1395 réponses à ce sujet

[Gothfather]

No.  Lack of evidence for x does not qualify as evidence for ~x.  This is a logic error.  There is no reason why we would have evidence that the Reapers went to Andromeda at the time when the ME trilogy was being written.  The writers were not thinking about  Andromeda as they wrote the trilogy, so there would be no evidence for it.  Only in hindsight can this become an issue, and since the writers are not going to make a new DLC for ME3 that discusses this one way or another, we are stuck with the same conundrum.  

 

But I'll save you the trouble of thinking about it:  The Reapers never went there because the writers say so, because they want no more Reapers ever again.  Whether or not it makes sense is irrelevant, the writers are hand waving away any problems the ME trilogy created.  Of course, they are only creating new problems, but they hope to manage them, or that the new problems are too small for anyone to care.

 

This is not a case of absence of evidence being used as evidence of absence. All reapers are destroyed with the destroy option. The energy that destroys the reapers is confined to the working mass relays which are confined to the galaxy. The catalyst clear states destroy option will kill all the reapers. It clearly states it controls all the reapers. If all reapers are destroyed and the energy to destroy them was contained within the milky way galaxy. And the intelligence that controls them is dead. Then all reapers where in the milky way galaxy and all reapers are dead. Therefore there are NO reapers in Andromeda. That is evidence.

 

We also have evidence that reapers can't reach Andromeda. Reapers where at the "dark space" relay. It took them years to go from that point to reach a second relay connected to the relay in Arrival it then took them months to reach batarian space when that relay was destroyed and still months to go from Batarian space to citadel space. Given these time scales Reapers could no reach Andromeda using mass effect technology even  in the 50,000 year times scale between the cycles.

 

As i pointed out in past threads the whole point of the mass relay system is to make exploration of space easy for new races so they don't develop in unexpected ways in terms of technology. This is clear evidence that the reapers are well aware that organics can and will develop technologies that make their mission difficult and that can be a threat. So it is not beyond the lore of the for organics to develop something reapers don't have, So us getting to Andromeda does not actually mean the reapers can get there to.

 

I have evidence, note I use the term EVIDENCE and not proof, that the Reapers are not in Andromeda actual evidence of lack and not a case of lack of evidence, There is no conflicting evidence presented at all by the other side. You can not present a theory and when people say. "where is your evidence?' turn around and say I have no evidence by lack of evidence is not evidence of lack to strengthen your argument. You have to actually present EVIDENCE to back up your theory otherwise it is simple unsubstantiated conjecture, and not worth a damn. And is becomes even more worthless when there are pieces of evidence that directly conflict with said theory.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The Relays may have used up their narrative significance, but they are still central to the setting and iconic to the franchise.

Exactly, plus they could still have a narrative significance. Even if the Citadel Relay doesn't go all the way to Andromeda, it at least goes to Dark Space which shaves off a lot of travel time and distance making the voyage easier. 

 

Would it really? I wouldn't mind seeing another form of traveling to different clusters

 

Even though it seems like we're only staying in one this game

It wouldn't feel like Mass Effect. It'd feel like any of the other science fiction series where they can magically travel any distance with an engine inside the ship. 

[AresKeith]

It wouldn't feel like Mass Effect. It'd feel like any of the other science fiction series where they can magically travel any distance with an engine inside the ship. 

 

Like I said before the Relays are not the only thing that makes Mass Effect, Mass Effect

[AlanC9]

Only because the writer says so. There was no reason for the story to be written that way. Why not let us convince the Catalyst to go away or let us find our own solution somehow, making Refusal a real, winning ending?

Because the writers never wanted to go that route, obviously. You don't always get the sort of options you'd like to have.

[AresKeith]

Only because the writer says so. There was no reason for the story to be written that way. Why not let us convince the Catalyst to go away or let us find our own solution somehow, making Refusal a real, winning ending?

 

We're talking about an AI based on the most arrogant race in Mass Effect so far

[Hanako Ikezawa]

This is not a case of absence of evidence being used as evidence of absence. All reapers are destroyed with the destroy option. The energy that destroys the reapers is confined to the working mass relays which are confined to the galaxy. The catalyst clear states destroy option will kill all the reapers. It clearly states it controls all the reapers. If all reapers are destroyed and the energy to destroy them was contained within the milky way galaxy. And the intelligence that controls them is dead. Then all reapers where in the milky way galaxy and all reapers are dead. Therefore there are NO reapers in Andromeda. That is evidence.

All that is evidence of is that all the Reapers were currently in the Milky Way. That is not evidence they have not been to other galaxies. 

 

We also have evidence that reapers can't reach Andromeda. Reapers where at the "dark space" relay. It took them years to go from that point to reach a second relay connected to the relay in Arrival it then took them months to reach batarian space when that relay was destroyed and still months to go from Batarian space to citadel space. Given these time scales Reapers could no reach Andromeda using mass effect technology even  in the 50,000 year times scale between the cycles.

As pointed out by several people, it has been calculated that the Reapers would be able to travel from the Milky Way to Andromeda in about 231 years. So going both ways takes about 462 years. Add a few centuries of harvesting and they can go there, do their thing, and be back in about a millennium, or 2% of the time between cycles. You can even do the math if you want. 2538000/(365 x 30) 

 

They spent months in Batarian space harvesting the Batarians. 

 

As i pointed out in past threads the whole point of the mass relay system is to make exploration of space easy for new races so they don't develop in unexpected ways in terms of technology. This is clear evidence that the reapers are well aware that organics can and will develop technologies that make their mission difficult and that can be a threat. So it is not beyond the lore of the for organics to develop something reapers don't have, So us getting to Andromeda does not actually mean the reapers can get there to.

So organics that have been spacefaring for only a few millennium are capable of feats synthetics that have been around for over at least a billion years aren't? That is preposterous. 

 

I have evidence, note I use the term EVIDENCE and not proof, that the Reapers are not in Andromeda actual evidence of lack and not a case of lack of evidence, There is no conflicting evidence presented at all by the other side. You can not present a theory and when people say. "where is your evidence?' turn around and say I have no evidence by lack of evidence is not evidence of lack to strengthen your argument. You have to actually present EVIDENCE to back up your theory otherwise it is simple unsubstantiated conjecture, and not worth a damn. And is becomes even more worthless when there are pieces of evidence that directly conflict with said theory.

No, you have conjecture build on your interpretations, which with the timescale post earlier is shown to be inaccurate at times. That is not evidence. There is not a single piece of actual evidence that the Reapers are limited to the Milky Way. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Like I said before the Relays are not the only thing that makes Mass Effect, Mass Effect

They are however part of what makes Mass Effect Mass Effect, thus removing them removes part of what makes Mass Effect unique to the other space science fictions. 

[Sifr]

I guess you can contrive a way to make this a possibility if you assume that some of what the Catalyst said was a lie and other stuff wasn't, but there's no rational basis for stopping at the point you're proposing here. If you don't know that Synthesis will do what it's supposed to do, how do you know that Destroy will do what it's supposed to do. This sort of thinking leads to Refuse.

 

The Reapers are capable of exerting control over their husks (organic-synthetic hybrids) created via Reaper tech, so is it really a stretch to imagine that now that all beings in the galaxy are organic-technology (including the Reapers themselves now), they still won't have that capability?

 

It's sketchier when even the Catalyst admits that the previous attempt failed. Whether he means the husks or someone had tried the same thing with their version of the Crucible but it didn't work. While the Crucibible is said to have never been completed before, we also know that it has been refined and redesigned over each Cycle, so it might not have been finished enough to run Synthesis.exe until now?

 

As for the conversation with TIM, that's a problem with the conversation options. And Sheoard isn't forced to say that TIM's insane, IIRC.

 

Although that has been the attitude that everyone has had for most of the game, including Shepard. For most of the game, when it comes to the idea of controlling the Reapers, most people have dismissed it as an insane plan of the Illusive Man's that he's come up with either as part of his ego or through the indoctrination that's affecting him.

 

Hey, if that bugs you, don't pick them.

 

I don't, because Control, while intriguing, has a lot of problems in it's execution and it's never really set up properly as a viable alternative, since the strongest proponent of it has been TIM who's been indoctrinated for most of the game. While Synthesis, even for the science of Mass Effect comes across as extremely far-fetched and reliant on magic to make it even half-way make sense.

 

Ultimately, while Destroy has the unfortunate effect of wiping out the AI (which is why I hate that ending as well), it does eliminate the Reapers which we've been trying to do for the last three games and who have caused so much suffering and misery for millions of years. I think Shepard owes it to the countless dead to destroy these Lovecraftian nightmares once and for all.

 

You mention something I'm sad to say I hadn't thought of. The Catalyst says that Organics always develop Synthetics that overpower and destroy them. Sovereign says they leave their technology so that Organics develop along paths the Reapers desire... so is it the Reapers' fault that Organics create Synthetics that destroy them?

Obviously Leviathan means the problem predates the Reapers, but it puts another layer of silliness on the premise.

 

Exactly, the Reapers leave behind just enough tech to make sure the next Cycle finds it and their own progress goes along those lines, as well as set up the Relays to point people to the Citadel, which is their backdoor into the Milky Way and allows them to lock down the network to begin the Harvest...

 

Then there's the Indoctrination devices or dead Reapers left for people to find to brainwash whatever poor foolish race finds it and perhaps take down a planet or two in the next Harvest...

 

And while it's unclear whether it was the Leviathans or the Reapers who messed with the Rachni, we know that the Reapers contacted the Geth at some point, which seems to be tainting the results of the experiment before completion. Sovereign and Harbinger have even had their own Agents (Geth and Collectors) running around preparing for the next Harvest...

 

All of this seems to predicate that the Reapers (and by extension the Catalyst) are expecting the experiment to fail from the outset?

[AlanC9]

It made the relays not blow up so that the galaxy isn't annihilated. It got the fleet away from Earth so not everyone is stranded.

Well, of course the annihilation thing was never actually true; anyone who's paying attention can see that the Citadel relay explosion can't even blow up the Citadel, let alone Earth. Plus, Normandy lands on a planet that's conspicuously un-novaed. But yeah, not everybody could figure that out, so Bio needed to change the VFX.

I don't understand how the fleet being stranded at the rendezvous point makes it any less stranded than it would be if stranded at Earth. I thought that was only to cover low-EMS cases and the Normandy's departure, myself.

[AresKeith]

They are however part of what makes Mass Effect Mass Effect, thus removing them removes part of what makes Mass Effect unique to the other space science fictions. 

 

That's subjective, because to me it doesn't as I've already stated how I view the Relays

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You mention something I'm sad to say I hadn't thought of. The Catalyst says that Organics always develop Synthetics that overpower and destroy them. Sovereign says they leave their technology so that Organics develop along paths the Reapers desire... so is it the Reapers' fault that Organics create Synthetics that destroy them?

Obviously Leviathan means the problem predates the Reapers, but it puts another layer of silliness on the premise.

Well, Leviathan does mention that the Catalyst and the Reapers see the galaxy as an experiment. Maybe each cycle they try slightly different scenarios to see what would result in the problem being removed. 

[Iakus]

Like I said before the Relays are not the only thing that makes Mass Effect, Mass Effect

But you gotta admit, they are a major symbol

[AresKeith]

But you gotta admit, they are a major symbol

 

I did say they were symbolic, but that ended with the Reaper plot 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I did say they were symbolic, but that ended with the Reaper plot 

And N7 ended with Shepard, yet their still flashing that around everywhere. 

[AlanC9]

The Reapers are capable of exerting control over their husks (organic-synthetic hybrids) created via Reaper tech, so is it really a stretch to imagine that now that all beings in the galaxy are organic-technology (including the Reapers themselves now), they still won't have that capability?

It requires a bunch of assumptions. Does being an organic-synthetic hybrid automatically make a being Realer-controllable? If so, then why isn't the partly-synthetic Shepard not already under control. Of course, you can contrive ways to make Reaper control work any way you want it to if you try hard enough and aren't too concerned with consistency,

It's sketchier when even the Catalyst admits that the previous attempt failed. Whether he means the husks or someone had tried the same thing with their version of the Crucible but it didn't work. While the Crucibible is said to have never been completed before, we also know that it has been refined and redesigned over each Cycle, so it might not have been finished enough to run Synthesis.exe until now?

Sure, Synthesis might fail. Any of the choices might fail. The device has never been used.
 

 

Although that has been the attitude that everyone has had for most of the game, including Shepard. For most of the game, when it comes to the idea of controlling the Reapers, most people have dismissed it as an insane plan of the Illusive Man's that he's come up with either as part of his ego or through the indoctrination that's affecting him.

So what? People are wrong about stuff in ME all the time. This is just one more case.

[AresKeith]

And N7 ended with Shepard, yet their still flashing that around everywhere. 

 

Shepard wasn't the only N7 so that's comparing Apples and Oranges 

[AresKeith]

Sending Reapers into Andromeda (or anywhere else) would allow him to glean more results for his little shop of horrors, but it's a level of outside the box thinking that we clearly see him lack, since not once in millions of years has he realised that the problem in the Milky Way between man and machine was often down to his interference rigging the results each Cycle.

 

We're we even given the option to call him out on that? Because that's very true

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Shepard wasn't the only N7 so that's comparing Apples and Oranges 

Not really. Both are symbols of the franchise, and since the protagonist isn't one according to Bioware and we aren't even part of the Alliance according to the leak then it has no narrative significance. But that one being in the game is fine. 

[AresKeith]

Not really. Both are symbols of the franchise, and since the protagonist isn't one according to Bioware and we aren't even part of the Alliance according to the leak then it has no narrative significance. But that one being in the game is fine. 

 

N7 was not a symbol of the franchise, that's like saying Spectres were which they also wasn't 

[Gothfather]

/snip other conversations with other posters

 

While you are correct that there could be research, technology, and advancement the Reapers don't expect, these are not great examples. The Reaper killing cannon was just an enormous mass accelerator. It wasn't some great leap in technology. The Crucible was a direct response to the Reaper attack, not some previously developed technology.

 

That bolded line is what the end of ME3 should have been.

 

It doesn't matter what the end of ME3 should have been. That isn't germane to ME:A. ME:A to be a Mass Effect title has to deal with the good and the bad of the ME universe and its lore. Retcon is almost always a loser with fans and while there is a majority of people who don't like the endings of ME3 there are a significant number of people who do like them. I feel the reasons the endings sucked is because they started ME1 with no idea how to end the trilogy, they started ME2 with no idea how to end the trilogy and they started ME3 with no idea how to end the trilogy. When they were almost finish development of the game they had to delay it yet again because the ending still wasn't done. That is the real reason the endings failed because they had no idea what the end game was when they started the series.

 

The endings of ME3 create endings that are too divergent from each other to make a viable game post ME in citadel space. Doesn't matter what should have been done or how bad the endings were implemented they are what they are. And this problem exists even if the endings were a masterpiece and people just went on and on how great they were. They would still create such divergent world states that a story can't be told that works in all possible endings.

 

So you can either change location and ME doesn't require a set location or you remove player agency and that isn't a popular choice. So they said we will change locations. QQing what they should have done in ME3 is pointless now. It is done and gone. the new series is set in Andromeda and players are either going to have to suck it up or not play. This is ME:A not ME4 and they told us time and time again not to call it ME4 and that it isn't going to be the 4th instalment of the current ME story.

 

SO if people were hoping for Shepard and some kind of game to fix the endings of ME3 they are not going to get it and frankly I am glad. I am done with the Reapers and the Shepard story. I want new stories told in the universe of mass effect. And if the stories are told in the same universe the easiest way to identify them as such is with Mass Effect in the title.

[In Exile]

The Catalyst:  "Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics" 

 

Listening to the entire Catalyst conversation, i found nothing that indicated that they were only supposed to protect life in this galaxy.  

 

Leviathan: " To solve this problem, we created an intelligence with the mandate to preserve life at any cost"

Leviathan:  "The intelligence has one purpose:  the preservation of life."

 

The Leviathan refers to the galaxy and the cycles as "an experiment" but that's as far as it goes.  The mandate is universal in scope.

 

Yeah, but that makes it even more nonsensical, because it starts to get into stuff like "AI isn't alive because it isn't made of meat", and slurpees certainly don't preserve life. It's just nonsense. Don't try to understand the gibberish logic. The Reapers "preserve" life by exterminating large swaths of it, so they clearly have some kind of calculus. But AI is obviously life, so just allowing it to exterminate all organics achieves the end goal anyway. But that kind of life doesn't count...

 

It just is a nonsense circle. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

N7 was not a symbol of the franchise, that's like saying Spectres were which they also wasn't 

Yes it was. It was the cover of games, books, etc. 

[Gothfather]

All that is evidence of is that all the Reapers were currently in the Milky Way. That is not evidence they have not been to other galaxies. 

 

As pointed out by several people, it has been calculated that the Reapers would be able to travel from the Milky Way to Andromeda in about 231 years. So going both ways takes about 462 years. Add a few centuries of harvesting and they can go there, do their thing, and be back in about a millennium, or 2% of the time between cycles. You can even do the math if you want. 2538000/(365 x 30) 

 

They spent months in Batarian space harvesting the Batarians. 

 

So organics that have been spacefaring for only a few millennium are capable of feats synthetics that have been around for over at least a billion years aren't? That is preposterous. 

 

No, you have conjecture build on your interpretations, which with the timescale post earlier is shown to be inaccurate at times. That is not evidence. There is not a single piece of actual evidence that the Reapers are limited to the Milky Way. 

Really?

 

Even if you concede that the reapers where in other galaxies that is irrelevant and not something that has to be dealt with at all. The reaper crisis is solved. All the endings SOLVE the reaper crisis. All reapers are in the milky way during ME3 and therefore all reapers are dealt with. There is no EVIDENCE at all the shows you have to use magic hand waving to explain why there are no reapers in Andromeda. You already stated that my evidence show all reapers are in the milky way galaxy. So there are NO reapers in Andromeda, because all the reapers are shown to be in the Milky way. The series dealt with ALL the reapers in the milky way galaxy.

 

This entire argument is because fools are saying you have to use magic hand waving to explain why there is no reaper threat in ME:A. There is no evidence that there is a reaper threat in Andromeda. I show clearly that ALL reapers were in the milky way in ME3 at the time the crucible is used. How does my evidence not actually show that there are NO reapers in Andromeda? It sure is 100% evidence of lack. If all the reapers are in the milky way and all the endings deal with the reapers in the milky way. Then there are no reapers in Andromeda. Which means you don't need to explain them away with additional space magic why there are no reapers in Andromeda and why they are no longer a threat. The series already dealt with the reaper crisis. The reapers are no longer a problem period. Please show ANY evidence this is not the case.

[AresKeith]

Yes it was. It was the cover of games, books, etc. 

 

Shepard having the N7 on his armor in the game covers does not automatically make it a symbol of the franchise 

 

And the books? No it wasn't 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Shepard having the N7 on his armor in the game covers does not automatically make it a symbol of the franchise 

 

And the books? No it wasn't 

No, I mean on a game cover, and the stetegy guide for that game, had nothing but an N7 on it.