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[Bayonet Hipshot]

After much testing and experimentation, I have come to a somewhat similar conclusion regarding both the Rift Mage and the Necromancer specializations. The conclusion being that you do not need to pick all the abilities in the specialization tree.

 

Rift Mage

 

Stonefist and Veilstrike are the best abilities in this specialization.  Why ?

 

An upgraded Stonefist does good damage, has a decent mana cost, has a decent area of effect and it weakens all enemies in the game without fail.

 

Upgraded Veilstrike has really low mana cost, decent cooldown time and are good radius to apply Weakness on enemies. It works best in applying Weakness towards mooks and is not effective on teleporting enemies, giants and dragons.

 

Pull of the Abyss is awesome in theory but not so much in practice. Here's why -

 

Upgraded Veilstrike

Area of Effect: 5 meters.

Cooldown Time: 24 seconds.

Cost: 20 mana.

Weakened Duration: 10 seconds.

 

Upgraded Pull of the Abyss

Area of Effect: 6 meters.

Duration: 12 seconds.

Cooldown Time: 24 seconds.

Cost: 65 mana.

Weakened Duration: 10 seconds.

 

Upgraded Static Cage

Area of Effect: 9 meters.

Duration: 8 seconds

Cooldown Time: 32 seconds.

Cost: 65 mana.

Paralyzed Duration: 2 seconds.

Damage: Electric 50% per attack.

 

Veilstrike does most of what Pull of the Abyss does with less mana. More importantly, you save ability points by not investing Pull of the Abyss because it is optional due to the fact that it is at the end of the spell tree but like it or not you have to invest a point Veilstrike to get to the passives.

 

Additionally, Static Cage is far better than Pull of the Abyss. It has a larger radius and does more affects for the same mana cost. One could argue that Pull of the Abyss works brilliantly with Fire Mine but you can use Veilstrike on most enemies followed by Fire Mine. Or you could use Static Cage with Fire Mine. I would be more favorable towards Pull of the Abyss if spells like Blizzard worked properly and could be obtained without investing too much points into the Ice school.

 

What's more, you do not want to become a one trick pony and spam Pull of the Abyss + Fire Mine all the time. It makes playing Rift Mage as dull as playing a Knight Enchanter who spams Spirit Blade + Fade Cloak all the time. For now, as it stands, Pull of the Abyss is optional if you do not have Static Cage. Personally, why a mage would not want to invest in Static Cage is beyond me. If you do not have Static Cage, then you will want to have Pull of the Abyss. Otherwise, give Pull of the Abyss to Solas while your Inquisitor can have Veilstrike.

 

Which means that to get the best out of Rift Mage, you only need 8 ability points: Stonefist+, Veilstrike+,  Encircling Veil , Restorative Veil, Twisting Veil, Smothering Veil.

 

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Necromancer

 

Walking Bomb is the only good ability in this specialization. Both Horror and Spirit Mark are bad. Here's why -

 

Upgraded Horror

Panic Duration: 6 seconds.

Area of Effect: 3 meters.

Cooldown Time: 24 seconds.

Cost: 50 mana.

Damage Per Second: 50% Spirit.

Armor Reduction: 20

 

Upgraded Wall of Fire

Size: 9 meters.

Duration: 20 seconds.

Damage Per Second: 200% Fire.

Damage Over Time: 15 seconds (with Pyromancer)

Fear Duration: 5 seconds.

Cooldown Time: 32 seconds.

Cost: 35 mana.

 

Wall of Fire is cheaper, has longer damage over time, higher damage per second, and larger radius. Horror only has cooldown time bonus and an extra second of panic/fear. Wall of Fire is far superior to Horror.

 

Spirit Mark is bad because it is bugged. Target resurrected with Spirit Mark behave in a really stupid manner. The best way to describe AI behavior under Spirit Mark is to equate it to AI behavior under Dominate in Mass Effect 3. Enemies under Spirit Mark just blindly stand there and their targeting is awful. I guess it is immersive since we are reanimating a corpse with proto-spirits drawn to death and proto-spirits are not very intelligent creatures but that immersion is turning what is theoretically a good ability into a bad one. There is also the fact that it can bug the game out when you are done with a particular combat. Yes, you have to toggle it on or off but it does other crazy things outside of combat that forces you to reload.

 

Which means to make the most out of Necromancer, you only need 7 ability points: Horror, Walking Bomb+, Death Siphon, Blinding Terror, Power of the Dead, Simulacrum.

 

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Conclusion

 

The only really good abilities from Rift Mage and Necromancer are Stonefist, Veilstrike and Walking Bomb respectively. Just invest in those abilities and the passives to make the most out of both specializations. Elemental substitutes such as Static Cage and Wall of Fire are far superior to Pull of the Abyss and Horror. Spirit Mark is bugged. Now bugs can get fixed and patched up but Bioware has a well known history of not patching things that needed patching and instead patching things that did not need patching. The Amulet of Power is a good example.

 

Thoughts and comments are welcome.

 

EDIT: Modified some things regarding Rift Mage after feedback. Kudos to PapaCharlie9

[Dabrikishaw]

Thoughtful analysis. I guess I need to respec my usual AI Solas and Dorian.

[draken-heart]

Honestly, I would assume that Inferno Rift mage, Storm/Spirit Knight Enchanter, and Winter Necromancer would be best utilized. Why?

• For Rift mage, the Specialization is pointless unless you can do damage to weakened targets, and I hear that the storm tree is kind of bugged with the Spec.
• Necromancer would be best served with spells that allow for much death allowing them to get their bonuses and survive as they need to be close to get those bonuses.
• Knight Enchanter is the odd man out, so it gets storm for that reason really.

[The Baconer]

Knight Enchanter is the odd man out, so it gets storm for that reason really.

 

Nah, it's totally an Inferno fit.

[draken-heart]

Nah, it's totally an Inferno fit.

 

I was going by the "one specialization for each element" rule, and storm was the only thing left, so it got placed on KE for no other reason. Sure it seems like it makes sense to do storm+Rift, but most of the bonuses rely on the target being weakened, and outside of Elemental barrage, not much in the Storm tree will allow that to happen.

[andy6915]

I was going by the "one specialization for each element" rule, and storm was the only thing left, so it got placed on KE for no other reason. Sure it seems like it makes sense to do storm+Rift, but most of the bonuses rely on the target being weakened, and outside of Elemental barrage, not much in the Storm tree will allow that to happen.

No, frost just sucks in general. It has good dodging and support abilities and winters grasp is good, but 3 out 4 of its direct damage spells are awful. It really doesn't go good with... Anything, really. So you can't do a "1 spec 1 element rule", because one of the elements is a stinker.

[PapaCharlie9]

After much testing and experimentation, I have come to a somewhat similar conclusion regarding both the Rift Mage and the Necromancer specializations. The conclusion being that you only have one good ability when it comes to both the specializations.
 
Rift Mage
 
Stonefist is the only good ability in this specialization. Both Veilstrike and Pull of the Abyss are bad. Why ? An upgraded Stonefist does good damage, has a decent mana cost, has a decent area of effect and it weakens all enemies in the game without fail.
 
Veilstrike only has an extra meter of radius over Stonefist and it has a really low mana cost but it does not work on most enemies. It only works on mooks, who are affected by Stonefist as well.
 
Pull of the Abyss is awesome in theory but bad in practice. It does not work against teleporting enemies, giants and dragons. In other words, it works best against mooks, who are affected by Stonefist as well. More importantly, Static Cage is far superior to Pull of the Abyss. Both cover the same radius and both cost the same amount of mana. However, Static Cage deals actual damage on things and can work on enemies like dragons. The fact that Pull of the Abyss causes weakness is rather irrelevant because Stonefist does the exact for a lot less mana, quicker cooldown. There is also the fact you can perform the Fire Mine + Static Cage combo just as well as you perform Fire Mine + Pull of the Abyss.
 
Which means that to get the best out of Rift Mage, you only need 7 ability points: Stonefist+, Veilstrike,  Encircling Veil , Restorative Veil, Twisting Veil, Smothering Veil.

Good analysis, but I do think you are undervaluing Veil Strike just a tad. Sure, it only works on mooks, but there are mobs of mooks all over the place and some of them are troublesome, like rifts that are all shades or patrols with Hakkonite assassins (or whatever those stealthy DW rogue types are called). The CC value of AoE knock back should not be discounted. I knocked an entire wave of enemies on their arses in the Stone-Bear Hold arena with a single Veil Strike. All but one of them, a Bruiser, never got back up after Sera, Dorian and Cass were done with them, and without using a Stone Fist or a Static Cage, btw.

Upgraded Stone Fist is just not as effective on mobs. It will knock back the one you target and weaken a couple of nearby enemies, but that's it. Don't get me wrong, Stone Fist is awesome for damage and with the right gear and passives, you can practically spam it. But for knocking down 6+ mooks all in one shot, Veil Strike is superior to Stone Fist.

If all you care about is boss battles, though, yeah, stick with Stone Fist.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Good analysis, but I do think you are undervaluing Veil Strike just a tad. Sure, it only works on mooks, but there are mobs of mooks all over the place and some of them are troublesome, like rifts that are all shades or patrols with Hakkonite assassins (or whatever those stealthy DW rogue types are called). The CC value of AoE knock back should not be discounted. I knocked an entire wave of enemies on their arses in the Stone-Bear Hold arena with a single Veil Strike. All but one of them, a Bruiser, never got back up after Sera, Dorian and Cass were done with them, and without using a Stone Fist or a Static Cage, btw.

Upgraded Stone Fist is just not as effective on mobs. It will knock back the one you target and weaken a couple of nearby enemies, but that's it. Don't get me wrong, Stone Fist is awesome for damage and with the right gear and passives, you can practically spam it. But for knocking down 6+ mooks all in one shot, Veil Strike is superior to Stone Fist.

If all you care about is boss battles, though, yeah, stick with Stone Fist.

 

I just did some testing and it appears that you are correct.

[mmoblitz]

Or you could forgo the specializations altogether as I did and build your mages so that they take advantage of the best of the passives and elements.  Almost all bosses/dragons are immune to CC and most weakness.  KE is the only spec that works against just about everything.  Rift/Necro are all about CC and Weakness and pointless against boss/dragons.  With my builds the fights are much more enjoyable and fun for me.  I can take an all mage party and take down any boss/dragon I encounter and not worry what it's immune to.

[MrTornado]

Or you could forgo the specializations altogether as I did and build your mages so that they take advantage of the best of the passives and elements.  Almost all bosses/dragons are immune to CC and most weakness.  KE is the only spec that works against just about everything.  Rift/Necro are all about CC and Weakness and pointless against boss/dragons.  With my builds the fights are much more enjoyable and fun for me.  I can take an all mage party and take down any boss/dragon I encounter and not worry what it's immune to.

All enemies in the game with the exception of Behemoths, Fear Demons and Giants can be weakened.

Calpernia can be frozen and Samson can be put to sleep.

All 3 specializations give mages access to spells that deal spirit damage which is arguably the most reliable element throughout the game

[MrTornado]

To my knowledge the only way an enemy can become  immune to weakness is if you apply "Shocked" or if the enemy puts up guard.

[Bigdawg13]

I know many others will disagree with me, but as long as shocked overwrites weakened, I would never suggest static cage as an alternative to pull of the abyss.  Other than that, I liked the OP's post.

[mredders91]

Static cage is still something i play around with on a rift mage, having it overwrite weakness with sleep can be annoying but i can self detonate with immolate to cause nightmare or stonefist to cause rupture both can do some good damage, the problem is mana management afterwards.

Edit:

There is Fade Touched Nevarrite which you could run which can give the PoA without using a skill point and with energy barrage you could proc it pretty often. 

 

[Cmpunker13]

 

Additionally, Static Cage is far better than Pull of the Abyss. It has a larger radius and does more affects for the same mana cost. One could argue that Pull of the Abyss works brilliantly with Fire Mine but you can use Veilstrike on most enemies followed by Fire Mine. Or you could use Static Cage with Fire Mine. I would be more favorable towards Pull of the Abyss if spells like Blizzard worked properly and could be obtained without investing too much points into the Ice school.

 

 

I'm going to roll a Rift mage and I have a question. I want to avoid all electric damage to avoid the sleep bug, so I'm going to take Fire Mine and Blizzard. Is it viable to use Veilstrike/PoA, Blizzard and then random nukes? In this scenario is Veilstrike better than PoA?

[andy6915]

I'm going to do a Rift mage, so I have a question. I want to avoid all electric damage to avoid the sleep bug, so I'm going to take Fire Mine and Blizzard. Is viable to use Veilstrike/PoA, Blizzard and then random nukes? In this scenario is Veilstrike better than PoA?

I would avoid blizzard, it sucks. Used it on enemies weak to ice before, and it barely affected even them. But yes, fire mine and PoA work amazingly well together, and may as well be the unofficial trademark combo of rift mages of any build. Veilstrike and PoA are not entirely comparable. Both crowd control, yes, but they're different. One is about controlling their movements, the other is about crowd knockdown.

To put it another way: One makes enemies have a timeout and gets them off your ass immediately (veilstrike), the other is about keeping them from ever getting on your ass in the first place and pulling them into mines for you (pull of the abyss).

Edit:

Veilstrike is also one of the best ways in the game to interrupt enemy archers. Useful, considering their damage output and difficulty of keeping them from picking you and your party off. I mean, a lot of abilities can keep a single archer locked down at a time... But a rift mage can put an entire group of archers on their asses with it, and from a distance at that.

[Cmpunker13]

I would avoid blizzard, it sucks. Used it on enemies weak to ice before, and it barely affected even them.

 

Wut? I've read that an upgraded blizzard can be sustained indefinitely by a rift mage... it cc, it freezes (now allowing the fixed Stonefist to do an impact combo!)... isn't it true? If blizzard is not viable I'll drop the idea of a rift mage, since I've already done the lightning/fire path with my KE and wanted to try something new...

 

Just out of curiosity (and to be prepared to change my plan with the rift mage ), what's an ideal necro build? Is static cage necessary to maxing Walking Bomb potential or do I need Solas PoA? What are the best combos and strategies for a necro?

[draken-heart]

Wut? I've read that an upgraded blizzard can be sustained indefinitely by a rift mage... it cc, it freezes (now allowing the fixed Stonefist to do an impact combo!)... isn't it true? If blizzard is not viable I'll drop the idea of a rift mage, since I've already done the lightning/fire path with my KE and wanted to try something new...

 

Just out of curiosity (and to be prepared to change my plan with the rift mage ), what's an ideal necro build? Is static cage necessary to maxing Walking Bomb potential or do I need Solas PoA? What are the best combos and strategies for a necro?

 

I would just ignore anything that guy says. He seems to not know what the whole point of the winter line even is. The whole point of the winter line is Crowd Control and Combos. Shatter is the combo that I know of that is accessible by anyone as long as the enemy is frozen first.

[andy6915]

deleted for safety sake.

[draken-heart]

F*ck you too, dick. So glad to be insulted by dune ******* I don't even know.

 

All I am saying is that Winter is not fire and is not MEANT TO BE fire. Winter is CC and combos, inferno/fire is damage, damage, damage. Try all fire, no spirit, no winter, nor static cage on night mare, and see how many times you get killed.

[andy6915]

And no, I do know the point of winter. Yay, freezing, I get that. But while you're using your mana regen for blizzard, you could be doing something that does more damage than a sword and shield warrior's basic attacks. But no, greatly hurt your own damage per second so you can freeze enemies every few seconds. I don't use pure damage builds, my last one had me using static cage as my main move. But the fact is that blizzard is quite possibly the most unreliable and useless crowd control ability in the game. Nearly every CC you can choose from will be better than blizzard. Only reason blizzard might possibly be useful is if you want ice armor up 24/7, which is admittedly a decent reason. You want a frozen target fast, use winters grasp or maybe ice mine. Keeping up a blizzard the entire time sacrifices mana that could be going to actually-good CC spells.

 

 

All I am saying is that Winter is not fire and is not MEANT TO BE fire. Winter is CC and combos, inferno/fire is damage, damage, damage. Try all fire, no spirit, no winter, nor static cage on night mare, and see how many times you get killed.

 

So that wasn't meant as an insult? You sure as hell could have worded that different then. By the way, excuse the odd typos. Swype is useful, but it really likes to be as stupid as possible at interpreting your swiping. Ugh... I'm getting a warning point for that, aren't I?

[Cmpunker13]

. Keeping up a blizzard the entire time sacrifices mana that could be going to actually-good CC spells.

 

 

I thought that restorative veil was so efficient to allow you to cast spells while blizzard is on. Is it true or false (I'm asking to everybody, ofc)?

[andy6915]

I thought that restorative veil was so efficient to allow you to cast spells while blizzard is on. Is it true or false (I'm asking to everybody, ofc)?

 

It is true. But it will slow down your rate of mana regen to lower than it would be to keep it going. I would suggest skipping it and using your super high regen for other spells, while Draken says the sacrifice to mana regen is worth freezing enemies. Who's word you accept is up to you. I guess it does somewhat depend on your spells though, if you have a lot of spells with long cooldown than it would stand to reason that higher mana regen wouldn't help you in that case and blizzard would at least give you something to do besides basic attacks while waiting for your spells to become usable again. If you have relatively short cooldowns on your spell loadout though, I don't think it's worth wasting your high mana regen on it.

[draken-heart]

It is true. But it will slow down your rate of mana regen to lower than it would be to keep it going. I would suggest skipping it and using your super high regen for other spells, while Draken says the sacrifice to mana regen is worth freezing enemies. Who's word you accept is up to you. I guess it does somewhat depend on your spells though, if you have a lot of spells with long cooldown than it would stand to reason that higher mana regen wouldn't help you in that case and blizzard would at least give you something to do besides basic attacks while waiting for your spells to become usable again. If you have relatively short cooldowns on your spell loadout though, I don't think it's worth wasting your high mana regen on it.

 

I honestly think that Blizzard is more of an "OH ****" spell than anything else. But I do believe that the freeze is worth it on a nightmare build. On nightmare, enemief have higher health and do more damage (I believe, never played on nightmare) so it would stand to reason that, especially in a non-crafting pre-skyhold run, you would want anything that would give an advantage to keeping your party alive.

[andy6915]

I honestly think that Blizzard is more of an "OH ****" spell than anything else. But I do believe that the freeze is worth it on a nightmare build. On nightmare, enemief have higher health and do more damage (I believe, never played on nightmare) so it would stand to reason that, especially in a non-crafting pre-skyhold run, you would want anything that would give an advantage to keeping your party alive.

 

I know, I play nightmare myself. Mostly. I play hard mode until Skyhold, since you're a lot weaker before that. After Skyhold is reached though, nightmare is what I play on from there since it's the only way enemies put up a fight anymore. Yet, on nightmare, I didn't find blizzard to be worth it.

[Cmpunker13]

I'll explain myself better: I've already played a KE, on nightmare, while using mostly Static Cage, Chain Lightning, electric staff for the Barrage (qunari=sarebaas!) and Fire Mine. Against certain enemies (pride and despair demons) I went melee with the spirit blade. It was fun.

Now I want to try another mage, but I don't want to use the same spells I used before (I know I can't ignore Barrage and Fire Mine, that's a stupid decision by the developers imo). I ignored the Winter tree with the KE, so I thought it was a good idea to use it on a rift mage, given the mana regen passive would allow an extended use of blizzard (my support AI mages always use ice mine in my playthoughs, so I don't want to use it).

The point is: no Blizzard = same mage as before = not interested. I don't need it to be the best spec, I just want to use blizzard a lot. I also don't want to get pwned (mostly a JoH problem), so the build still has to be efficient.