153 réponses à ce sujet

[LinksOcarina]

Totally normal.  Blank slate protagonist with nothing special about him at all.

 

I doubt it will be a full blank slate, but I would bet the character doesn't have too much special about them, at first at least.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I doubt it will be a full blank slate, but I would bet the character doesn't have too much special about them, at first at least.

Good enough for me.

[dragonflight288]

Well, if we go back to childhood days, we must remember Barney the dinosaur.

 

Everyone is special, so the protagonist is as well.

 

If we go to Animal Farm, we know that all are equal, but some people are more equal than others.

 

I'm sure the protagonist will have a special kind of equal just for them in the story we will experience. 

[BabyPuncher]

It really depends on what you consider 'special.'

 

I generally am not overwhelmingly fond of the protagonist having some sort of quality literally unique to them, such as the anchor in Inquisition.

 

But in terms of qualities such as courage, intelligence, charisma, fitness, skill and so forth, he should be incredibly special. Or grow to be, anyway.

[Ahriman]

Extensive genetic, biotic and cybernetic modifications never harm.

[The Heretic of Time]

It really depends on what you consider 'special.'

 

I generally am not overwhelmingly fond of the protagonist having some sort of quality literally unique to them, such as the anchor in Inquisition.

 

But in terms of qualities such as courage, intelligence, charisma, fitness, skill and so forth, he should be incredibly special. Or grow to be, anyway.

 

I disagree.

 

Personally I'm more fond of protagonists who end up in a special situation rather than being inherently special themselves. Basically protagonists who become protagonists by accident simply for being at the right place at the right time (or the wrong place at the wrong time, depending on how you want to look at it).

 

And I'm not talking about accidents like Shepard getting the beacon vision or the Inquisitor getting the anchor, but accidents like Tali in ME1 who accidently found out about Saren's plot by salvaging the data banks of the geth. 

 

As much as I dislike Tali, she would have been a great protagonist in the sense that she wasn't inherently special nor did she get special powers, but she got in a special situation by accidentally stumbling upon Saren's plot which made her unique and vital to solving the plot of ME1. That is what I want for our protagonist in ME:A.

[Vazgen]

Not special at all. Just a regular guy/gal caught up in the events he/she never wanted to take part in. 

[dragonflight288]

I disagree.

 

Personally I'm more fond of protagonists who end up in a special situation rather than being inherently special themselves. Basically protagonists who become protagonists by accident simply for being at the right place at the right time (or the wrong place at the wrong time, depending on how you want to look at it).

 

And I'm not talking about accidents like Shepard getting the beacon vision or the Inquisitor getting the anchor, but accidents like Tali in ME1 who accidently found out about Saren's plot by salvaging the data banks of the geth. 

 

As much as I dislike Tali, she would have been a great protagonist in the sense that she wasn't inherently special nor did she get special powers, but she got in a special situation by accidentally stumbling upon Saren's plot which made her unique and vital to solving the plot of ME1. That is what I want for our protagonist in ME:A.

 

And she was pushed to excel in all activities by her Admiral Father who never really showed his love to her, so she is, in fact, highly skilled.

 

Those skills, special circumstances and her travelling around with Shepard have turned her into the greatest Geth expert in the galaxy, which is why even if she gets exiled from the fleet, she's brought back in by the Admiralty board as their dirty secret to advise them.

 

She pretty much is an excellent protagonist of her own story.

 

And I disagree with you on one thing. I love Tali. 

[dragonflight288]

Well, I really like the Bounty Hunter in The Old Republic.

 

His story is pretty much he's forced into greatness because other people simply won't leave him/her alone backed up with pure skill.

 

The Bounty Hunter simply enters a hunting competition and someone who lost the last Hunt is fixing the game and the Bounty Hunter gets a lot of recognition for beating Taro Blood as he, while not outright breaking any rules, makes it much harder for all the competition to advance.

 

And after the Hunt is over, a Jedi Master gets a huge chip on his shoulder over the Bounty Hunter's last bounty in the hunt, another Jedi, and really lays into the BH, even accusing him of crimes never accused, thus making them the most wanted person in the galaxy, playing politics and essentially doesn't care if he has to lie, cheat or slander the bounty hunter so long as the bounty hunter gets killed or captured, and seems to outright reject the compassion and merciful jedi stereotype. 

 

I think that made a great protagonist. The Bounty Hunter was simply a highly skilled mercenary and their story is largely reacting to the aggressive actions of others who can't stand his/her success.

[BabyPuncher]

I disagree.

 

Personally I'm more fond of protagonists who end up in a special situation rather than being inherently special themselves. Basically protagonists who become protagonists by accident simply for being at the right place at the right time (or the wrong place at the wrong time, depending on how you want to look at it).

 

And I'm not talking about accidents like Shepard getting the beacon vision or the Inquisitor getting the anchor, but accidents like Tali in ME1 who accidently found out about Saren's plot by salvaging the data banks of the geth. 

 

As much as I dislike Tali, she would have been a great protagonist in the sense that she wasn't inherently special nor did she get special powers, but she got in a special situation by accidentally stumbling upon Saren's plot which made her unique and vital to solving the plot of ME1. That is what I want for our protagonist in ME:A.

 

All that accomplishes is introducing the protagonist to the adventure. That's not enough. They still have to actually succeed. Actually survive combat. Actually triumph over all the trials they encounter. That requires qualities. They won't survive and certainly won't succeed without being an incredibly special person, or at least becoming one.
 

[PhroXenGold]

Well, I really like the Bounty Hunter in The Old Republic.

 

His story is pretty much he's forced into greatness because other people simply won't leave him/her alone backed up with pure skill.

 

The Bounty Hunter simply enters a hunting competition and someone who lost the last Hunt is fixing the game and the Bounty Hunter gets a lot of recognition for beating Taro Blood as he, while not outright breaking any rules, makes it much harder for all the competition to advance.

 

And after the Hunt is over, a Jedi Master gets a huge chip on his shoulder over the Bounty Hunter's last bounty in the hunt, another Jedi, and really lays into the BH, even accusing him of crimes never accused, thus making them the most wanted person in the galaxy, playing politics and essentially doesn't care if he has to lie, cheat or slander the bounty hunter so long as the bounty hunter gets killed or captured, and seems to outright reject the compassion and merciful jedi stereotype. 

 

I think that made a great protagonist. The Bounty Hunter was simply a highly skilled mercenary and their story is largely reacting to the aggressive actions of others who can't stand his/her success.

 

Heh, back when I played TOR I loved the BHs class story. Probably my favourite of those I played. Unfortunately, the effect was somewhat ruined by the generic Imperial stories that I was doing along side it. Basically, in between jobs as a bounty hunter, I was singlehandedly conquering worlds for an Empire I really couldn't give two shits about....

[The Heretic of Time]

And she was pushed to excel in all activities by her Admiral Father who never really showed his love to her, so she is, in fact, highly skilled.

 

Those skills, special circumstances and her travelling around with Shepard have turned her into the greatest Geth expert in the galaxy, which is why even if she gets exiled from the fleet, she's brought back in by the Admiralty board as their dirty secret to advise them.

 

She pretty much is an excellent protagonist of her own story.

 

And I disagree with you on one thing. I love Tali. 

 

Everything you just summed up is everything that I DON'T like about Tali and it completely misses my point.

 

Tali, during the events of ME1, was no one special. She was just some random quarian on a pilgrimage who accidentally stumbled upon Saren's plot and accidently became vital in solving the plot of ME1. That's all Tali needed to be an important character and that's all I want from a protagonist. She was not special, her skills weren't extraordinary, she was just a very ordinary quarian who was at the right place at the right time, making her vital to solving the plot of ME1. That's what I liked about her.

 

But then she turned out to be another special snowflake just like almost everyone else on Shepard's crew and that's when I started to dislike her. The only redeeming factor for Tali was the fact that she could get exciled in ME2 which is what happened in my playthrough and I liked that, because it took away some of her specialness, but then ME3 completely jumps the shark by making Tali a pseudo-admiral because of her "super special geth skills" despite the fact that they already had a geth expert on the team: admiral Xen.

 

Seriously, I hate special snowflakes with a passion and Tali is no exception, I hate her too (in ME3 especially), because of the things you just mentioned about her.

[dragonflight288]

Heh, back when I played TOR I loved the BHs class story. Probably my favourite of those I played. Unfortunately, the effect was somewhat ruined by the generic Imperial stories that I was doing along side it. Basically, in between jobs as a bounty hunter, I was singlehandedly conquering worlds for an Empire I really couldn't give two shits about....

 

Which is why my Bounty Hunter always said "Let's talk about the part where I get paid."

[Ahriman]

Personally I'm more fond of protagonists who end up in a special situation rather than being inherently special themselves. Basically protagonists who become protagonists by accident simply for being at the right place at the right time (or the wrong place at the wrong time, depending on how you want to look at it).

Basically Stephen King's recipe of story "an ordinary man engulfed in the most extraordinary of circumstances".

Still ME was more about extraordinary man in extraordinary circumstances. I don't favour any of them, LotR for example used both and it played out well. Yet I will always associate ME with space opera, thus I expect a lot of surprises behind PC's back.

[dragonflight288]

Everything you just summed up is everything that I DON'T like about Tali and it completely misses my point.

 

Tali, during the events of ME1, was no one special. She was just some random quarian on a pilgrimage who accidentally stumbled upon Saren's plot and accidently became vital in solving the plot of ME1. That's all Tali needed to be an important character and that's all I want from a protagonist. She was not special, her skills weren't extraordinary, she was just a very ordinary quarian who was at the right place at the right time, making her vital to solving the plot of ME1. That's what I liked about her.

 

But then she turned out to be another special snowflake just like almost everyone else on Shepard's crew and that's when I started to dislike her. The only redeeming factor for Tali was the fact that she could get exciled in ME2 which is what happened in my playthrough and I liked that, because it took away some of her specialness, but then ME3 completely jumps the shark by making Tali a pseudo-admiral because of her "super special geth skills" despite the fact that they already had a geth expert on the team: admiral Xen.

 

Seriously, I hate special snowflakes with a passion and I Tali is no exception, I hate her too (in ME3 especially), because of the things you just mentioned about her.

 

But a protagonist in an action-adventure story needs to have the skills to survive the action itself. 

 

If Tali really was just some random Quarian, she would likely be one of the non-combatants under Admiral Korris. 

 

If anyone matches your definition of barely involved save by accident, it would be Liara in ME 1. She was targeted because, a.) she was Benezia's daughter, and b.) it was her passion to study protheans. 

 

She simply got a doctorate in studying Prothean ruins and became an archeologist and was a direct relative of Benezia. Other than that, she has no special skills the average asari also do not have. Every asari has biotics, and every asari can meld minds with others. She simply had knowledge on the protheans from 50 years of study. 

 

It's not until ME2 she got the special snowflake status by becoming the Shadow Broker. 

[The Heretic of Time]

All that accomplishes is introducing the protagonist to the adventure. That's not enough. They still have to actually succeed. Actually survive combat. Actually triumph over all the trials they encounter. That requires qualities. They won't survive and certainly won't succeed without being an incredibly special person, or at least becoming one.
 

 

That's totally enough.

 

It sets up the Hero's Journey and after that it's all about the protagonist growing as a person and learning to become skilled enough to survive and triumph, basically learning to become special instead of being special right off the bat. It allows for some very interesting character growth on both a physical level and a mental level.

 

Having a protagonist who's nothing special and doesn't know how to deal with the situation he got himself into but then having to learn all these things is much more interesting than having a protagonist who already kicks butt right from the start.

 

Edit: and even then, the protagonist might never become really special. The best protagonists are those who become special enough to fulfill their role in the plot, but nothing beyond that. One example of such a protagonist is Rincewind from Diskworld. I love that guy.

[The Heretic of Time]

But a protagonist in an action-adventure story needs to have the skills to survive the action itself. 

 

If Tali really was just some random Quarian, she would likely be one of the non-combatants under Admiral Korris. 

 

If anyone matches your definition of barely involved save by accident, it would be Liara in ME 1. She was targeted because, a.) she was Benezia's daughter, and b.) it was her passion to study protheans. 

 

She simply got a doctorate in studying Prothean ruins and became an archeologist and was a direct relative of Benezia. Other than that, she has no special skills the average asari also do not have. Every asari has biotics, and every asari can meld minds with others. She simply had knowledge on the protheans from 50 years of study. 

 

It's not until ME2 she got the special snowflake status by becoming the Shadow Broker. 

 

As I said in another post: Having a protagonist who's nothing special and doesn't know how to deal with the situation he got himself into but then having to learn all these things is much more interesting than having a protagonist who already kicks butt right from the start.

 

Tali was, in my eyes, nothing special in ME1. Just because she could handle herself in combat doesn't make her special. All quarians need to learn to handle themselves during their pilgrimage. Liara could also handle herself in combat despite her being an archaeologist. I think everyone in the ME universe who goes out in space has to know how to handle a gun in order to survive.

 

And yeah, Liara becoming the Shadow Broker is another example of a potentially great character being completely ruined. But at least Liara had to work for her special-status (with a little help from Shepard) and didn't just get it handed to her on a silver platter like most other characters in BioWare games.

[dragonflight288]

That's totally enough.

 

It sets up the Hero's Journey and after that it's all about the protagonist growing as a person and learning to become skilled enough to survive and triumph, basically learning to become special instead of being special right off the bat. It allows for some very interesting character growth on both a physical level and a mental level.

 

Having a protagonist who's nothing special and doesn't know how to deal with the situation he got himself into but then having to learn all these things is much more interesting than having a protagonist who already kicks butt right from the start.

 

Edit: and even then, the protagonist might never become really special. The best protagonists are those who become special enough to fulfill their role in the plot, but nothing beyond that. One example of such a protagonist is Rincewind from Diskworld. I love that guy.

 

Like farm-boy Luke Skywalker becoming a Jedi Master after getting involved in an intergalactic war because his uncle bought the droids with the plans for the battle station. 

 

Despite it being bragged that he's an ace pilot of course.

 

That what you mean?

[dragonflight288]

As I said in another post: Having a protagonist who's nothing special and doesn't know how to deal with the situation he got himself into but then having to learn all these things is much more interesting than having a protagonist who already kicks butt right from the start.

 

Tali was, in my eyes, nothing special in ME1. Just because she could handle herself in combat doesn't make her special. All quarians need to learn to handle themselves during their pilgrimage. Liara could also handle herself in combat despite her being an archaeologist. I think everyone in the ME universe who goes out in space has to know how to handle a gun in order to survive.

 

And yeah, Liara becoming the Shadow Broker is another example of a potentially great character being completely ruined. But at least Liara had to work for her special-status (with a little help from Shepard) and didn't just get it handed to her on a silver platter like most other characters in BioWare games.

 

Fair point, and that works great in movies and literature, but video games has a different audience for the most part.

 

Most people play action-adventure games because they want to be that skilled hero, and not many of them want to go through the character arch of growing and learning skills from scratch. 

 

Well, the Elder Scrolls games actually handle that pretty well, but often at the expense of quality characters and story, but Bethesda is really good at open-world sandbox games, which isn't the hero's journey type story. 

 

EDIT: For example, people don't play Batman: Arkham Asylum or City because they want to learn how to be Batman and help him gain the skills that make him the Batman. They play the games because the combat is done really well and they actually feel like the bone-shattering martial artist that Batman is. It's not about helping or watching Batman learn to be Batman, it's about being the Batman as he kicks major criminal butt. 

Modifié par dragonflight288, 09 juillet 2015 - 09:42 .

[darkiddd]

Hopefully not special at all. We had our Bhaalspawns and Shepard's and Inquisitors for all the demigod/special snowflake goodness. This time I'd like to see a protagonist that doesn't have pull with everyone and doesn't have the entire galaxy falling at their feet in worship. In fact I'd like to see the story play out as through it could've been almost anybody but so happened to be your PC thanks to cosmic circumstances.

 

You are describing the hero's journey. It almost always starts because the circumstances call him to adventure. In a way you are saying you don't want him to be special but then you kinda want him to be special. If he wasn't special in what he does then what is the point of telling his story? When you try to escape from the rule of cool you not only don't escape it but you end up with a mediocre and inferior rule of cool.

 

This is the problem Bioware faced in Dragon Age 2, they came from making origins with an epic story and an enemy that threatened the world with you saving the world. They then tried to make a more personal story with an everyday man/woman who was just trying to make a living in a city that was the worst. DA2 failed for a lot of reasons but one of them was because the story wasn't very compelling, even when they tried to escape from the hero's journey they ended up with a less epic hero's journey, an everyday man or woman who became a hero but kinda didn't because he/she didn't accomplish anything in the end.

 

A good story in adventure and fantasy with a focus on a main character always has the hero's journey, the only thing that can be changed is its progression and how quickly he/she fulfills it. For example in ME1 you already began with a reputation and saved the galaxy at the end of the first game completing the hero's journey so the next two games repeated that same journey (it doesn't mean the next two games were bad, except the ending of the third). While in the MEA the trilogy could take it more easily and fulfill the hero's journey over the whole trilogy. 

 

What I fear is that Bioware will make a Hawke here again because they come from the ME trilogy and Shepard's shadow is very large. I don't mind if we start with a competent yet untested soldier that is inferior to what Shepard was at the start of ME1 but that becomes stronger in battle, alliances, trust and reputation as the adventure advances. If I were Bioware I would play it smart and try to make a coherent story that grows in epicness over the whole trilogy following the character growth with greater accomplishments that are not redundant or repeated as the games continue.

 

Comparisons are inevitable and there is no way the main character of Andromeda will get a better approval rating at first from the fandom when the game comes out. Not only because Shepard is almost a messianic figure but because he/she has had three games and the Andromeda main character will have only one game at first. If you know you are not going to defeat Shepard in terms of epicness at first then you need to play by your strenghts, with a long term thinking for the whole new trilogy and make sure the hero's journey this time is more believable and organic yet at the same time not mediocre and interesting enough to make people wait for the second game.

[dragonflight288]

snip

 

Ubisoft faced the same thing when they went from Assassin's Creed to Assassin's Creed 2 (with its own trilogy) and everyone I knew was complaining that Altair could not be replaced as an assassin, he was too epic.

 

But we followed Ezio Auditore' from snot-nosed and rambunctious teenager with a revenge obsession to the wise, almost Yoda-ish mentor for the assassins by Revelations, and he became one of the most iconic figures of the entire franchise, even more beloved than Altair, and later, Connor. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I loved the Dragon Age 2 story.

 

Where DA2 failed was the fact that we went into the exact same caves and places all the time. The exact same spot on the coast. The exact same sewers. The exact same warehouses. We'd just cleared them out. Kirkwall wasn't big enough. It suffered from being made with a very outdated engine.

 

But i loved the story. Even though you didn't really accomplish anything in the end like save the city. You weren't some big hero.

 

Origins suffered from way too much time in the deep roads which was the most boring part of the entire game. I couldn't wait to get out of there. I hated the deep roads with a passion.

 

But nothing beats Morrowind for walking into Vivec wearing a full suit of Indoril armor - you know that one you found?

[The Heretic of Time]

Fair point, and that works great in movies and literature, but video games has a different audience for the most part.

 

Most people play action-adventure games because they want to be that skilled hero, and not many of them want to go through the character arch of growing and learning skills from scratch. 

 

Well, the Elder Scrolls games actually handle that pretty well, but often at the expense of quality characters and story, but Bethesda is really good at open-world sandbox games, which isn't the hero's journey type story. 

 

EDIT: For example, people don't play Batman: Arkham Asylum or City because they want to learn how to be Batman and help him gain the skills that make him the Batman. They play the games because the combat is done really well and they actually feel like the bone-shattering martial artist that Batman is. It's not about helping or watching Batman learn to be Batman, it's about being the Batman as he kicks major criminal butt. 

 

I don't think what you say is true. I'd love to see some actual research and results that can back up the claim that videogames have a different audience than movies or books, or that gamers want their character's skills and specialness handed to them from the start. I don't think that's true. I think the opposite is true actually.

 

Character growth and progression is vital to videogames, especially RPGs. Guild Wars 2 tried to get away from vertical character growth. It still has leveling, but it's fairly quick and easy to reach max level) and instead aimed for something that they call horizontal character growth (instead of growing and becoming better, you "grow" your character by unlocking new fancier armor skins and new fancy weapons that aren't technically better than the other weapons. This sounds cool and unique on paper and I'm sure some people like it, but I've seen a lottttttttttttttttttt of people complaining that GW2 lacks depth and character growth. I've seen many threads on the GW2 forums from people asking for new challenging group content and new ways to grow their character aside from unlocking new cosmetics and skins.

 

You're also wrong about Bethesda's games not having the Hero's Journey story template for their stories. In fact, ALL OF THEIR GAMES are based on the Hero's Journey story template. I could grab a Hero's Journey chart if you want and throw every Elder Scrolls story on top of it and show you how every single Elder Scrolls main story fits perfectly within the Hero's Journey template.

That's totally besides the point though. I don't like the story of many Bethesda games for the same reason I don't like the story of many BioWare games; because they all make the protagonist a special snowflake right from the start.

[The Heretic of Time]

Like farm-boy Luke Skywalker becoming a Jedi Master after getting involved in an intergalactic war because his uncle bought the droids with the plans for the battle station. 

 

Despite it being bragged that he's an ace pilot of course.

 

That what you mean?

 

Yeah Luke's journey is a good example of a story that I like and Luke is a good protagonist in my opinion. He wasn't inherently special from the start, despite being a good pilot. Sure, he was the son of Darth Vader, but that ultimately didn't mean much and it didn't make Luke more special to the plot or the people around him, so I'm okay with him being the son of Vader. In fact I quite like that little plot twist the first time I saw the old Star Wars trilogy.

[Larry-3]

It would depend on the context.

If you mean reputation, I do not want to be famous; I want to be infamous.

If you mean special abilities, I usually ignore soldiers, warriors, grunts, and weapon based classes; I am more of a stealth/tech kind of person. So, special stealth abilities would be good to and for me.