Aller au contenu

Photo

People throwing Mass Effect Andromeda under the bus a full year before its release.


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
1395 réponses à ce sujet

#901
Maniccc

Maniccc
  • Members
  • 372 messages

                                                                                               <<<<<<<<<<0>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Snip

Yes, but I have no desire to go through all this again.  In brief, control does not necessarily mean the Reapers have no awareness or capacity for independent thought.

 

The suggestion that the mere fact that the reapers have DNA vats leads to sapience is, to say the least, nonsense. Bioware's never bothered to go into what makes reapers "alive", and ME3 effectively dropped any semblance of a role for individual reapers (apart from that one reaper on Rannoch). 

 

The idea, however, that what makes repears special (or even alive) flows from their being filled with organic slurpee doesn't make sense, even within ME3's nonsense science. 

You are making a strawman.  I never said having DNA meant that they were individuals with awareness or were alive.  I said it was one (among several) facts that suggest they might be more than mere objects.



#902
Monica

Monica
  • Members
  • 22 messages

Why are people so keen to dismiss MEA so early on? It it because of DAI(a completely different kind of game), or are they still sore over an ending to a game that came out 3 years ago. It just doesn't make sense. People should just grow up, let go of past slights & give this brand new game in a much beloved franchise a break.

It's because they are scared, my friend. It is no justification, but I understand them. You said it, this is a truly loved franchaise, and the developers are throwing themselves to danger with a new protagonist, a new galaxy, a new era. All this right after a game, the end of the Shepard triology, that left 90% unsatisfied. They are scared this is not a leap of faith, but the developers themselves just giving up and doing it for the money. I personally am too scared their inspiration is worn out. 


  • Amirit aime ceci

#903
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 732 messages

The suggestion that the mere fact that the reapers have DNA vats leads to sapience is, to say the least, nonsense. Bioware's never bothered to go into what makes reapers "alive", and ME3 effectively dropped any semblance of a role for individual reapers (apart from that one reaper on Rannoch).

The idea, however, that what makes repears special (or even alive) flows from their being filled with organic slurpee doesn't make sense, even within ME3's nonsense science.

I've lost the thread here. Is Reaper sapience itself at issue?

#904
Iakus

Iakus
  • Members
  • 30 388 messages

It's because they are scared, my friend. It is no justification, but I understand them. You said it, this is a truly loved franchaise, and the developers are throwing themselves to danger with a new protagonist, a new galaxy, a new era. All this right after a game, the end of the Shepard triology, that left 90% unsatisfied. They are scared this is not a leap of faith, but the developers themselves just giving up and doing it for the money. I personally am too scared their inspiration is worn out. 

It doesn't really help that Bioware essentially blames the player for not liking the endings to ME3, saying we were "confused" or "needed closure".  With an attitude like that, why should we be optimistic about the future of the franchise?


  • Natureguy85 aime ceci

#905
Iakus

Iakus
  • Members
  • 30 388 messages

I've lost the thread here. Is Reaper sapience itself at issue?

Well "We are each a nation.  Independent.  Free of All weaknesses" and 'I control the Reapers.  They are my solution" are kinda at odds  :D

 

My own interpretation is Reapers are just really really big husks given the illusion of intelligence by the Catalyst. ;)


  • Sartoz aime ceci

#906
phagus

phagus
  • Members
  • 367 messages

I like your ability to miss the point. I replied to that post rather than the old one but you were still making the same claim in either. The existence of Giant Eagles is an issue of Suspension of Disbelief. Why they don't fly Frodo to Mt. Doom is not.

I wouldn't claim other people have missed the point, while you are actually missing the point. Try re-reading my original reply to someone else post in context to what they said and the point I was trying to make. Then read my last post in context to what you said. It should then dawn on you that I was saying that using the LOTR Eagles wasn't a particularly good decision on my part. Unsurprisingly, because of all the misunderstanding it has caused about the point I was trying to make.

 

Now, breaking of suspension of disbelief was what I was talking about. And the last point I was making was: Giant Eagles in a fantasy setting are less likely to break suspension of disbelief than the question of why they weren't used to get to Mordor in the first place, (if no obvious answer is given in the narrative). And yes, Giant Eagles is an issue of suspension of disbelief, albeit not much of one in a fantasy setting, but so is answering the question of why they weren't used.

 

Your statement that "Why they don't fly Frodo to Mt. Doom is not" an issue of suspension of disbelief as fact, will need some explanation on your part given what I have said.

 

And yes, I am now, more than ever, wishing I hadn't used LOTR Eagles to make my original point. If I can still remember it correctly after all the talk of Giant Eagles. That some suspension of disbelief is needed when experiencing any work of fiction, be it scfi or fantasy, and if something within the plot breaks it the narrative has failed. And finally back on topic, that my suspension of disbelief was fully broken when the Catalyst arrived at the end of ME3.



#907
Gothfather

Gothfather
  • Members
  • 1 418 messages

to Gothfather. You previewing whole universe from our human history : "Took us 200,000 years to reach the moon, and that has always been part of our known universe" but according to ME are last race admitted to citadel.

lets recall "facts" --- lore

Game begins 214 year after  landing on the moon. And humanity is able to build starfleet.

Asari and other races were there for thousands of years. And they can build enormous star ships  that can one shot any human battlecruiser

Reper war at previous cycle took generations according to Javik. So current conflict might take couple of centuries too.

Proteans had technology to keep in stasis their ppl for 50.000 years.

Base in Archives was working couple thousands of years, keeping 12 scientists alive while killing thousands of other .

Quarians build their fleet during Geth War. Their fleet was 300 year on the move. They are good example of long distant flight(ofc they need supply from time to time but they are not hibernated).

FTL makes possible to reach Andromeda in 500 years.

 

Why they decided to stay if they could flee and save much more people? They had everything. Technology and time. You will say they were scattered... yes, but they fought  guerilla war "planet by planet sacrificing millions" 

 

When all stand on the edge of extinction why didn't they pack children in hibernators and sent them away? Even ppl in London 1940 did that? Ofc children were not hibernated.

If I was at command during reaper war I would newer do risky project like crucible (maybe as a second option). Stand and fight just to fight, is stupid option... I would pack whole genetic heritage and as much intellectual knowledge and send it away, even to Andromeda using star fleet as decoy to save it.

During leviathan solution there were thousands of cycles. And all of those cycles didn't invent right option leave galaxy empty for reapers? You do not have to fly to Andromeda . There are couple of dwarf galaxies much closer eg. Magellan Cloud and they are, as you say, behind "solution" zone which is confined to Milky Way.

You say : "Shepard resurfaces after presumed death with a fanciful story of being dead but alive now and is working for a terrorist organization. Losing most credibility with most people Shepard might have convinced people beside close friends. Why would a rational person think you know I should create a contingency plan for escaping the galaxy." but there is and always will be "worst scenario" planning, especially if there is even faint evidence of genocide. look at governments they do that. There is always plan B, C and D. Probably ME:A is effect of such planing. But we are not first and last that encountered reapers and Milky Way is not portion of the universe with strict boundaries. Conflict with the reapers and synthetics can not be confined to our galaxy only

 

You are living in a fantasy world. people do not plan to evacuate an entire country when an enemy invades. This idea of worse case scenario planning is fiction. Name a country name a goverment that has in place a plan to take their population put them on ships and sail away as a worse case plan just in case they get invaded? Contingency plans are LIMITED in scale. You never plan to evac an entire population of a country. At best cities have systems in play that let the cities population evac themselves aka flee the city, but the city itself doesn't have the resources to move it's own population. It has to let the population move itself.

 

The Quarians are a good example yes, of why you can't get to Andromeda using current ME technology.  They don't need to stop and resupply from time to time, it is an constant issue for them. Their entire culture has evolved around this issue, the coming of age pilgrimage is all about the constant need to resupply the fleet. If supply wasn't a constant worry you wouldn't build your culture around a coming of age that proves you wont be a burden to a ship and you sure as hell wouldn't send your young adults into exile until they prove their worth unless the benifits gained out strip the loss in population as some will fail, some will die and some will leave the fleet. The quarian fleet shows you can't cross the distances with ME technology some break through is needed. That we have in the current cycle. The game clearly shows that the energy demands for suspended animation are huge. Which is why all the prothean suspended animation attempts failed, and that tech isn't viable in this cycle.

 

Just because the current technology has engines that can breach the intergalactic void in 500 years doesn't mean there are technologies that can transport vast numbers of people and make them 100% self sufficient with no ability to restock in a crisis. No one is going to make a plan to do this 'just in case.' You may find refugees from the milky way galaxy in Andromeda but they are not going to be the norm. Some breakthrough is going to be required to get the races of the milky way to Andromeda.

 

The protheans did flee they fled within the LIMITS of their technology, going from system to system. You have zero experience with supply I can see that now. None of your points ever take into consideration of just how much supplies people require. We have technologies to get to Mars, we just don't have technologies to get a manned mission to Mars because the supply requirements are HUGE. The propulsion and navigations systems are easy its all those other technologies of keeping people alive in the vast empty gulf of space that is the problem. The gulf between the galaxies is even greater you refuse to address this because you aren't thinking critically about it. You think the limitation to getting to Andromeda was only the FTL drives but that isn't the key limitation.


  • Danimals847 aime ceci

#908
Gothfather

Gothfather
  • Members
  • 1 418 messages

/snipped because its pointless to argue this

 

"The Shepard" was a slap in the face because it took the three games and said "It was all a story". Again, you're right that they ended up going the Messianic route but it was done poorly and didn't work. You can look at certain things in the first game and make them fit with just a little effort, but it didn't take shape until ME2.

 

Err 'The shepard' epilogue is not taking the three games and saying 'it is all a story.' It was an older generation telling the younger generation about a great war that everyone living today owes their freedom to the people who fought it. Much like how people talk to children about WWII and why it is important to remember those who fought in the war. It was a clip showing that the future generations that "The Shepard" saved remember. They remember the war and what was done to save them It was not saying its was all a story. The fact that you got that from the clip explains why you think ME2 they suddenly out of left field went on the Messiah kick.

 

You don't seem to be judging scenes in the context of the series but judging them in isolation. ME1 clearly shows the messiah story was INTENDED, because they added aspect that fit the messiah archetype before ME2 and they continued them through all three games. ME2 and ME3 provides the context to show ME1 intended the Messiah story. If you just took ME1 alone in isolation there isn't enough proof to definitively say it is a Messiah story but why would you do that? Why view ME1 in isolation when it is part of an interconnected series?



#909
Gothfather

Gothfather
  • Members
  • 1 418 messages

This doesn't make any sense.  There is a huge difference between the Reapers and the organics they harvest, and the husks they create, the technologies they subvert to aid their harvests.  If you think about it, actually, it's better to have each Reaper as an individual capable of independent thought in order to deal with localized unexpected issues.

Besides, ignoring the whole each Reaper is an individual nation line, we know that each Reaper is a vessel for unique DNA, embodying a species.  

 

These things actually disagree with your conclusions.

 

Each reaper is unique but it is not independent. Indoctrination makes you a puppet. Leviathans control via indoctrination. Leviathans made the catalyst to stop their slave races from destroying themselves. What they made it without the ability to exert control? That makes no sense. The reapers are controlled by the Catalyst.

 

"I control the reapers, they are my solution" https://youtu.be/va-...eJbFO8AU?t=45s  That is a direct quote. Reapers and leviathans all use indoctrination to control. The only logical conclusion is that the catalyst also uses indoctrination to control the reapers. Note that the Catalyst doesn't say i am the leader of the Reapers or ruler he say I control the reapers. That has very specific meaning and that shows that the reapers are not independent . Unique yes but not independent. 



#910
Natureguy85

Natureguy85
  • Members
  • 3 273 messages

 

: Giant Eagles in a fantasy setting are less likely to break suspension of disbelief than the question of why they weren't used to get to Mordor in the first place, (if no obvious answer is given in the narrative). And yes, Giant Eagles is an issue of suspension of disbelief, albeit not much of one in a fantasy setting, but so is answering the question of why they weren't used.

 

If you're combining plot holes and suspension of disbelief, which makes sense because plot holes can strain SoD, then I understand. However, the original conversation separated the two, which is why I said what I did.

 

 

Bioware has already done that- "Leliana dead? I don't think so, players." "You killed the Rachni queen? We found another one." "Destroyed the Collector base? It didn't even slow Cerberus down." "Your Revan was a woman or wasn't interested in bratty Bastila? Too bad, our Revan impregnated her and started a Shan dynasty."

 

To be fair, the Revan one is more excusable because they are working within someone else's IP.

 

The better question is: How did Saren/Sovereign even know about the Conduit?

 

Follow up: Why would they go to all that trouble, exposing themselves and warning the galaxy of the Reaper threat if there are a much easier ways for a Spectre to walk into the Council chambers (you know, like Shepard does all the time)?

 

Another question: Why draw attention to the Thorian with the attempt to destroy it? No one would have known about it without the Geth attack.

 

Yet another: Why would Sovereign go to Eden Prime itself, if Geth ships could do the job just as well?

 

Last one: Why clone Krogans? Whatever are they good for?

 

Yes, how they knew about the Conduit is a great question. As for there being easier ways to get to the console, that was the mistake of using the Council chambers. As much as I like the Relay Monument being the Conduit, up until that point I thought the Conduit was going to take us to the hidden parts of the Citadel.

 

The Thorian is a simple villain mistake. He's attempting to cover his tracks but it backfires. He probably didn't know the colonists would protect the Thorian.

 

On Eden Prime, why not? Sovereign wants to make sure Saren gets to the beacon and Saren is riding around on Sovereign anyway.

 

As for the Krogan, they are perfect shock troops. They will be useful for the overall extermination.

 

Err 'The shepard' epilogue is not taking the three games and saying 'it is all a story.' It was an older generation telling the younger generation about a great war that everyone living today owes their freedom to the people who fought it. Much like how people talk to children about WWII and why it is important to remember those who fought in the war. It was a clip showing that the future generations that "The Shepard" saved remember. They remember the war and what was done to save them It was not saying its was all a story. The fact that you got that from the clip explains why you think ME2 they suddenly out of left field went on the Messiah kick.

 

You don't seem to be judging scenes in the context of the series but judging them in isolation. ME1 clearly shows the messiah story was INTENDED, because they added aspect that fit the messiah archetype before ME2 and they continued them through all three games. ME2 and ME3 provides the context to show ME1 intended the Messiah story. If you just took ME1 alone in isolation there isn't enough proof to definitively say it is a Messiah story but why would you do that? Why view ME1 in isolation when it is part of an interconnected series?

 

When I say it was a story, I don't mean that it didn't happen necessarily. I mean you're not playing the events as they happen. The entire 3 game series is that old man (or woman with refuse) telling that child the story of "the Shepard".

 

You can always look at earlier works in isolation, especially if things weren't planned out as a whole, because later work can change the meaning of something that happened earlier. An easy example is Star Wars. When A New Hope came out, Darth Vader was not Anakin Skywalker. Obi-Wan told Luke the plain truth. The idea of Vader being Luke's father came later, which changed what Obi-Wan said, requiring the "point of view" conversation in Return of the Jedi. Further, things that happen in the Prequels make you look at things in the Originals differently. So while you can't look at ME2 without the context of ME1, you can look at ME1 alone because it came first. I can easily argue that you only see the things in ME1 as the Messiah archetype because it's so blatant from ME2 onward.



#911
Sartoz

Sartoz
  • Members
  • 4 533 messages

It doesn't really help that Bioware essentially blames the player for not liking the endings to ME3, saying we were "confused" or "needed closure".  With an attitude like that, why should we be optimistic about the future of the franchise?

 

                                                                               <<<<<<<<<<0>>>>>>>>>>

 

Perhaps because the ME3 ending fiasco taught them a lesson?

 

In other words, the Andromeda game will be totally different. Could be just a single stand alone game. with new rules, hostiles, adventure and a clear objective, which is to start colonizing and controlling and holding its own. Something similar to DA2 without its drawbacks. On another bright side, , the early choices can lead to a colony that  is established and humanity is now entrenched and influential in the Helious Cluster or on the dark side the colony fails and humanity must go Pathfinding elsewhere.......
 



#912
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

You are making a strawman.  I never said having DNA meant that they were individuals with awareness or were alive.  I said it was one (among several) facts that suggest they might be more than mere objects.

 

No. But I am failing to get my point across, so let me rephrase.

 

You can't infer, either from the fact of their being DNA receptacles alone, or from that fact in conjunction with any other fact, that the reapers are individuals with awareness or "alive". This is because being a DNA receptacle is, by what amounts to definition, a non-living object. Put differently, "storage" is not one of those things we associate with living things. 

 

 

I've lost the thread here. Is Reaper sapience itself at issue?

 

I guess? It came up at some point. 


  • Natureguy85 aime ceci

#913
dreamgazer

dreamgazer
  • Members
  • 15 759 messages

I've lost the thread here. Is Reaper sapience itself at issue?


Somewhere amongst the angst, it came up. I also added a reply about the Reapers obeying the order-over-chaos cycles and hibernating until they have to do it again as a contradiction to this presentation of "independence", but oh well. They also aren't free of all weakness, either.

Seemed obvious to me the entire time that something greater was pulling their strings. They have independent thoughts, but they sure weren't independent.

#914
Mcfly616

Mcfly616
  • Members
  • 8 995 messages

It's because they are scared, my friend. It is no justification, but I understand them. You said it, this is a truly loved franchaise, and the developers are throwing themselves to danger with a new protagonist, a new galaxy, a new era. All this right after a game, the end of the Shepard triology, that left 90% unsatisfied. They are scared this is not a leap of faith, but the developers themselves just giving up and doing it for the money. I personally am too scared their inspiration is worn out. 

 Speak for yourself. Barely anybody minds moving onto a new protagonist. Most people are excited. The only people that really care what era it's in are those that want a direct sequel. Mostly, all anybody really is complaining about is the move to an entirely different galaxy.

 

But scared? :rolleyes:   More like disappointed or indifferent. 



#915
dreamgazer

dreamgazer
  • Members
  • 15 759 messages
The idea of a new protag without Shepard's baggage is one of Andromeda's biggest selling points this far out.
  • PhroXenGold, In Exile, Rovay et 3 autres aiment ceci

#916
NeonFlux117

NeonFlux117
  • Members
  • 3 627 messages
They're just doing this game for the money and cause EA is telling the so. Hudson and Drew K. always intended ME as a trilogy.

So this game is just an EA shill, and by the looks at many comments here and other places, people are willing to give them more money.

In short, play it or don't. It's just a game, don't think about to hard.

#917
KaiserShep

KaiserShep
  • Members
  • 23 850 messages

So this game is just an EA shill, and by the looks at many comments here and other places, people are willing to give them more money.

 

And why not? As one who has enjoyed the entire ME trilogy and all three DA games so far, I feel like BioWare's earned enough trust from me to buy another product of theirs. EA can shill whatever it wants. The principle of the thing doesn't matter so long as the game is fun, and of course, that EA isn't giving its money to some horrible organization, like the Stormfront Brony Alliance or something. 


  • Cyberstrike nTo, JoltDealer, pdusen et 2 autres aiment ceci

#918
NeonFlux117

NeonFlux117
  • Members
  • 3 627 messages
It's your time and money, do what you please.

#919
Gothfather

Gothfather
  • Members
  • 1 418 messages

The idea of a new protag without Shepard's baggage is one of Andromeda's biggest selling points this far out.

 

I agree.

 

I love Shepard's Story but I'm over it. I don't want to see the same character over and over and over again. This is how franchises get stale, by refusing to tell new stories with new characters.

 

And frankly I am so over the AI vs organic conflict in Sci-fi. It is getting a bit stale now like zombie games.



#920
Gothfather

Gothfather
  • Members
  • 1 418 messages

They're just doing this game for the money and cause EA is telling the so. Hudson and Drew K. always intended ME as a trilogy.

So this game is just an EA shill, and by the looks at many comments here and other places, people are willing to give them more money.

In short, play it or don't. It's just a game, don't think about to hard.

 

You say it like it is a bad thing.

 

Do you work? i assume you do. Do you expect to get paid for your labour? i assume you do.

 

Why is it somehow wrong for a company to want to make a game so you will pay for it?

 

'They're just doing it for the money,' Is the insult of the childish. We all expect to get pay for our work and using that expectation as some kind of moral failing on EA's or any game developer's part is asinine.


  • Lee T, JoltDealer, Il Divo et 3 autres aiment ceci

#921
JoltDealer

JoltDealer
  • Members
  • 1 091 messages

See this is the reason I bounce back and forth between frequenting this forum and not at all.  I like dealing with my fellow Bioware fans and the good, contributing members of this forum are some of the best to discuss upcoming titles with.  Then you have the rabid "fans" who prefer to sully every topic, debate, and conversation with their intense loathing and detestment of just about anything.  If it gets changed or fixed, they then complain about the changes because it wasn't how they envisioned it, or they just rant about how the older version they hated was better than this new one.  There's no rhyme or reason to it -- I am legitimately amazed sometime at how far some of these people will segue any innocuous or mundane topic into a reason for them to express their displeasure yet again.

 

Even now, one of those guys is going to read my post and get angry.  Maybe they'll try to say that it's the devs' responsibility to please their customers or they'll once again explain how something is an affront to the series as a whole because it's not the way that they envisioned it.  Almost all of the time, they will state how they deserve this, this, and that, and it seems that they will only be satisfied once each and every one of them gets their way without any compromises. 

 

To that I say, the devs' responsibility is to the customers and not "you", individually -- they take every special little snowflake into account.  Also, you get whatever story or ending the writers come up with.  If you have a problem with that, go write a book, make a movie, or, better yet, make your own game.  Demanding that an artist change their work because you don't like something about it is just wrong and, in many ways, is a form a censorship.  And finally, you don't deserve jack.  You might think you do, but once you buy the game, you've served your purpose to the machine and the gears continue turning in spite of your opinion.  Any further actions by the dev beyond that are a wholly unnecessary courtesy to their fans and should not be expected, much less demanded.

 

But to all the good guys out there, I love you all.  You give me food for thought and great conversation.  I can't wait for Andromeda to come out.


  • pdusen aime ceci

#922
jak11164

jak11164
  • Members
  • 180 messages

Gothfather....

and after your long an in depth and really extensive explanations

How unprepared and unconvinced unplanned .. whatever  humanity is

All of sudden  The "ArkCon" and Pathfinder Initiative from civilization "that in 2015 is unable send people to Mars" , last one that discovered mass effect and FTL flight

Is able to sent to Andromeda probably something like this:

4FxmiKv.jpg

Congrats!  You made whole ME:A plot impossible to explain..Thanks

If I were to prepare salvation mission for humanity (as a species) I would be sending frozen container of embryos that would provide genetic diversity, technology to breed that embryos and  memory bank to revive civilization. Maybe couple of deep frozen guardians to operate the system. No giant spaceship is needed no tons of supplies. Just spacecraft with huge battery to reach destination. This is low cost mission and might be commanded in multiple directions to be sure that some succeed



#923
Natureguy85

Natureguy85
  • Members
  • 3 273 messages

To that I say, the devs' responsibility is to the customers and not "you", individually -- they take every special little snowflake into account.  

 

Also, you get whatever story or ending the writers come up with.  If you have a problem with that, go write a book, make a movie, or, better yet, make your own game.  Demanding that an artist change their work because you don't like something about it is just wrong and, in many ways, is a form a censorship.

 

These two statements could be seen as contradictory, but I have to respond to the bolded line because I hate this foolish notion. There is nothing sacred about an artists work just because they came up with it. Most art, especially books and movies, get edited. Any artist who holds onto their "artistic vision" and won't submit themselves to this process has almost certainly resigned themselves to unknown status and guaranteed their work will never see the light of day.


  • Milkmaid79 aime ceci

#924
9TailsFox

9TailsFox
  • Members
  • 3 715 messages

These two statements could be seen as contradictory, but I have to respond to the bolded line because I hate this foolish notion. There is nothing sacred about an artists work just because they came up with it. Most art, especially books and movies, get edited. Any artist who holds onto their "artistic vision" and won't submit themselves to this process has almost certainly resigned themselves to unknown status and guaranteed their work will never see the light of day.

And video games is product of entertainment first and "art" second.


  • Natureguy85 aime ceci

#925
Iakus

Iakus
  • Members
  • 30 388 messages

The idea of a new protag without Shepard's baggage is one of Andromeda's biggest selling points this far out.

I do agree with this, even if I think they are going about it the wrong way.


  • Natureguy85 aime ceci