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[Dantriges]

If "normal life" lives on its own for hundreds of thousands of years without encountering the synthetic vs organic conflict in andromeda that just validates the stupidity of the catalyst and its nonsensical logic to preserve life. Then the original trilogy's story was to stop a stupid, mad AI, thats it. At least noone gives a damn about that ending confirmed as total bs, so putting intelligent life to meet in andromeda gets green light.

 

Yeah pretty much.   The catalyst isn´t mad by Leviathan standards which regarded everything as tools, gave a sh** about other species and were lazy, decadent dimwits who could have simply ordered their thralls not to build synthetics. Their control over other species is pretty much absolute if they put effort into it.

Starkid is pretty crazy from our point of view of course. And an idiot.

 

And well, we don´t know how long the Leviathan empire lasted but could be well over hundreds of thousands of years.

[Iakus]

 In other words, what separated it from being bad, and only being "weak" was the fact that it was happy. Kinda lends itself to what he was saying.

 

For a lot of people, yeah, not having the option for a happy ending made it bad.  But that's far from the only reason.  The nonsensical logic of the Catalyst, the forced transformation of the entire galaxy (or the trolling of the player if you refuse to do so) the removal of player agency, that all contributed too.

 

DAI felt weak because frankly the Elder One suffered from Villain Decay  There's little sense of menace from him past the first act, and in the end we basically just run up and punch him, roll credits.  Personally, while I find it far from perfect, it's still vastly preferable to the Catalyst.  But there was certainly a not insignificant amount of grumbling about DAI's ending being underwhelming.

[Master Warder Z_]

I need to play Guns of the Patriots now...

Its a good game.

[PhroXenGold]

I'm a ME3 ending hater, but, I wasn't looking for or expecting a happy ending from it. If I had my way, we'd've had a bittersweet one - we win, we actually defeat the Reapers, but at great cost, including Shepard sacrificing herself to achieve victory.

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm a ME3 ending hater, but, I wasn't looking for or expecting a happy ending from it. If I had my way, we'd've had a bittersweet one - we win, we actually defeat the Reapers, but at great cost, including Shepard sacrificing herself to achieve victory.

You mean himself.

[PhroXenGold]

You mean himself.

 

Nope

[Mcfly616]

For a lot of people, yeah, not having the option for a happy ending made it bad.  But that's far from the only reason.  The nonsensical logic of the Catalyst, the forced transformation of the entire galaxy (or the trolling of the player if you refuse to do so) the removal of player agency, that all contributed too.

 Most times in life, you don't get to choose whether your ending is happy. Usually there's no option. Its logic was sound. Seemed liked the epitome of player agency imo. 

 

 

 

Fyi, I didn't play DA:I (nor any DA for that matter). I was just pointing out the fact that the bit I quoted from you didn't disprove what the guy had said, it kinda supported it. Just a simple observation.

[Mcfly616]

 If I had my way, we'd've had a bittersweet one - we win, we actually defeat the Reapers, but at great cost, including Shepard sacrificing herself to achieve victory.

 That's exactly what happens in nearly every ending.

[PhroXenGold]

 That's exactly what happens in nearly every ending.

 

Not it isn't. We don't win. It is not our victory. The Starchild does some space magic to stop the Reapers. The Catalyst wins. Not us. Not Shepard. Not humanity. Not the combined races of the galaxy that you've spent the game unifying. The ****** MacGuffin does it all.

[Sidney]

For a lot of people, yeah, not having the option for a happy ending made it bad.  But that's far from the only reason.  The nonsensical logic of the Catalyst, the forced transformation of the entire galaxy (or the trolling of the player if you refuse to do so) the removal of player agency, that all contributed too.
 
DAI felt weak because frankly the Elder One suffered from Villain Decay  There's little sense of menace from him past the first act, and in the end we basically just run up and punch him, roll credits.  Personally, while I find it far from perfect, it's still vastly preferable to the Catalyst.  But there was certainly a not insignificant amount of grumbling about DAI's ending being underwhelming.

DAI had the problem of casting itself as a war and in a war if you start winning that "decay" sets in. The problem is that either you start winning or else you have to have the magical McGuffin of the Warden or giant space weapon thing that allows you to win even though you are losing. I'm sort of comfortable with the idea that by the end the EO is a beating desperate man. His delusion starts to remind me of some of the scenes from Downfall and the final days of the Reich...lots of grandiose posturing in the face of total defeat.

[Sidney]

Not it isn't. We don't win. It is not our victory. The Starchild does some space magic to stop the Reapers. The Catalyst wins. Not us. Not Shepard. Not humanity. Not the unified races of the galaxy.

The game was always about survival and surviving this cycle. We and the rest of the galaxy did. That is a victory. It is the biggest victory in the history of organic life in the galaxy. I'm not sure under any scenario how that is not a win.

[Altair_ShepardN7]

Not it isn't. We don't win. It is not our victory. The Starchild does some space magic to stop the Reapers. The Catalyst wins. Not us. Not Shepard. Not humanity. Not the combined races of the galaxy that you've spent the game unifying. The ****** MacGuffin does it all.

Wait a second, you really expected to be able to defeat the Reapers in a conventional way?

[PhroXenGold]

Wait a second, you really expected to be able to defeat the Reapers in a conventional way?

 

Given that was what you'd spent the entire rest of the trilogy doing....yes.

[Ashevajak]

The game was always about survival and surviving this cycle. We and the rest of the galaxy did. That is a victory. It is the biggest victory in the history of organic life in the galaxy. I'm not sure under any scenario how that is not a win.

 

Well, I shot the Starchild in the head.

 

That didn't turn out too great, though it was very satisfying.

[AlanC9]

DAI felt weak because frankly the Elder One suffered from Villain Decay  There's little sense of menace from him past the first act, and in the end we basically just run up and punch him, roll credits.  Personally, while I find it far from perfect, it's still vastly preferable to the Catalyst.  But there was certainly a not insignificant amount of grumbling about DAI's ending being underwhelming.

The odd thing about this is that Bio'd just had an example of VD with Harbinger in ME2. Sometimes I get the impression that the ME and DA teams don't talk to each other enough.

[Altair_ShepardN7]

Given that was what you'd spent the entire rest of the trilogy doing....yes.

I don't know, for me it was very clear from the very beginning that they weren't going to be defeated in a conventional way. 

[Mcfly616]

Not it isn't. We don't win. It is not our victory. The Starchild does some space magic to stop the Reapers. The Catalyst wins. Not us. Not Shepard. Not humanity. Not the combined races of the galaxy that you've spent the game unifying. The ****** MacGuffin does it all.

 from your own pessimistic point of view, maybe. 

 

The Catalyst doesn't need space magic to stop them, it's the central/collective consciousness of all Reapers. They are but its fingers and limbs, an extension of itself. It is the Reapers and the Reapers are it. 

[Ashevajak]

Given that was what you'd spent the entire rest of the trilogy doing....yes.

 

No you don't.

 

ME1 - requires combined Council forces to take down a single Reaper.

ME2 - Man-Reaper thing isn't complete, doesn't count as an actual Reaper.  Shepard takes down Collectors only via surprise assault on their previously unassainable base, which was not sufficiently protected.
ME3 - Reaper on Tuckunka - taken down by Kalros.  Reaper on Rannoch - taken down by combined firepower of entire Quarian Fleet.

 

Given thousands of Reapers had entered the galaxy, and it was taking entire fleets to engage a single Reaper and win, it was blatantly obvious there was no conventional military solution.  Bioware wrote themselves into a corner, and then deus ex machina'd their way out.

[AlanC9]

Given that was what you'd spent the entire rest of the trilogy doing....yes.

Specifically, we destroyed one capital-class Reaper with a massed fleet attack and a convenient barrier failure, a destroyer-class Reaper with a fleet attack, and another with a gigantic thresher maw. Not exactly a path to victory. Offscreen fleets are able to kill a couple, but the loss ratio is never favorable to organics.

[AlanC9]

Given thousands of Reapers had entered the galaxy, and it was taking entire fleets to engage a single Reaper and win, it was blatantly obvious there was no conventional military solution.  Bioware wrote themselves into a corner, and then deus ex machina'd their way out.

Well, thousands might be an exaggeration. We only see a few hundred in ME2, and ME3 retconned Reaper strength down from that by inventing the destroyer class. Still an invincible force.

I'm not sure "wrote themselves into a corner" is really the right phrase for what happened. We've never heard of the devs even considering a conventional victory in the first place. The game was always going to be about Shepard doing something that ends the war.

[Altair_ShepardN7]

Well, thousands might be an exaggeration. We only see a few hundred in ME2, and ME3 retconned Reaper strength down from that by inventing the destroyer class. Still an invincible force.

I'm not sure "wrote themselves into a corner" is really the right phrase for what happened. We've never heard of the devs even considering a conventional victory in the first place. The game was always going to be about Shepard doing something that ends the war.

Do some basic math. There are tens of thousands of reapers. 

[Amplitudelol]

Specifically, we destroyed one capital-class Reaper with a massed fleet attack and a convenient barrier failure, a destroyer-class Reaper with a fleet attack, and another with a gigantic thresher maw. Not exactly a path to victory. Offscreen fleets are able to kill a couple, but the loss ratio is never favorable to organics.

 

Good thing we had the giant microphone to take care of them. And even their millions of years of experience in terminating organics with their various methods such as indoctrinating wasnt enough to stop colonists from escaping to the Andromeda (if the rumors are true). They got sloppy. Last time they left a prothean alive now colonist ships escape. With the intervention of Space Jesus Shepard their doom was inevitable.

[Iakus]

 Most times in life, you don't get to choose whether your ending is happy. Usually there's no option. Its logic was sound. Seemed liked the epitome of player agency imo. 

 

All that shows is we don't always get a lot of agency in RL.  Mass Effect, though, claimed to celebrate player agency.

 

 

Fyi, I didn't play DA:I (nor any DA for that matter). I was just pointing out the fact that the bit I quoted from you didn't disprove what the guy had said, it kinda supported it. Just a simple observation.

I don't deny it's a contributing factor.  But there was a lot more to it than "I has a sadz"

[Iakus]

Well, thousands might be an exaggeration. We only see a few hundred in ME2, and ME3 retconned Reaper strength down from that by inventing the destroyer class. Still an invincible force.

I'm not sure "wrote themselves into a corner" is really the right phrase for what happened. We've never heard of the devs even considering a conventional victory in the first place. The game was always going to be about Shepard doing something that ends the war.

mathematically speaking, given how old the Reapers are and the apparant commonality of intelligent organic life, thousands is, if anything, understating it.

 

Tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, was far more likely.

[Ashevajak]

Well, thousands might be an exaggeration. We only see a few hundred in ME2, and ME3 retconned Reaper strength down from that by inventing the destroyer class. Still an invincible force.

I'm not sure "wrote themselves into a corner" is really the right phrase for what happened. We've never heard of the devs even considering a conventional victory in the first place. The game was always going to be about Shepard doing something that ends the war.

 

I think for all intents and purposes, an invasion force of anything above, like 20, is basically a galactic civilization ending event regardless. 

 

True, though once the Galaxy was fully invaded, that did strongly limit their options to some kind of trick or strategem or, as it turned out, a superweapon.  If the invading Reaper force had been a small vanguard, there may have been more options (seal off Mass Relays from further Reaper incursions, defeat existing Reapers).   But once they were there in large numbers, it was going to require some kind of unconventional victory.