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Help with Rogue Specializations


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#26
andy6915

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I'm not trying to defense the Artificer spec at all here so I trimmed that portion of your quote. I don't find Tempest interesting in any way because, as was mentioned in an earlier post, for anything outside of the most trivial encounters you won't be using FoFr or FoL for anything other then extending the duration of Flask of Fire so you can spam your hardest hitting abilities as many times as you can. Sure, there are more "cool" abilities in the Tempest tree. There are also far less interesting decisions about what ability to use when on what target.

 

Actually, I will be (at the bolded part). FoL is a great battle opener, allows you to immediately pin an enemy down before they can even react. As I said a while ago, it's a great ability to pop out of stealth with. And no, FoF is not all I'm using the other 2 for. You must be playing like a complete idiot to think that. How is setting up your own cross class combo with freezing and then detonating with a massive hit useless? Or how about freezing a couple enemies at once by using it in a clustered group and detonating all of them in rapid succession useless? Seriously, that's not rhetorical. Explain how that is so useless compared to FoF, how is being able to detonate enemies I personally primed by freezing useless? I suspect I won't be getting any good answers...

 

The assassin would look at an enemy party consisting of a defender, spellbinder an a couple archers and decide which enemy(ones) get cc'd and what one do I take down first. The Tempest just dives right in, hits flask of fire and spams his hardest hitting abilities until it runs out or they are dead. That to me is not interesting gameplay. Fighting a dragon would be the same thing form a Tempest. While the assassin isn't a whole lot different, there's still mark of death to consider at least. "How do I fit as much damage into 7-7.5 seconds as I can? Want to do as much as possible in that time while still being ale to trigger MoD early to get the bonus damage."


Yes, tempests never go for priority targets. Nope, we just go in like a berserker with no thought at all and just wildly swing at everything... You detecting the sarcasm yet? Just making sure you do, it's hard to detect in text format. And mark of death is so complicated? Wow, and you think I'm the one not making a good argument. Yeah "use it and then hit it with everything I have so it makes a big burst of damage" is extremely complex gameplay compared to priming targets with freezing and shattering them, it takes less actual effort and everything :rolleyes:. No, seriously. Mark of death takes less effort than doing a self prime and detonate combo. At least that takes more than hitting the button and spamming your strongest attacks so the MoD does lots of damage. Which one is the spamming specialization again? You seem to have the mistaken idea that it's tempest. Even for FoF, I fail to see how "activate flask and spam strongest powers" and "activate MoD and spam strongest powers" are so different than each other.

 

I think the opposite is what is really happening here. You're seeing flexibility where realistically, for any encounter that isn't completely trivialized by levels or gear, there really isn't that much flexibility. Sure, you get to use all your "cool" abilities. The freezing people and the super speed, the abilities with no cooldowns and limitless stamina. The issue is that unlike the other 2 specs, if you don't use your "cool" abilities immediately one after the other ending the cycle with fire you're doing it wrong. If there is a way to play that is categorically "doing it wrong" there's no versatility there. There's no flexibility in a system that "forces" you to give up damage potential to do special things like freeze people or have super speed for a longer duration. Not when you are playing a rogue, THE damage dealing class in DAI. Warriors are tanks, mages are support/CC. Both are capable of dealing damage but its not their main role, its ours.

 
Right, no flexibility in having super speed and bullet time and crowd control via freezing and having self detonating combos via freezing+pretty much every dagger skill and being able to use powers without limit and being able to pack a wide assortment of tonics like mighty offense potion or rock armor and being able to use more of them. But that mark of death though, now that is flexible. Use it, spam lots of powers, detonate... Very very flexible. And why exactly is using the elixers one after the other bad? Don't you spam powers with ALL classes and specs, usually in a pattern? Look at favorite mage combos. pull of the abyss>fire mine>energy barrage, that combo will be one that a rift mage will be doing CONSTANTLY (sometimes the energy barrage goes first because you might have a fire staff and can use it to make the enemy's resistance to fire lower for the FM). Even the fact that you'll constantly be using 1 of your 3 RM powers to keep the weakened effect constant. So every class spams abilities with auto attacks on backup, nearly every class and spec has you going through a usual cycle of powers instead of using them randomly... But tempest is bad because it gives you very useful bonuses for doing so, unlike most others where the cycle is only for the cycle's sake? Oh, and tempest is extremely damaging. Extraordinarily damaging. More damaging than your beloved assassin and mark of death, if built properly. Unbuilt right, assassin wins. Built to their absolute best, tempest wins. But you don't know that, because you never built a tempest right.
 

Perhaps it's just because I've always gravitated towards the stealth, melee assassin type rogues in every RPG I've played. Maybe it's entirely down to my playstyle of letting the rest of my party mainly do their own thing on autopilot while I play (mostly) just the PC taking out the dangerous enemies first while the party distracts everyone else. I don't know what the exact reason is, but I know you won't convince me that the spammy repetitive playstyles of the Tempest or Artificer are interesting or fun. Powerful maybe, and if you enjoy super-power and easymode even on the hardest difficulty then to each their own, but its not something that can be called an interesting playstyle.


"stealth melee assassins"

 

Same here.

 

"let rest of party do own thing while I take out priority targets"

 

Same here.

 

*says tempest is spammy*

*plays assassin*

 

:?

 

"tempest sucks but it's actually easy mode and is so good it's a super power unlike my assassin spec that I just admitted is worse by saying assassin makes the game harder than tempest does"

 

How the hell do you manage to ruin your own damn arguments like that? It's an impressive, albeit weird, talent.



#27
Lee80

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So is the artificer any good?  It's the only one I haven't tried yet, and the other 2 are pretty sweet in their own ways.  (Tempest being super fun and a personal favorite so far)  I'm assuming you don't actually need to set up traps before the battle started like they suggested pre-launch, cause no one has time for that.   :ph34r:



#28
andy6915

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So is the artificer any good? It's the only one I haven't tried yet, and the other 2 are pretty sweet in their own ways. (Tempest being super fun and a personal favorite so far) I'm assuming you don't actually need to set up traps before the battle started like they suggested pre-launch, cause no one has time for that. :ph34r:


I've heard it's great. A little focused on passives since most of its active skills aren't great. But those passives? Amazing. As far as I know, it is the overall must damaging rogue spec if built right. Basically, if you have a high critical chance (which you should), it will be outdamaging assassin and tempest both. But I'm no expert at it, so someone else will have to get detailed.
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#29
Lee80

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I've heard it's great. A little focused on passives since most of its active skills aren't great. But those passives? Amazing. As far as I know, it is the overall must damaging rogue spec if built right. Basically, if you have a high critical chance (which you should), it will be outdamaging assassin and tempest both. But I'm no expert at it, so someone else will have to get detailed.

Ah okay.  Passives are always nice since you can't use but 8 abilities in battle anyway.  Would be good if you didn't really want to focus on a specialization too much I suppose. 



#30
andy6915

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Ah okay.  Passives are always nice since you can't use but 8 abilities in battle anyway.  Would be good if you didn't really want to focus on a specialization too much I suppose. 

 

To give a vague recollection, it apparently reduces cooldowns for every critical you and the rest of the party get and gives stamina for every critical. I will tell you, people have killed high dragons in less than a minute, LEGIT, with it. Honestly, despite my bashing earlier, artificer is really damn good. Nothing in the game, not even a perfectly built tempest playing perfectly, can match an archer of that spec. That is key though, you want to be an archer. It doesn't work nearly as well with daggers.

 

Ah... I got you something nice. I just found a post from an expert at that spec who gives the detailed explanation that explains way better than I can. Read this topic, and you'll know all you need to about it.

 

http://forum.bioware.../#entry19345870



#31
Cmpunker13

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To give a vague recollection, it apparently reduces cooldowns for every critical you and the rest of the party get and gives stamina for every critical. I will tell you, people have killed high dragons in less than a minute, LEGIT, with it. Honestly, despite my bashing earlier, artificer is really damn good. Nothing in the game, not even a perfectly built tempest playing perfectly, can match an archer of that spec. That is key though, you want to be an archer. It doesn't work nearly as well with daggers.

 

 

As an archer to capitalize on criticals for stamina regen you have to use leaping shot, which is a love it or hate it skill, and then toss out the Mines. So it's basically a short range (if not melee) archer - again, love it or hate it.

Dual wield is perfectly viable and honestly it feels far more natural than the archer.

 

The problem with the artificer to me is that you always do the same things over and over again. Leaping shot + Elemental Mines, rinse and repeat. Spinning Blade + Elemental Mines, rinse and repeat. It's a lot of fun for the first ten minutes, then it get soooo boring.

Just my opinion, ofc.



#32
CanadianPeanut

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"tempest sucks but it's actually easy mode and is so good it's a super power unlike my assassin spec that I just admitted is worse by saying assassin makes the game harder than tempest does"
 
How the hell do you manage to ruin your own damn arguments like that? It's an impressive, albeit weird, talent.


You know... I think you need to work on your reading comprehension. I haven't once said that the Tempest "sucks". I've said I don't find the gameplay interesting. I've admitted that the spec is viable, I just don't find it interesting to play. Every one of my posts has focused on the gameplay of the Tempest, NOT how strong or weak the spec is.

#33
Cmpunker13

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Artificer is extremely flexible as the only valuable non-focus ability in their tree is elemental mines (which btw is ridiculously awesome when upgraded with +50 stamina necklace).  But as an archer I had a lot of fun using hook-n-tackle followed by leaping shot (or explosive shot).  Or you could stand apart and use long shot or full draw.  As a DW artificer I took advantage of unique abilities like spinning blades and throwing knives.  This made a unique play style that was dynamic and variable.

 

 

Variable? There's no reason to use Full Draw post-Skyhold, and Long Shot is a dps loss if you can't spam Elemental Mines (which force you to be in a near melee range, meaning Long Shot is crippled). Leaping Shot is the only way to go. As a DW you just spam spinning blades, then the mines. All of the others abilities (except evade) are useless, stealth included.

 

Just to be clear: I'm not defending the Tempest, as I never played it. I played and archer assassin and found it boring (but I guess the problem to me is the archer stuff). Unfortunately the pain that the rogue is pre-skyhold prevents me to start a new one.

What I can't understand is why a guy can't say "the tempest is cool" without someone going "this or that is better". The game is so easy on nightmare that you can do it without even choosing a spec.



#34
tcun44

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So is the artificer any good?  It's the only one I haven't tried yet, and the other 2 are pretty sweet in their own ways.  (Tempest being super fun and a personal favorite so far)  I'm assuming you don't actually need to set up traps before the battle started like they suggested pre-launch, cause no one has time for that.   :ph34r:

 

Artificer Archer is god mode, essentially. I can see how it would get boring for some. People talk about KE being over powering. I never feel threatened as an Artificer. Elemental Mines+ leaping shot for trash mobs (add a static cage to the equation to really see some fireworks). Three or fewer high levels baddies would be Full Draw, long shot, then auto attack a few times- then rinse and repeat.  Best boss killer in the game. Hail of Arrows kills anything in less than 20 seconds.

 

DW is more fun (opinion, obviously). Assassin and Tempest are both a blast. Working my way thru a DW Tempest gameplay now- really enjoy it.


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#35
Bigdawg13

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Variable? There's no reason to use Full Draw post-Skyhold, and Long Shot is a dps loss if you can't spam Elemental Mines (which force you to be in a near melee range, meaning Long Shot is crippled). Leaping Shot is the only way to go. As a DW you just spam spinning blades, then the mines. All of the others abilities (except evade) are useless, stealth included.

 

Just to be clear: I'm not defending the Tempest, as I never played it. I played and archer assassin and found it boring (but I guess the problem to me is the archer stuff). Unfortunately the pain that the rogue is pre-skyhold prevents me to start a new one.

What I can't understand is why a guy can't say "the tempest is cool" without someone going "this or that is better". The game is so easy on nightmare that you can do it without even choosing a spec.

 

What I can't understand is why a guy can't say "I didn't like a specialization because of X, Y, and Z" without having someone jump down my throat and call me names.  It's like I'm arguing with my teenage daughter in here.



#36
Bigdawg13

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So is the artificer any good?  It's the only one I haven't tried yet, and the other 2 are pretty sweet in their own ways.  (Tempest being super fun and a personal favorite so far)  I'm assuming you don't actually need to set up traps before the battle started like they suggested pre-launch, cause no one has time for that.   :ph34r:

 

Artificer was really awesome.  It is Inquisition's hidden little dirty secret.  I had avoided it for the longest time, having no interest in the flavor it supposedly offered.  When I finally decided to give it a try, I was blown away.  There is a common misconception by many people (most haven't even played it) that artificer is all about the passives. 

 

However, the only skill that falls a little flat is spike trap.  And even that is fun to put down every so often.  I admit I rarely would put it on my bars though.

 

But elemental mines is just amazing.  It levels the playing field.  I upgraded it and put on a +50 stamina necklace.  And it's like watching the 4th of July.  Even though it drains all 150 stamina, the high crit of my party and myself would re-fill it almost instantly.  And no matter the resistances of the enemies, there were plenty of bombs of all types to just decimate anything.

 

And if that wasn't enough, I actually found that fallback plan was really awesome to use.  It's strategic uses were just so much fun.  I would use it, instead of a health potion, to get my life back.  I could put it on a cliff and jump off as an enemy followed and then use it to reappear back up top.  So many options.  It did eventually take the place of stealth, but I felt it was a win-win.

 

Hail of Arrows is the most overpowered focus I have ever used.  I was playing the game when there was still a bug with hail of arrows used in conjunction with leaping shot spam.  But it didn't always bug out (I've heard it's fixed now).  But I could kill any enemy in the use of one hail of arrows(and this is without stacking buffs or debuffs).  Thousand cuts comes close (and surpassed it when you could exploit flask of fire) but hail of arrows is just great.

 

The primary move that the archer artificer would do (for me anyways) was hook-n-tackle followed by leaping shot spam.  Sometimes I would throw out mines between the two.  But all the damage and crits would refill my bar and reset my cooldowns.  I was unkillable and the damage was absurd.



#37
PapaCharlie9

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There's no reason to use Full Draw post-Skyhold

Except, of course, for one-shot kills, and as the opening action for a dragon battle, or a giant battle, or because you might really like the peeeew sound it makes ... ;)

#38
Cmpunker13

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What I can't understand is why a guy can't say "I didn't like a specialization because of X, Y, and Z" without having someone jump down my throat and call me names.  It's like I'm arguing with my teenage daughter in here.

 

That's funny considering that jumping on someone's throat is what you did with the OP in the first place telling him "you must be easily entertained if you like the Tempest" . Also, you know, having a discussion means sometimes that the guy you're talking with doesn't agree with you, and he explains why, hopefully with some logic. I explained why, to me, the artificer is not a "variable" class. You have to rotate the flasks and the spam twin strike? To me that is more variable to spam leaping shot + elemental mines. You must be easily entertained if you like the Artificer.


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#39
Bigdawg13

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That's funny considering that jumping on someone's throat is what you did with the OP in the first place telling him "you must be easily entertained if you like the Tempest" . Also, you know, having a discussion means sometimes that the guy you're talking with doesn't agree with you, and he explains why, hopefully with some logic. I explained why, to me, the artificer is not a "variable" class. You have to rotate the flasks and the spam twin strike? To me that is more variable to spam leaping shot + elemental mines. You must be easily entertained if you like the Artificer.

 

I know reading is hard, but perhaps you should read ALL the posts.

 

My first post.  http://forum.bioware.../#entry19396006

 

Did you see ANY reference to anything Andy said?  I don't think so.  You know what crap he posted?

 

See here:  http://forum.bioware.../#entry19397023

 

Highlights from Andy include:

 

You're point is that it's so awesome...

 

Don't misread that.  He's saying I'm a bad player because I believe that all of the tempest flasks are required to maximize this specializations potential.

 

I'm not sure how the hell you got that stupid idea.

 

Now I have stupid ideas.

 

Then you sucked at it...

 

Yeah that's so clever and mature.  /sigh

 

But of course, you [Bigdawg78] can't stop for a second to see how being able to hit 10 times faster than usual could have any use :rolleyes:.

 

More sarcasm intended to make me look like an idiot. 

 

And that's just one post.  All I did was state why I felt like the tempest was a poorly constructed spec.  And Andy felt like he had to rip apart someone else's post.  Did I stoop to his level?  Yes I did.  I didn't want to, but I just couldn't take his crap any more.  Classes based on stacking 3 buffs with an 8 slot limit on the bar is just a bad idea.

 

I understand what you're saying about the artificier.  But I do not believe I properly communicated what I meant, if you think I am saying you have to spam leaping shot and elemental mines.  Which, btw, can you please point out where I said that the artificer must maximize his dps by spamming these abilities? 

 

For the tempest to maximize his dps, he must use each flask in succession and end with flask of fire.  Flask of Frost and Flask of Lightning serve no purpose other than you must press the buttons in sequence to stack the damage buff.  I.E. you have 3 bars on your 8-slot bar, just to spam in sequence so you can be properly buffed up and can do high damage.  The artificer, on the other hand, can use ANY ability at ANY time, in ANY sequence.  Their zero-cooldown passive only requires properly geared party and inquisitor.  That is variability.  That is dynamic and changing.  That is 8 slots all available, in any order, however you want and you can be an awesome artificer.  If you want to do super damage as a tempest, say goodbye to ~40% of your abilities just so you can be buffed up (not to mention the ramp up time to get things rolling). 



#40
Cmpunker13

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I understand what you're saying about the artificier.  But I do not believe I properly communicated what I meant, if you think I am saying you have to spam leaping shot and elemental mines.  Which, btw, can you please point out where I said that the artificer must maximize his dps by spamming these abilities? 

 

 

I am the one saying that you have to spam two abilities to use the artificer, because I have an artificer and tried it both as a DW and an archer, on nightmare, on a full playthrough. The point of the whole spec is to keep on casting upgraded elemental mines, which depletes your stamina, and then spam abilities which hit a lot, so you can crit a lot, so you can replenish your stamina while resetting the mines' cooldown. That's all. You don't need nothing else to min/max, you never have to try something different. Yes, you can use long shot in certain situations, you can even use full draw if it pleases you, but it's only situational. If you're DW it's even worse, since spamming Spinning Blades is too optimal to do anything else imo. To me there's no real variability here. Yes, I can use other skills (I'm a great fan of spike trap, especially when used against a terror who is going to teleport under it), but  - from a dps perspective - moving away from the elemental mines spamming feels like gimping myself. That's my point. You need 6 slots (stealth, evade, let's add long shot and full draw for the flavour - with an archer), the rest is circumstantial. Now, the Tempest uses three flasks on rotation, then keeps on spamming twin fangs or deathblow. There's no variability? Ok, I can agree on that. But from my point of view spamming 5 skills is slightly funnier than spamming 2 skills.

I want to add that I'm not just for min/maxing. My fav class is the 2handed templar, I like to use the templar combos and then stunlock the target with pommel strike, mighty blow, the upgraded chain. I know the reaver has best dps, I loved it too, but I prefer a templar cause I find it funnier. I know you can play an artificier without spamming two skills, but I bet that you can play a tempest without spamming the flasks too.



#41
Dabrikishaw

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This goes back to what I originally said, taken far enough any and every specialization can be call "repetitive" for any reason someone desires.

 

Maybe we should all realize that a specialization doesn't live-or-die on it's variety of options, but by how well it does it's stated objective. If you find that specializations objective unappealing for any reason that's completely fair.


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#42
Bigdawg13

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I am the one saying that you have to spam two abilities to use the artificer, because I have an artificer and tried it both as a DW and an archer, on nightmare, on a full playthrough. The point of the whole spec is to keep on casting upgraded elemental mines, which depletes your stamina, and then spam abilities which hit a lot, so you can crit a lot, so you can replenish your stamina while resetting the mines' cooldown. That's all. You don't need nothing else to min/max, you never have to try something different. Yes, you can use long shot in certain situations, you can even use full draw if it pleases you, but it's only situational. If you're DW it's even worse, since spamming Spinning Blades is too optimal to do anything else imo. To me there's no real variability here. Yes, I can use other skills (I'm a great fan of spike trap, especially when used against a terror who is going to teleport under it), but  - from a dps perspective - moving away from the elemental mines spamming feels like gimping myself. That's my point. You need 6 slots (stealth, evade, let's add long shot and full draw for the flavour - with an archer), the rest is circumstantial. Now, the Tempest uses three flasks on rotation, then keeps on spamming twin fangs or deathblow. There's no variability? Ok, I can agree on that. But from my point of view spamming 5 skills is slightly funnier than spamming 2 skills.

I want to add that I'm not just for min/maxing. My fav class is the 2handed templar, I like to use the templar combos and then stunlock the target with pommel strike, mighty blow, the upgraded chain. I know the reaver has best dps, I loved it too, but I prefer a templar cause I find it funnier. I know you can play an artificier without spamming two skills, but I bet that you can play a tempest without spamming the flasks too.

 

Finally!  Something can agree on.  I LOVE the 2H Templar.  It is my favorite too.  :)



#43
Cmpunker13

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Finally!  Something can agree on.  I LOVE the 2H Templar.  It is my favorite too.  :)

 

I must admit I started the 2h templar after I've read some of your posts on that topic, so thanks for that ;)


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#44
andy6915

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I must admit I started the 2h templar after I've read some of your posts on that topic, so thanks for that ;)


Personally, I prefer champion for 2 hander. They ALREADY have great offense, but defense is something they lack in. Champion fills in that weakness. Opposite for sword and shield, they already have great defense and offense is what they lack in which makes me prefer reaver or templar for it. I always liked compensating for weaknesses in a fighting style over doubling down on the style's strengths and weaknesses.