1395 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

And unfortunately, they chose the worst of those three options.

A subjective opinion. Many, including myself have the also subjective opinion that Bioware chose the best option.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

A subjective opinion. Many, including myself have the also subjective opinion that Bioware chose the best option.

 I never said it was objective. 

[dragonflight288]

You may not have, but it was written as if it is fact that Bioware made the worst choice.

Anywho, I'm tired and going to bed. Not at my best mentally and at risk at reading more into people's posts than is there.

Good night.

[AlanC9]

Except by running away from the issues Bioware has learned nothing from them and if Bioware ends up making the same mistakes again how exactly are they going to deal with them?

No matter how many times you repeat this "argument," it doesn't get any more convincing. (Quotes there because you're not actually making one.) Could you at least change the phrasing a bit so it looks like you're participating in the conversation?

Seriously, dude, you've been called on this over and over. At least try to make a case. Defining what you mean by "mistakes" would be a good place to start.

[Nohvarr]

And for anyone above that truly thinks without statistics to prove that the majority of the fan base was pissed with the ending of the trilogy and loss of faith in ME franchise, has to be delusional. I don't think I've seen any game get such publicity and all of it negative.

The question is, does the majority of the fanbase want to go back and spend time "fixing" something instead of moving forward.

 

Except by running away from the issues Bioware has learned nothing from them and if Bioware ends up making the same mistakes again how exactly are they going to deal with them?

 

Bioware not following your solution isn't proof they haven't learned anything and you saying otherwise is not a compelling argument over what I've already seen.

[Sartoz]

In five or ten years time, BioWare is going to have a whole mess of new problems players are going to be demanding answers to. If they're going to address this, and it would be moronic not to, the time to do it is now. The problem of having more lore is entirely avoidable by doing so as well.

 

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That's an assumption.

[Sartoz]

Seeing as how ME3's endings caused a significant outrage, its not unreasonable to assume that there are others who are skeptical about the next game. Because so far Bioware has nothing to show that they've learned from their mistakes.

 

It doesn't matter how Bioware does it, all that matters is that Bioware deals with them instead of sidestepping them as if they never happened.

 

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Oh, what a ton of manure.

 

I agree that there was significant outrage... no question about that.

 

You other nonsense is just that... nonsene. The game isn't even in the starting gate and you condemn the game and Bio.

[Sartoz]

I don't see how this solves anything. Even if our new PCs don't know what happened on the Citadel, we still do.

 

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You guys are hung up on "solving" something in Shep's universe that is now dead. No matter how well or most badly ME3 ended, it is ended, finished, thrown down the well.

 

There is no "solving" because it can never be "solved" to everyone's satisfaction. You and others belong to the "fix this camp" while others belong to "forget and move on camp".  This impasse alone ought to tell you Bio can never come up witth a universal solution.

 

Flogging a dead horse won't bring it back to life......Bio stated the new game is in Andromeda.  So, you will either buy the game or not.  Your choice.

[Sartoz]

But you are revisiting Sheps universe, as Andromeda is part of that universe.

 

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No. You are mistaken in that. I'm revisiting the Mass Effect IP.

 

Shep's universe consists of Shep, Liara, Garrus, Jack... etc, plus the Citadel, the Collectors, the Reapers,  Geth, Quarians ...etc

 

Andromeda has non of the above. Andromeda will have some of the species form the MW, some of its weapon tech, the history of the MW in the Codex and that's it.

[Zatche]

The hurdle here is in the short run with making Andromeda a success. If it is that means that enough fans, new and old, bought into the game's premise and weren't bothered by moving on from the Milky Way.

At that point the "long run" will involve making sequels to a well-received game and letting 2012 issues stay in the past.

I'm imagining that a good amount of players will be able to buy into the premise, simply because they don't scrutinize the lore that much, and they just want to have fun playing a new Mass Effect game. Or they'll question the premise, but not really care that much...because they just want to have fun, playing a new Mass Effect game.

[Il Divo]

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You guys are hung up on "solving" something in Shep's universe that is now dead. No matter how well or most badly ME3 ended, it is ended, finished, thrown down the well.

 

There is no "solving" because it can never be "solved" to everyone's satisfaction. You and others belong to the "fix this camp" while others belong to "forget and move on camp".  This impasse alone ought to tell you Bio can never come up witth a universal solution.

 

Flogging a dead horse won't bring it back to life......Bio stated the new game is in Andromeda.  So, you will either buy the game or not.  Your choice.

 

Alan is not part of the "fix this camp", to be clear. 

[Arcian]

It kind of does mean exactly that.

 

The more time passes, the fewer and fewer players have played the original content. Fewer people know or care about it. It becomes less and less practical to build a plot off. More lore gets added that continually has to be complied with.
 

Unless you are trying to imply players are dying like flies after finishing the game, this statement makes zero sense.

[Nethershadow]

There isn't a scenario where BioWare wouldn't be seen as side-stepping the trilogy's issues and variables, whether it's moving to another galaxy, canonizing an ending, or jumping ahead far in the future.

I don't know about that, I think if they canonized an ending they would be seen as addressing the ending and showing us that. Some will complain for sure, but I would imagine it would be much smaller and for other reasons.

 

And damn dream, 14k posts. I lurk here a lot so i feel like i know lots of the people better than they know me.

[Nethershadow]

The question is, does the majority of the fanbase want to go back and spend time "fixing" something instead of moving forward.

 

For what I have seen I would say most definitely the average fan wanted Bioware to go back and 'fix' or change the ending completely to something more happy dappy.

 

Based on the outrage at the time the ending was revealed and all the begging I saw for Bioware to change it, they even made announcements that they weren't going to change it since it was being 'asked' so much.

 

I on the other hand was fine with how they ended it, Sheperd going through the steps of indoctrination and the ending that I consider the most logical choice for a canon ending would be destroyed, where it allows Sheperd a strong exit as galactic savior, his LI survives and I just add the head space that his LI would be pregnant to pass on his legacy to.

[Nethershadow]

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Oh, what a ton of manure.

 

I agree that there was significant outrage... no question about that.

 

You other nonsense is just that... nonsene. The game isn't even in the starting gate and you condemn the game and Bio.

Even though I don't agree with it, I am pretty sure there is lots of fans out there that actually believe in this, and they will not be buying the game solely based on the negative taste they have in their mouth from the trilogy's ending. I've seen this before and no matter how good the game is or how much I try to convince them to come play they won't solely because of this.

 

I am confident the game will be great, it just would have been much better to me if they kept it in the MW.

[Il Divo]

For what I have seen I would say most definitely the average fan wanted Bioware to go back and 'fix' or change the ending completely to something more happy dappy.

 

Based on the outrage at the time the ending was revealed and all the begging I saw for Bioware to change it, they even made announcements that they weren't going to change it since it was being 'asked' so much.

 

I on the other hand was fine with how they ended it, Sheperd going through the steps of indoctrination and the ending that I consider the most logical choice for a canon ending would be destroyed, where it allows Sheperd a strong exit as galactic savior, his LI survives and I just add the head space that his LI would be pregnant to pass on his legacy to.

 

Not that this isn't a possibility, but if that is what's going on, these forums aren't really doing a great job of representing that fan base, having been here since ME2's release. Sure, there's been arguments, but the traffic flow has been pretty par normal for a new game announcement.

 

Compare that to (for example) the forum base in the immediate aftermath of ME3. I can't say I've ever seen a Bioware forum explode to that degree. For the first two months, you couldn't click the refresh button without a thread on the first page dropping to the second or third, as I recall, to say nothing of the large scale movement of Retake. 

 

Edit: To be clear, the point is that it's dangerous for us to extrapolate all ending haters (myself included) as those who want Bioware to address the endings again, especially since a canonized sequel can't really address all the complaints appropriately. 

[AlanC9]

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You guys are hung up on "solving" something in Shep's universe that is now dead. No matter how well or most badly ME3 ended, it is ended, finished, thrown down the well.
 
There is no "solving" because it can never be "solved" to everyone's satisfaction. You and others belong to the "fix this camp" while others belong to "forget and move on camp".  This impasse alone ought to tell you Bio can never come up witth a universal solution.
 
Flogging a dead horse won't bring it back to life......Bio stated the new game is in Andromeda.  So, you will either buy the game or not.  Your choice.

Hey, don't lump me in with those guys. My point there was only that his proposed fix wouldn't do anything useful -- his idea was to pile some intellectual dishonesty on top of a blatant retcon, which makes the retcon worse, not better. I didn't take a stance on a straight-up retcon because I thought that was an obvious nonstarter.

[Nethershadow]

We shouldn't be branding everyone into a them or us camp, as it's not accurate and it does nothing for discussion.

 

I for example don't fit in either camp, as I don't want BW to change anything about the ending, I just want them to continue the game in the same MW galaxy.

And yes, I know that this debate will have zero effect on making any changes, and that's not why I am here having this good conversation with you folk about it. I suspect like many here, they just want to talk about what and why the transition bothers them, maybe even seeking validation with others which could bring the closure they want.

 

Damn, reading what i just wrote and I sound like some video game therapist who just wants everyone to share their feelings and can't we all just get along... now I have to go do something violent to balance out, like go give the guy in the next office a shot. brb

[Redbelle]

Aaaah, I can't speak for the community but I'm not against the Mass Effect.... but because of 'THAT' ending, Im going to qualify the end of this sentence with the word..... yet.

 

Bioware's third installment suffered from many problems. To many to go into detail with as, to the series credit, ME3 didn't stand up as a logical progression of evolving the ability and settings of the player and environment to meet the coming threat.

 

An example of what I mean is Shepard's heavy weapon tha appeared in ME2. In ME1 Shepard was a standard N7 soldier fighting a threat. He fought desperate fights but came through them. Then in ME2 the threat got bigger. His resource's streamlined narratively from being an alliance funded soldier to a Cerberus funded soldier. And when that happened, he got a grenade launcher. This is an example of evolution. As the threat changes, the player character is given more tools to combat the threat.....

 

Then in ME3 Shepard lost all he'd gained. The threat got bigger and Shepard's ability to meet the threat got smaller. And by that, I mean the player controlling the PC was given fewer ways to interact with the game. Evolution gave way to streamlining in a way that the game's surviving mechanics could not support the narrative of the final battle. In ME1 and 2, when I played the hacking minigames, I felt liked I'd earned a success when I succeeded in finishing them but in ME3 I felt like the game was just shoving stuff in my direction to keep up a linear power progression. Now, yes. All games are linear and on the rails in some way shape or form in that you are bound to what has been coded into the game to interact with..... But in ME3, the illusion that hid the rails and linear format disappeared until all that was left was a thin on the ground shooter.

 

MEA therefore..... well I'm worried but hopeful. But ultimately wary. Mass Effect's strength's is not just story and mechanics. It's also in hiding those mechanics behind interactive options and challenges that don't feel video gamey despite being, at heart, a video game. In the games as art debate, I'm starting to come down on the side of art, not in that games are art, but that the developer's themselves have an artistry to game development that can turn an okay game into a great game.

 

ME1 and 2 held onto the illusion of free reign of the player because those behind the developement tweaked aspects of that game. Developed and crafted parts that in financial terms probably made no sense but held aloft the beating heart of what Mass Effect as a cinematic and action interactive was about.....

 

ME3 however...... Well, Tali's face reveal...... Nuff said.

 

So for me, MEA will sink, swim or tread water depending on the artistry of the developers who are prepared to develop according to a vision. An ideal. Something that makes them point at a part of the game and say, 'this isn't hitting me the way I want it too' and are prepared to question why rather than ticking the box marked done and filing it away.

[Il Divo]

We shouldn't be branding everyone into a them or us camp, as it's not accurate and it does nothing for discussion.

 

I for example don't fit in either camp, as I don't want BW to change anything about the ending, I just want them to continue the game in the same MW galaxy.

And yes, I know that this debate will have zero effect on making any changes, and that's not why I am here having this good conversation with you folk about it. I suspect like many here, they just want to talk about what and why the transition bothers them, maybe even seeking validation with others which could bring the closure they want.

 

Damn, reading what i just wrote and I sound like some video game therapist who just wants everyone to share their feelings and can't we all just get along... now I have to go do something violent to balance out, like go give the guy in the next office a shot. brb

 

Fair enough. But your post was in response to someone asking whether people wanted Bioware to go back and fix the ending using ME4. Keep in mind, Retake was focused on fixing the ME3 ending within the context of ME3, aka retconning the original endings (to some extent) into something different.

 

Here we're talking about something completely different. Here we have to repurpose ME4 to both tell its own independent story while also being used to account for the outrage which ME3 generated and it's not clear how it can do that to anyone's satisfaction. 

[Sartoz]

Alan is not part of the "fix this camp", to be clear. 

 

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Ooops, sorry about that.

[Sartoz]

I don't know about that, I think if they canonized an ending they would be seen as addressing the ending and showing us that. Some will complain for sure, but I would imagine it would be much smaller and for other reasons.

 

And damn dream, 14k posts. I lurk here a lot so i feel like i know lots of the people better than they know me.

 

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If you were in the DAI threads you'd see many people angry at Bio's canonizing certain events, for the sake of  avoiding multiple user choices and shoe horn in a given path. Also, Bio's decision to do away with the lore that mages can't have healing spells in combat was a sore point for many... me included.

 

Any canonizing here will have the same fan reactions. Best Bio moves to Andromeda and starts over.

[Nethershadow]

Fair enough. But your post was in response to someone asking whether people wanted Bioware to go back and fix the ending using ME4. Keep in mind, Retake was focused on fixing the ME3 ending within the context of ME3, aka retconning the original endings (to some extent) into something different.

 

Here we're talking about something completely different. Here we have to repurpose ME4 to both tell its own independent story while also being used to account for the outrage which ME3 generated and it's not clear how it can do that to anyone's satisfaction. 

Well actually my posts should be based off replying to the OP, which is why are people upset with where ME4 is going and it all pretty much stems from the negative views that the ending of the trilogy and how they are choosing to move forward from that.

 

Lots here I noticed debate this issue (including OP) as a "its done and finished, accept it and move on" type approach. Regardless if it is done and gone, doesn't mean it can't leave a bad memory, and if customers feel slighted by the developers doesn't mean they need to forget and forgive, hence this thread, because the OP feels there is obviously a strong enough outpouring in this regard.

 

I really really love Mass Effect, as many do, and that's why this debate is on 50 pages. 

[Sartoz]

Hey, don't lump me in with those guys. My point there was only that his proposed fix wouldn't do anything useful -- his idea was to pile some intellectual dishonesty on top of a blatant retcon, which makes the retcon worse, not better. I didn't take a stance on a straight-up retcon because I thought that was an obvious nonstarter.

 

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Sorry AlanC9. Mooocho apologies.

 

I was responding to the "general fix-this-camp" crowd.  You happened to pass by while I took aim. LOL.

 

"... wouldn't do anything useful.."

Is exactly what we've been preaching.  The mistake Bio made was to create an apocalyptic ending of galactic propotions with multiple endings. Best the writers and art directors move elsewhere and can start telling us a new story in the Mass Effect IP and avoid a grandiose "super" enemy.

[Nethershadow]

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If you were in the DAI threads you'd see many people angry at Bio's canonizing certain events, for the sake of  avoiding multiple user choices and shoe horn in a given path. Also, Bio's decision to do away with the lore that mages can't have healing spells in combat was a sore point for many... me included.

 

Any canonizing here will have the same fan reactions. Best Bio moves to Andromeda and starts over.

As mentioned, you can't please everyone, but I think the canonized choices would have been the much better choice over just moving elsewhere, and I think the backlash would have been less, but more importantly to me it would feel like the 'right' choice, just how sticking to their guns about the ending regardless of the backlash was the 'right' choice.

 

As for DAI, I love the first two, but so far I haven't really been able to get into the 3rd installment. I don't know what it is, but it just doesn't capture me like the first two did.