in-game consequences.

 

It's just an inconsistent mess of a system. One minute supporting criminals is "Renegade" and the next, killing criminals is also "Renegade". Then there's absurdities like a pure Paragon being able to recruit Morinth, but not someone whom played neutral.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

It's just an inconsistent mess of a system. One minute supporting criminals is "Renegade" and the next, killing criminals is also "Renegade". Then there's absurdities like a pure Paragon being able to recruit Morinth, but not someone whom played neutral.

 

Mass Effect 2 was especially bad with deciding what was Renegade and what was Paragon. I remember doing Garrus' recruitment mission the first time (I had yet to play ME1 and didn't know the characters) and when he and Shepard are introduced, I chose a dialogue choice "Garrus, is that you?" BOOM, Renegade points. There were a lot of conversations like that.

[KaiserShep]

What about Jacob's loyalty mission where Shepard guns down dozens of crewmembers who clearly are not at fault for their behavior, given that their minds have been eroded. And yet the game has the audacity to give paragon points to a Shepard who decides to bring Ronald Taylor in, despite having shown no mercy to any others.

 

If it was like Feros, where you had knockout gas that gave you the option of helping as many as you could, then that would be one thing, but you have no choice. The same can't be said of Ronald Taylor. Regardless of his actions, he's pretty much defeated and at your mercy. He has nowhere to go, and nothing to use against you, so I could go either way on him. 

 

Still, my favorite option is simply to do nothing, as in I choose only to save the remaining crew and leave Taylor to his own devices for the few seconds of life he has left. 

[AlexiaRevan]

would be nice if they make a reputation system , the + would unlock new merchants and the - could unlock some Illegal Stuff like that would cost more .