26 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Presley:

Whatever you do, don't get too close to those Red Templars with giant lumps on their backs. They can "spit" lyrium! You can actually see it growing before they fling it at you from their palms. One hit Henley in the face. (He'd have a mass of scars if I hadn't been there to heal the wounds as we plucked the stuff out.) We started to beat it down with some spells, and the air went sour. I felt sick, like you do when you're around too much raw lyrium. Lyra almost passed out. I grabbed her and ran. With luck, the thing found better prey than us.

I never loved the Templars, but seeing them mutilated with lyrium doesn't give me any cheer. I don't understand why they'd inflict this on themselves.

 

 

 

 

 

This letter never reached its intended recipient:

My dearest Fennela,

How are you? How is your Aunt Kaitlen? My dear girl would never give trouble, I hope? How are your studies? Perhaps you could read some of this letter to her, to show her how much you're learning.

I am sorry to have been away for so long. I have a duty. Remember when mother was very sick, and she asked you to fetch her water, and you did it because you loved her? It's like that. Sometimes we have to do difficult things, because they help other people that we love. The country is ill, and I have to try to make her better. Don't worry—I am not alone here, and now we have special medicine that will make us stronger so we can fight better.

It won't be long 'til all the mages are all gone and we're safe again. I will be home soon.

All my love and prayers,
Father

 

 

 

 

 

We all know the argument. The living conditions of the Circle plus the fear of being caught by Templars lead to many mages turning to demons both to be free and as a result of their mental state. Ergo, they are victims of the Templars.

 

Still, if that is true, does the same not apply to the Red Templars?
Their fear of what mages can do plus the suffering caused by the war lead to them becoming this.

 

In my opinion, their actions are neither acceptable nor excusable. However, if the mages who give themselves to demons are the victims and deserving of pity, then the came can be said of the Red Templars. That mage doesn't understand why they'd inflict this on themselves. Well, it's because they are trying to protect people from them. The ones who are in it only for getting kicks out of torturing mages would not do this to themselves, only the really desperate and commited ones.

 

Furthermore, a great number of them had no idea what they were taking.

[raging_monkey]

Jb for the first time we have similar view point
Monkey approves

[andy6915]

How about both. Of course they're afraid of each other, and 2 codexes in the fade segment make that quite clear. Both feared and hated each other, both pushed each other into bad directions. It's not pro mage or pro templar or anti mage or anti templar, that's fact.

 

http://dragonage.wik..._from_a_Journal

 

They think they own us, think they decide whether we live or die. They sit there smug in their armor, ready to cut off our heads for the slightest transgression, as though we don't strive every day to stay sane, to keep the demons away. They can't control us any longer. I won't go back to the Circle, not ever. I thought about it last night, being back in the tower, their eyes on me, and all of it came back, all the years, head down, don't clench your fingers, be a good mage, be a quiet mage, and I realized I don't want to make peace with the templars. I want them to burn, want it so badly that the bed caught fire and wouldn't go out until Evanne iced it all over.

It's still there inside me. I want them to feel the fear they made me feel. I want them to know what it's like. We're leaving for the Conclave in a few hours. If those bastards so much as blink the wrong way, I'll let them see what an apostate looks like.

- From the journal of an unknown mage

 

 

I went to Tevinter when I was a child. I remember dragon statues everywhere, big ones. I shivered as I walked between them, afraid they were going to bite me or breathe fire. My parents hushed me and told me the magisters liked the dragons as a sign of their power.

Dragons are beasts, mindless, terrible. The Archdemon that comes with each Blight is an offense to the Maker. We know all these things, but the magisters don't care.

And it is the same with the mages. So much danger, so much power in hands not ready for it, and the mages only wish to celebrate themselves. The magisters are what the mages of Ferelden and Orlais want to be: our rulers, holding us in terror so that we wonder if they will bite as we walk by them.

I joined the templars to keep such mages under control. I have killed many since the rebellion we all saw coming. Now the Divine wishes us to meet them at the Conclave and give them a chance to make peace.

I will go. I will smile. But if the dragon statue looks ready to bite, I will strike first. I am not a child, and I will not be afraid.

- From the journal of an unnamed templar

[MisterJB]

True, there is a number of people amidst both Templars and mages who do not seek to abuse the other side. Mostly their fears were feeding each other until they were ready to kill the other.

Of course, one shouldn't forget the fact a Rage Demon appears when reading the mage's letter above.

[andy6915]

one shouldn't forget the fact a Rage Demon appears when reading the mage's letter above.

 

...No there isn't. She lit the bed on fire because her anger made her own magic flare up. Emotion can cause magic to flare up, and anger can cause fire without any rage demon. Wynne discovered being a mage when she lit a boys hair on fire out of anger, remember? Or was Wynne a rage abomination after that? Considering she later got possessed by a faith spirit and you can't be double possessed, the answer is no. So we know for a fact that anger can cause fire to happen where it shouldn't, without any demonic involvement.

[MisterJB]

...No there isn't. She lit the bed on fire because her anger made her own magic flare up. Emotion can cause magic to flare up, and anger can cause fire without any rage demon. Wynne discovered being a mage when she lit a boys hair on fire out of anger, remember? Or was Wynne a rage abomination after that? Considering she later got possessed by a faith spirit and you can't be double possessed, the answer is no. So we know for a fact that anger can cause fire to happen where it shouldn't, without any demonic involvement.

 

You should check the Fade mission again.

When you discover that mage's letter/thoughts in the Fade, a Rage Demon attacks you.
Which was a subtle way of diferentiating between the danger of a mage and that of a Templar. Nothing happens when you find the Templar's letter/thougths.

[andy6915]

You should check the Fade mission again.
When you discover that mage's letter/thoughts in the Fade, a Rage Demon attacks you.
Which was a subtle way of diferentiating between the danger of a mage and that of a Templar. Nothing happens when you find the Templar's letter/thougths.

A rage demon was drawn to her angry memories, post death. The girl was dead and her spirit in the afterlife, the rage demon was not her. And it was drawn to her memories because, yes, she was a mage. But it had nothing to do with the fire starting in her bed.

Edit: If you ever see really odd typos, blame swype.

[MisterJB]

A rage demon was drawn to her angry memories, post death. The girl was dead and her spirit in the afterlife, the rage demon was not her. And it was drawn to her memories because, yes, she was a mage. But it had nothing to do with the fire starting in her bed.

Edit: If you ever see really odd typos, blame swype.

 

I wasn't claiming it had anything to do with her setting fire to her bed.

Only pointing out the fact that yes, unlike the Templar, the mage attracted a demon.
 

[andy6915]

I wasn't claiming it had anything to do with her setting fire to her bed.
Only pointing out the fact that yes, unlike the Templar, the mage attracted a demon.

After her death. How does it matter if a rage demon goes to a dead persons memories in the fade?

[The Baconer]

We all know the argument. The living conditions of the Circle plus the fear of being caught by Templars lead to many mages turning to demons both to be free and as a result of their mental state. Ergo, they are victims of the Templars.

 

Still, if that is true, does the same not apply to the Red Templars?

 

No.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I don't think so. When some mages were indeed pushed to to become abomnation or blood mage because of templars ,what i find poor excuse to go easy on mages and isn't even as nearly in case as pro-mages think it is or was in da 2. 

 

Problem with red templars was rather more because of corrupted leadership that was enforcing other templars to take it.

[Cobra's_back]

Templars are victims of a corrupt Chantry. Even Leliana told my inquisitor that the Chantry was the only thing protecting mages. Think to the beginning when mages were powerful, and abusing their power on other in the form of huge blood sacrifices. Since the beginning in DAO we saw free blood mages killing to fuel their power. To think it is all the Templar's fought is completely lame.

 

Solas kills a few mages because they were abusing their power and enslaving a spirit. Templars didn't tell them to do that.

 

Wynne and Viv have stated it correctly. They are powerful, and they have to exercise control, or they go back to the old ways. So why do I blame the Chantry?

 

They use lyrium to control Templars, and use Mages for their causes. If they didn't step in, there was clear indication that the people would have kicked out the mages in control or killed them. It was the Chantry that saw an opportunity to gain something. We also learn that making Lyrium addict wasn't the only solution. Seeker don't use lyrium but they can fight mages. I believe that this wasn't entertained because you can't produce too many seekers.

 

Look at the Elves for examples. The Elves allow only two mages in their clan. Any extra get shipped out. The Elf you meet in Hinderland loss her whole Clan because the other Elven mage summoned a demon that killed everyone. Where have we seen this before? In the book the "Masked Empire" an Elf mage summoned the forgotten one. 

 

So Viv and Wynne understand the true danger, and exercise control but not everyone else does. If not for the Chantry, many of the mages may have found themselves in Tevinter as a slave for some other mage. The Templars have a right to fear, and they should seriously tell the Chantry to go stick it. There was no bright future for a lyrium addict.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

Templars are victims of a corrupt Chantry. Even Leliana told my inquisitor that the Chantry was the only thing protecting mages. Think to the beginning when mages were powerful, and abusing their power on other in the form of huge blood sacrifices. Since the beginning in DAO we saw free blood mages killing to fuel their power. To think it is all the Templar's fought is completely lame.

Solas kills a few mages because they were abusing their power and enslaving a spirit. Templars didn't tell them to do that.

Wynne and Viv have stated it correctly. They are powerful, and they have to exercise control, or they go back to the old ways. So why do I blame the Chantry?

They use lyrium to control Templars, and use Mages for their causes. If they didn't step in, there was clear indication that the people would have kicked out the mages in control or killed them. It was the Chantry that saw an opportunity to gain something. We also learn that making Lyrium addict wasn't the only solution. Seeker don't use lyrium but they can fight mages. I believe that this wasn't entertained because you can't produce too many seekers.

Look at the Elves for examples. The Elves allow only two mages in their clan. Any extra get shipped out. The Elf you meet in Hinderland loss her whole Clan because the other Elven mage summoned a demon that killed everyone. Where have we seen this before? In the book the "Masked Empire" an Elf mage summoned the forgotten one.

So Viv and Wynne understand the true danger, and exercise control but not everyone else does. If not for the Chantry, many of the mages may have found themselves in Tevinter as a slave for some other mage. The Templars have a right to fear, and they should seriously tell the Chantry to go stick it. There was no bright future for a lyrium addict.

Don't forget how Samson's short story outright says that the original red Templars sided with Cory because they wanted to destroy the chantry who used them and left them to die when Purim sickness kicked in.

In other words, the chantry is the one to blame

[andy6915]

Don't forget how Samson's short story outright says that the original red Templars sided with Cory because they wanted to destroy the chantry who used them and left them to die when Purim sickness kicked in.

In other words, the chantry is the one to blame

Yes. It is the cause of both of them fearing and hating each other.

[Beren Von Ostwick]

I know it's a crazy thought, but I would put the blame for demonic possession on demons.  I realize it is frequently popular to try to shift the responsibility for actions away from the actual party that commits said actions, but that rarely makes it right.

[thats1evildude]

And maybe we should blame red templars on Corypheus.

[Cobra's_back]

And maybe we should blame red templars on Corypheus.

 

I agree totally, and let's not forget Solas' part in this mess. It is hard to believe an ancient dreamer didn't know giving the orb to Cory wasn't going to create chaos. 

[Dabrikishaw]

Red Templars are the result of the Chantry and Corypheus, not mages.

[Boost32]

So Viv and Wynne understand the true danger, and exercise control but not everyone else does. If not for the Chantry, many of the mages may have found themselves in Tevinter as a slave for some other mage. The Templars have a right to fear, and they should seriously tell the Chantry to go stick it. There was no bright future for a lyrium addict.

And yet if they didn't ingested Lyrium, they couldn't have helped you to close the Breach.
Lyrium is necessary for them to fight against magic.

[The Baconer]

Taking Red Lyrium was never about defending people from magic and corrupt mages, even when the Templars at Therinfal were arguably tricked into consuming it. The unsent note listed in the OP is found in a cave on the Storm Coast, which they were using as a port to traffic the poison throughout Ferelden. That man sure as **** wasn't working to protect anybody. The first group of Templars to even begin using the stuff were those stationed at Kirkwall... the first people you would expect to know better.

 

If you want to blame anybody(beyond Corypheus, obviously), blame the Seekers, then the Chantry after that.

[Daerog]

The use of ingesting lyrium to combat Fade problems (mages, demons) comes before the establishment of the Templar Order.

 

I fail to see how the "corrupt, evil Chantry" is to be blamed for the Templars when everything about it is known upfront. It is no secret that Templars slowly lose their minds and become dependent on the stuff. Recruits know this long before the ritual they do when a Templar first consumes lyrium.

 

The Chantry has a monopoly on the stuff, ya, and it is dangerous stuff. They probably mean well by hoarding it so the wrong hands don't get it or charge ridiculous prices for addicts and to monitor its use in the world.

 

Unlike the Grey Wardens, in which everything is a secret, even the fact that you can die in the Joining and you will die with your Calling later are secrets, the Chantry and Templar Order have been very upfront about what it means to be a Templar. Even the Seekers kept their secrets, even from the Chantry.

 

Samson became an evil bastard who decided to curse his fellows instead of trying to help them and then use them for his misguided vendetta against the world. He was the opposite of Cullen.

 

I do not blame the Templars for demonic possessions, that is the risk of just being a mage, although there were Templars who did not follow regulations and were evil bastards which made some mages desperate. I don't blame templars for blood mages, that is the choice of the mage. I don't blame the rebel mages for the Red Templars, that was the corruption of Samson, Corypheus, Lucius, and other leaders.

 

The leaders of both parties are at fault for the actions of their fellows, because the whole mess did not need to happen if it wasn't for the corruption of the Seekers leadership and the warmongering of some Enchanters.

 

Still, interesting perspectives given.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

The use of ingesting lyrium to combat Fade problems (mages, demons) comes before the establishment of the Templar Order.

I fail to see how the "corrupt, evil Chantry" is to be blamed for the Templars when everything about it is known upfront. It is no secret that Templars slowly lose their minds and become dependent on the stuff. Recruits know this long before the ritual they do when a Templar first consumes lyrium.

The Chantry has a monopoly on the stuff, ya, and it is dangerous stuff. They probably mean well by hoarding it so the wrong hands don't get it or charge ridiculous prices for addicts and to monitor its use in the world.

Unlike the Grey Wardens, in which everything is a secret, even the fact that you can die in the Joining and you will die with your Calling later are secrets, the Chantry and Templar Order have been very upfront about what it means to be a Templar. Even the Seekers kept their secrets, even from the Chantry.

Samson became an evil bastard who decided to curse his fellows instead of trying to help them and then use them for his misguided vendetta against the world. He was the opposite of Cullen.

I do not blame the Templars for demonic possessions, that is the risk of just being a mage, although there were Templars who did not follow regulations and were evil bastards which made some mages desperate. I don't blame templars for blood mages, that is the choice of the mage. I don't blame the rebel mages for the Red Templars, that was the corruption of Samson, Corypheus, Lucius, and other leaders.

The leaders of both parties are at fault for the actions of their fellows, because the whole mess did not need to happen if it wasn't for the corruption of the Seekers leadership and the warmongering of some Enchanters.

Still, interesting perspectives given.

It is a problem when the chantry keeps Templars leashed on lyrium so they either follow the rules or get kicked out.

Samson was left to rot simply because Meredith was a tyrannical Mage hater and all he did was show compassion. Samson suffered lyrium withdrawal simply because he dared show compassion.

The chantry obviously only cares about keepin the Templars to itself. Why else would they make other people selling it illegal? Just to keep the Templars and throw them away when their done.

Read the lyrium addict codex. It outright says being refused lyrium is used as a punishment against Templars

[Cobra's_back]

The use of ingesting lyrium to combat Fade problems (mages, demons) comes before the establishment of the Templar Order.

 

I fail to see how the "corrupt, evil Chantry" is to be blamed for the Templars when everything about it is known upfront. It is no secret that Templars slowly lose their minds and become dependent on the stuff. Recruits know this long before the ritual they do when a Templar first consumes lyrium.

 

The Chantry has a monopoly on the stuff, ya, and it is dangerous stuff. They probably mean well by hoarding it so the wrong hands don't get it or charge ridiculous prices for addicts and to monitor its use in the world.

 

Unlike the Grey Wardens, in which everything is a secret, even the fact that you can die in the Joining and you will die with your Calling later are secrets, the Chantry and Templar Order have been very upfront about what it means to be a Templar. Even the Seekers kept their secrets, even from the Chantry.

 

Samson became an evil bastard who decided to curse his fellows instead of trying to help them and then use them for his misguided vendetta against the world. He was the opposite of Cullen.

 

I do not blame the Templars for demonic possessions, that is the risk of just being a mage, although there were Templars who did not follow regulations and were evil bastards which made some mages desperate. I don't blame templars for blood mages, that is the choice of the mage. I don't blame the rebel mages for the Red Templars, that was the corruption of Samson, Corypheus, Lucius, and other leaders.

 

The leaders of both parties are at fault for the actions of their fellows, because the whole mess did not need to happen if it wasn't for the corruption of the Seekers leadership and the warmongering of some Enchanters.

 

Still, interesting perspectives given.

 

Did they really need lyrium to fight magic? The seekers didn't need it. I have to question any method that makes drug addicts.

 

 

I also agree Blood magic has been around before Templars ever existed. There was always someone or something who wanted to abuse power. 

 

I remember there was a group that was trying to get Anders to blow up the old lady, and there was the Enchanter who murdered the tranquil to blame it on Rhys so she could get the war started. The Lord Seeker was power hungry and willing to commit murder. All that is true.

 

However, if the Templars were not made into addicts would they have been easy prey for Red lyrium?

 

I like that many of the Templars follow Cullen's path to get off the stuff.

[Cobra's_back]

And yet if they didn't ingested Lyrium, they couldn't have helped you to close the Breach.
Lyrium is necessary for them to fight against magic.

 

To a point I agree. We wouldn't have needed to close the breach if not for a crazy darkspawn mage and a rebel ancient mage. I just wonder if a group of seekers could do the same thing?

[Cobra's_back]

It is a problem when the chantry keeps Templars leashed on lyrium so they either follow the rules or get kicked out.

Samson was left to rot simply because Meredith was a tyrannical Mage hater and all he did was show compassion. Samson suffered lyrium withdrawal simply because he dared show compassion.

The chantry obviously only cares about keepin the Templars to itself. Why else would they make other people selling it illegal? Just to keep the Templars and throw them away when their done.

Read the lyrium addict codex. It outright says being refused lyrium is used as a punishment against Templars

 

 

So true. We have a long line of takers. That doesn't mean that all members of the Chantry are bad, but the good ones knew the system needed change. I for one would want the chantry to change and another method found. This method was self-destructive. It gave Cory the opening he needed. If not Cory, someone else would exploit it.