115 réponses à ce sujet

[SolNebula]

Yeah. Man, the FC4 ending fucked me up.

 

You would be surprised....but I discovered the alternate ending first....

[elrofrost]

Anyone or thing that isn't Kai Lang or known to just the comic book readers.

[BabyPuncher]

That'd make me fall in love with the villain lmao. But yes. (though Aria wasn't exactly a villain because she wasn't stopping you, but supporting you instead)

Also i'd really like a female villain this time. A cunning villain who isn't actually a villain in the end because of some nice twist, would be great.

 

First of all, you need to distinguish between antagonists and villains. Villians can be supporting characters or protagonists.

 

Secondly, Aria was a terrible villain. So was Petrosky or whatever his name is.

 

Thirdly, a villain should actually be taking some sort of evil action throughout the story. A 'twist' doesn't negate those actions, and most 'twists' of the sort turn out to be pretty dumb anyways. 
 

[WildOrchid]

You would be surprised....but I discovered the alternate ending first....

 

Can you remind me? I think i know what you mean..

 

First of all, you need to distinguish between antagonists and villains. Villians can be supporting characters or protagonists.

 

Secondly, Aria was a terrible villain. So was Petrosky or whatever his name is.

 

Aria was never a villain.

But yeah, keep talking.

[SolNebula]

Thirdly, a villain should actually be taking some sort of evil action throughout the story.
 

 

Evil is a relative term. Evil for you doesn't mean evil for me necessarily. Pure evil characters are plain stupid. Both the protagonist and the villain should have their own legit view and conflict came because these views are in contrast.

 

Petrovsky was a good villain IMO because he worked for Cerberus but unlike TIM and Kai Leng he understood the entire conflict as a game of chess and not a sum-zero confrontation. He lost the match and surrendered. It's a very likeable villain and someone you can understand....this is good for me.

 

 

Can you remind me? I think i know what you mean..

 

 

I waited for him at the beginning of the game....got to the ending....was like WTF? I was called out in that moment...went out for 9 minutes or so then I came back and saw the ending....LOL

[Ahriman]

Like in KotoR, the ultimate dark Side Path. "No, Bastila, I'm not gong to Team Up with you." "Why?" Because I'm Eviler than thou." I loved that. I still love it. I want a Villain, whom I can outdo in Evilness. Whom I can replace as the ultimate Evil.

Killing off ally with Battle Meditation was dumb though, that's not how I want my evil mastermind to act.

 

Villians who are 'good guy' with 'good intentions' are almost universally characters who take really, really stupid actions to try solve problems.

They can make sympathetic from someone who's fighting off invaders from other galaxy, but there's big chance that he becomes too sympathetic. To degree that people will want to stop this war and hug him. This isn't an option, we need someone determined, someone who kills all those "Maybe we can become useful to them and we'll leave in peace" bastards without hesitation.

[BabyPuncher]

A villian is an evil, active, and powerful character by definition. It's irrelevant what their place in the story is. She does demand Shepard kill off a bunch of civilians to save herself.

 

But you are touching upon the reality that 'evil' companions, such as Aria, are largely a joke. They have to be, because committing genuinely evil acts instead of merely suggesting them would enrage players. Whereas good characters committing acts of good would usually only make players roll their eyes at worst.

[themikefest]

 

 They have to be, because committing genuinely evil acts instead of merely suggesting them would enrage players. 

What would you consider to be an evil act that would enrage players?

[GreyLycanTrope]

A villian is an evil, active, and powerful character by definition. It's irrelevant what their place in the story is. She does demand Shepard kill off a bunch of civilians to save herself.

 

But you are touching upon the reality that 'evil' companions, such as Aria, are largely a joke. They have to be, because committing genuinely evil acts instead of merely suggesting them would enrage players. Whereas good characters committing acts of good would usually only make players roll their eyes at worst.

And determined this definition exactly? I wasn't aware such a thing was codified at any point. The nearest consensus for a villain I can gather from multiple sources is someone who instigates conflict or tries to push evil out of some misguided philosophical conclusion.

 

Aria's but amoral that doesn't make her a villain. Her demands to kill civilians area result of that being the fastest way to get out of a trap. A real villain would do it just for the sake of killing civilians. Aria's indifferent to how she gets what she wants so long as she does.

[Majestic Jazz]

I want a villain who is sympathetic. Such that we can understand and ideally identify with his motives.

 

Wont happen under Bioware's watch. They are too into the black and white villian, the "I want to destroy the world/universe hahaha!!!" type villian. You know, the cartoon type of villian. 

 

Like someone pointed out, the Villian(s) of KOTOR 2 were deeper than anything that Bioware can ever imagine.

 

 

I want a villain that I can look at and say, "You know what, he/she does have a point...." and sort of actually make me conflicted in whether or not I should see this person as an antagonist or not.

[Ahriman]

Aria's but amoral that doesn't make her a villain. Her demands to kill civilians area result of that being the fastest way to get out of a trap. A real villain would do it just for the sake of killing civilians. Aria's indifferent to how she gets what she wants so long as she does.

Then real villain doesn't exist by your definition. By more traditional view, killing anyone in order to succeed is exactly what villain is.

[dragonflight288]

And determined this definition exactly? I wasn't aware such a thing was codified at any point. The nearest consensus for a villain I can gather from multiple sources is someone who instigates conflict or tries to push evil out of some misguided philosophical conclusion.

 

Aria's but amoral that doesn't make her a villain. Her demands to kill civilians area result of that being the fastest way to get out of a trap. A real villain would do it just for the sake of killing civilians. Aria's indifferent to how she gets what she wants so long as she does.

 

Literary tradition. 

 

Antagonists are people who get in the way of the protagonists goals, but the protagonist may very well be the villain in the setting. An antagonist doesn't even need to be a person. It could be something as simple as bad weather shipwrecking Odysseus, well that was Posiedon with the Greek mythos, but you get the idea.

 

The villain in the literary tradition is someone who is evil and does commit horrible acts. Their motivations will change, and they can and will hurt people, but the scale changes villain to villain. One villain may only threaten a small border-town while another may use the Death Star to blow up a planet.

 

Heck, there may be stories where there are no 'heroes' but the protagonist and antagonist are both villains.

[DeathScepter]

So...Richard? 

this thread is pure now

[dragonflight288]

Wont happen under Bioware's watch. They are too into the black and white villian, the "I want to destroy the world/universe hahaha!!!" type villian. You know, the cartoon type of villian. 

 

Like someone pointed out, the Villian(s) of KOTOR 2 were deeper than anything that Bioware can ever imagine.

 

 

I want a villain that I can look at and say, "You know what, he/she does have a point...." and sort of actually make me conflicted in whether or not I should see this person as an antagonist or not.

 

....uhem.

 

Jade Empire. You spend most of the game liking the villain, until the large plot twist, and even then you may respect him.

 

And I never agreed with Darth Traya in KOTOR 2, or even thought she had a point in why she wants to achieve her ultimate goal, couldn't see any logic behind it, although I could see a lot of logic in the suggestion made throughout the game. 

[Jester]

Like someone pointed out, the Villian(s) of KOTOR 2 were deeper than anything that Bioware can ever imagine.

Kreia is still the best villain ever created in a video game for me.

Mainly because conversations with her are riddiculously deep, especially when you roll a darksider. She alone made the Star Wars EU so much more than anything we saw in movies. 

 

BioWare was close at times though. Irenicus? Loghain?

They weren't close to Kreia (due to incredible amount of dialogue you can have with her, especially when you download Cut Content mod), but better than two others from the Sith Triumvirate. 

 

 

And I never agreed with Darth Traya in KOTOR 2, or even thought she had a point in why she wants to achieve her ultimate goal, couldn't see any logic behind it, although I could see a lot of logic in the suggestion made throughout the game. 

 

She wanted to get rid of the Force, because she saw it as a sentient being, twisting people to it's own ends.

And she was right about that. In Star Wars universe, the main reason for all conflicts, or tragedies is the Force. Her own pupils, Nihilus and Sion were both destroyed (in spirit) by the Force. Nihilus was turned into an embodiment of hunger, without his own will, a slave to his own power and a blight on the galaxy. Sion was twisted by his pain and hatred, unable to die and forced to suffer. 

 

On the other hand, she herself was a slave to the Force, becuase without it she wouldn't be able to achieve her own goals (and she hated that perhaps most of all). That's why she disapproves every time, the Exiled Jedi complains about being cut away from the Force (she saw that as a blessing), she chastizes you every time, when you use the Force Persuasion (and yet approves every time you use regular persuasion - that's because she thinks that the Force is in fact limiting your mind and true capabilities, because you use it as a crutch). She does not consider herself neither a Jedi, not a Sith - she obviously is closer to the Dark Side, but sees that the Sith are enslaved by the Force, instead of being liberated by it. 

 

She was first disappointed by the Jedi Order, when they didn't react to the Mandalorian threat. Then, she fell to the Dark Side and joined the Sith - only to be disappointed (and betrayed) again, when her own pupils became slaves to the Dark Side. 

That's probably why she admired Revan so much (Revan never truly gave into either side of the Force, he served himself, and not the Sith, or the Jedi, or the Force). And the Exiled Jedi - in the final conversation, if you follow the Dark Side, she says you never were a true Sith (because a 'true' Sith is a slave to the Dark Side, like Nihilus, Sion, Malak... or from actual canon, Vader and arguably Sidious and Tyrannus).

[SNascimento]

....uhem.

 

Jade Empire. You spend most of the game liking the villain, until the large plot twist, and even then you may respect him.

 

And I never agreed with Darth Traya in KOTOR 2, or even thought she had a point in why she wants to achieve her ultimate goal, couldn't see any logic behind it, although I could see a lot of logic in the suggestion made throughout the game. 

Yeah, Master Li is pretty much exactly what the other post asked for. You can even

Spoiler

agree with him and let him win

He also say a lot of cool things: "Physical barriers are no match for those we place on our own minds"

[Little Princess Peach]

DAI had a villain?  I thought we were fighting injustice, or mental health problems...or was it tooth decay?  I forget. 

there was a bad guy in the game his name dlc

 

I want a villain that can give you the creeps someone that creeps you out so much that you are to afraid to fight the final battle, someone that has  an intresting back story  a villain that never backs down a true evil villain that is not afraid to kill people with out the use of minions someone that gets high on seeing people suffer we need a bad guy not a dimwit that wants to either detroy or take over something we need someone truly terrifying someone that we can respect and fear

[WildOrchid]

Aria's but amoral that doesn't make her a villain. Her demands to kill civilians area result of that being the fastest way to get out of a trap. A real villain would do it just for the sake of killing civilians. Aria's indifferent to how she gets what she wants so long as she does.

 

The difference is though, Aria did seem to not liking killing off civilians but she also did say there was no other way. The civilians would still die in one way or another.

[Ashevajak]

Conrad Verner for final boss of Andromeda.

[Larry-3]

Darth Sidious is a perfect example of horrible villian. He destroyed a government, almost made the Jedi extinct, created an evil Galactic Empire that subjugated worlds, ordered his minions to kill anyone who spoke against the goverment, took away people's right, used tax payer money for his own benefit, ordered the construction of space station that can destroy worlds... twice, and... well I could go on.

[Fantastic Fantasy]

Villians who are 'good guy' with 'good intentions' are almost universally characters who take really, really stupid actions to try solve problems.

 

Unfortunately that's how they are usually written. But when done well they can be some of the best villains, as they show how the world isn't so black and white.

TIM could have been that villain, but we know how that went.... 

 

But the real question is whether the Mass Effect writers could do such a villain justice. And unfortunately, I am not so sure they can.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Wont happen under Bioware's watch. They are too into the black and white villian, the "I want to destroy the world/universe hahaha!!!" type villian. You know, the cartoon type of villian.

Like someone pointed out, the Villian(s) of KOTOR 2 were deeper than anything that Bioware can ever imagine.

I never understood KotOR2's plot. Probably because I was so distracted by how annoying it was not to know who the protagonist was.

I want a villain that I can look at and say, "You know what, he/she does have a point...." and sort of actually make me conflicted in whether or not I should see this person as an antagonist or not.

Exactly.

I maintain that the labels are largely arbitrary anyway, so I'd like a narrative that draws attention the moral ambiguity implied by that.

[Sylvius the Mad]

It is my opinion that the greatest CRPG ever made was Ultima IV, and that game didn't have a physical antagonist at all. The antagonist in U4 was moral decay.

That was clever. Why won't anyone do something like that now?

[Catastrophy]

Indoctrinated Liara

[Lady Artifice]

First of all, you need to distinguish between antagonists and villains. Villians can be supporting characters or protagonists.

 

Secondly, Aria was a terrible villain. So was Petrosky or whatever his name is.

 

Thirdly, a villain should actually be taking some sort of evil action throughout the story. A 'twist' doesn't negate those actions, and most 'twists' of the sort turn out to be pretty dumb anyways. 
 

 

Why exactly do you think Petrovski is so terrible?