147 réponses à ce sujet

[BabyPuncher]

And since works of fiction require money to make, stories need to sell. To sell, audiences have to want the product. And as you said, the audience is primarily straight.

 

If I saw a romance indie game that looked interesting for a few dollars, I might purchase it. But if it was clearly about a gay male couple, I would almost certainly pass it over. Because I have limited time and money and don't find gay male romance compelling. Because I don't want it.

 

Surely I have that right?

 

And if enough people think like me - which they do, or we wouldn't be having this conversation - that game doesn't sell. And that company maybe goes out of business.

 

Whatever you think should be present in fiction - audiences have to want it. Or it doesn't work. Simple as that.

[London]

This may very well be true, but then it naturally follows that game developers purposely decide that their leads must be straight to sell copies. And BioWare can stop being accused of purposely including gay / diverse characters because it's just hypocritical. We very well may never see a gay male lead in a AAA video game, and the closest we will get is games where you create your own character. Or games with choices that allow for straight white men to avoid all gay content. I won't get a gay Uncharted, with AAA action and a scripted gay romance love triangle. And I guess if you are privileged, and get to enjoy the status quo where nearly every AAA game is tailored to your demographic, you won't understand why this makes me sad.

But this is confusing issues, and flies in the face of arguments I've seen made today that sexuality doesn't matter at all, that it's not a big deal when a character is gay, or that game content would not change if characters had no sexuality at all but were just well written. Sexuality changes everything, and I can't think of any story-based game with a set protagonist that would be entirely the same in content if this sexuality was removed or changed. Or if what you wrote is true, then if the sexuality is gay, then the game should not be made at all.

[9TailsFox]

And since works of fiction require money to make, stories need to sell. To sell, audiences have to want the product. And as you said, the audience is primarily straight.

 

If I saw a romance indie game that looked interesting for a few dollars, I might purchase it. But if it was clearly about a gay male couple, I would almost certainly pass it over. Because I have limited time and money and don't find gay male romance compelling. Because I don't want it.

 

Surely I have that right?

 

And if enough people think like me - which they do, or we wouldn't be having this conversation - that game doesn't sell. And that company maybe goes out of business.

 

Whatever you think should be present in fiction - audiences have to want it. Or it doesn't work. Simple as that.

Exactly this. And theoretically it's sound nice to be inclusive and cater to everyone. But practically it's impossible this is biggest DA:I problem it try to be for everyone and in process become for nobody. Yes I like parts of it but that's it just parts. From they want people who like tactical slow combat and people who like fast hack and slash combat at the same time. They want make game to appeal for both genders well this problem solved DA:I now focus on female, yes it's bad for me but it's good for female. And open world well at least I asked more then one dungeon not huge empty level. Bioware want exploration and open world and tight focused story at the same time. I want more female character like Morrigan and Isabela (sexy Ice queen romance witch become "good" after fall in love") other people don't care same as I don't care for Cullen I don't even want him in game.

[London]

What you wrote doesn't support his argument about creating a product that is financially viable.

DAI sold quite well, and partially because they do not only appeal to straight men. Cullen has the most active companion thread in the forums, followed by Solas. Two characters that appeal to women. Having content for women, and not just men, increased sales and added to the success of the game.

More inclusivity resulted in more sales, not less.

[9TailsFox]

What you wrote doesn't support his argument about creating a product that is financially viable.

DAI sold quite well, and partially because they do not only appeal to straight men. Cullen has the most active companion thread in the forums, followed by Solas. Two characters that appeal to women. Having content for women, and not just men, increased sales and added to the success of the game.

I assume you referring to me.

1)DA:I sold because it's Dragon age and more money spent on marketing then actually making game. I play 2 games I invested to much just skip and I literary have no selection of games like DA.

2)"Having content for women, and not just men, increased sales and added to the success of the game." I fully agree I told this I may not like sum stuff they do but others and it's fine for them. I am sorry I probably did not make myself clear.

3)DA:I inquisition don't have content witch appeal for man. Yes I know Cass is beautiful bla bla. beauty is subjective bla bla. But even female character who romanceable by male are made to appeal for female players. I don't say it's bad. I just say it's changed a lot from previous games I like this game much less yes demographic focus is not main reason not even close, but it's still small part.

 

It's like Supergil TV series you want to make strong female character and you make this teen drama. Military general telling "second" strongest being on planet to make him a coffey, come on who writing this    Ok sorry for ranting my point it's definitely not for me. And it's not bad other people will like it. And I still watch it just because it's have Supergirl and it's DC and it's same universe as Flash and Arrow.

[Dai Grepher]

It's extremely subtle in Sera's case, and, while Sera had her faults, her sexuality did not work against her even slightly (In fact, I was even fond of the "we both like women" scene, because it was done very refreshingly) 

 

Dorian's sub-plot was just cliche after cliche. And from all these press junkets, I'm not sure BioWARE will learn the lesson.

 

Agreed, her sexuality didn't enter into it. She was a dynamic character without it. Though, I didn't get the "we both like women" thing because my Inquisitor was romancing Cassandra, and Sera felt like a daughter to him. So I'm sure her romance only adds to her character. It isn't the bulk of it.

 

Yeah, Dorian was kind of a cliché. In my Hero of Ferelden playthrough, my Cousland king had to go after the mages because 1. Anora granted them sanctuary in Redcliffe, which means it was partly his ruling too even if he was elsewhere when she made the ruling and thus his mess to clean up as well, and 2. Anora was on her way to Redcliffe, so he had to get there first so she wouldn't run into anything dangerous. In this playthrough I got to work (was stuck) with Dorian, and afterward I knew to be on the lookout for his personal quest. I have to say, about 80% of his character development is in that quest. So if you want to know who he is as a character, you have to pick up that quest. Other than that, like you wrote, mostly a cliché.

[Dai Grepher]

I mean some posters here couldn't even handle 2 sentences of dialogue from Anders attempting to initiate a s/s relationship let alone something like that.

 

Eh, I don't think Anders is a good example. Fans were already under the impression that Anders was straight because of his lines in Awakening. So seeing that drastic change really took them by surprise. I think they felt that Anders' character had been rewritten for some real world agenda.

[Dai Grepher]

What you wrote doesn't support his argument about creating a product that is financially viable.

DAI sold quite well, and partially because they do not only appeal to straight men. Cullen has the most active companion thread in the forums, followed by Solas. Two characters that appeal to women. Having content for women, and not just men, increased sales and added to the success of the game.

More inclusivity resulted in more sales, not less.

 

I think it sold well mainly because it appealed to men who are straight. Forum threads aren't exactly the best gauge for these things. After all, females can gush endlessly about their favorite characters, while guys say their piece and are done with it. I think a better gauge is BioWare actual meta data about how many players chose to play as a male Inquisitor and how many chose to romance someone of the opposite sex. I think a large majority were males Inquisitors, like 75% if I recall, and most players also romanced Cassandra.

 

Yes, having content for women increased sales, but women are over half the population, and reduce that to the number of female gamers. Still a sizable portion. LGBTs are 5% of the population by comparison, and now reduce that number to those who are also gamers. Also, the female content was in conjunction with stuff straight guys liked. And I think our argument has always been that if there is to be homosexual content, then it should exist in conjunction with stuff that straight people want, not at the expense of it. And again, I think Inquisition succeeded in this. But again, I still think Dorian's character was 80% personal quest which I didn't get in my first playthrough. So to me he was a meh character.

[dsl08002]

I have only one problem and that is how they presented and approach it in the game itself.

[daveliam]

If you think Dorian's quest was 'about being gay', then you either weren't paying attention or you didn't understand it.  Being gay was part of it.  But that's it.

 

There's a ridiculous catch-22 that happens with gay characters.  If the character is gay and it's mentioned prominently, then suddenly "It's an agenda!  Being shoved in our faces!!!". If the character is gay and it's barely mentioned, then suddenly, "They were gay for no good reason!!  It must be the agenda!!!  Being shoved in our faces!!!!". I've seen a ton of complaints about Sera and how her sexuality was handled, so while you might like that better, others don't.  They simply can't win.

 

Look, there are gay people who play games.  Bioware creates content for all players.  You are just going to have to deal with gay content.  If that means that you can't appreciate a character, then so be it.  There have been plenty of characters that I can't appreciate because I just don't 'get them'.  It's not the end of the world.  Nothing was 'at the expense of straight' players.

 

What ever happened to "Bioware should stop listening to demands and just create the games that they want to"?  Isn't that exactly what they did, yet now people are telling them to do something else?

[Lazarillo]

There's a ridiculous catch-22 that happens with gay characters.  If the character is gay and it's mentioned prominently, then suddenly "It's an agenda!  Being shoved in our faces!!!". If the character is gay and it's barely mentioned, then suddenly, "They were gay for no good reason!!  It must be the agenda!!!  Being shoved in our faces!!!!". I've seen a ton of complaints about Sera and how her sexuality was handled, so while you might like that better, others don't.  They simply can't win.

 

 

I agree, it's a fine line to tread.  To be honest, I think Dorian's character walks that line pretty well, though (it's the article itself that bothers me, rather than the character, if I didn't make that clear).  But just because that balance is hard to strike, doesn't mean writers shouldn't try to strike it, IMO.  And in neither case do I really think it's about having an "agenda", but more about setting it up in a way that doesn't break immersion, but does allow us to really get a whole view of the characters.

 

And maybe I'm just expecting the moon, but I think we've had enough evidence in the past that BW writers are capable of delivering it on a fairly consistent basis.

[daveliam]

I don't have an issue with press around Dorian's sexuality because it is a milestone.  There's never been a gay male companion before.  There is definitely an audience for articles about this.  Now, I do think it got overblown a bit.  People picked up on the incorrect headline (he's not the first gay character) and ran with it; but that's more about the press than anything Bioware, or even Gaider, himself did.  I said it in the other thread about this:  If this is a trend that continues going forward, then I agree that it's weird and not necessary.  But I don't see an issue in this case because it's discussing a fairly significant first in the eyes of many players.  Now, you can debate whether it's actually significant or not, but that's subjective.  Fact is that there are people who are interested in reading about this because it's a first for Bioware.  I think that's the genesis of the article and initial interest in it.

[London]

Eh, I don't think Anders is a good example. Fans were already under the impression that Anders was straight because of his lines in Awakening. So seeing that drastic change really took them by surprise. I think they felt that Anders' character had been rewritten for some real world agenda.

Again, this may be true for some people - but let's not pretend that this is really the reason many complained here, or that those who did even played Awakenings. Most didn't mention this at all, or if they did, only thrown in to support their real issue.

[London]

In regards to the headline of the IGN article, it doesn't have a headline saying he is the first gay character. It states that he is a breakout gay character.

Breakout doesn't mean first. It more relates to a milestone. Like for an actor - a breakout role isn't the first movie role they had - it's the role that put them on the map and got their career really going. And Dorian is a milestone for being the first fully gay companion, and also a milestone that many found his character to be well-liked despite being gay.

I guess there probably were some other headlines that would have been blatantly wrong, but most clearly distinguished that this referred to the first fully gay companion, and were not claiming it was the first gay character.

Edit: Just googled "Dorian fully gay" and most headlines specify that it's the first "male companion" or "male character" or have content referring only to the Dragon Age franchise and not BioWare as a whole, or write that it's the first David Gaider wrote, which still may be technically true as I don't believe he wrote Steve Cortez.

[Cobra's_back]

What you wrote doesn't support his argument about creating a product that is financially viable.

DAI sold quite well, and partially because they do not only appeal to straight men. Cullen has the most active companion thread in the forums, followed by Solas. Two characters that appeal to women. Having content for women, and not just men, increased sales and added to the success of the game.

More inclusivity resulted in more sales, not less.

 

I would go one step further. They know some male customers like to play females. Sera had a dual role. She pleases the guys that want to see two women become sexually active, and Sera supports female choices. Remember some of the threads where guys wanted to see more skin. Sera's romance gives them what they want. Females are a growing market, but they were not the majority or equal back when DAO was released. Your resistance is more likely coming from male legacy players.

 

Your comment: "More inclusivity resulted in more sales, not less" 

 

Ans: Because the market was mostly male but changing. To be honest a % of them seem underage. That group seems even more intolerant or more vocal. It is just my opinion, but Bioware will try to keep the DAO customer base which probably had higher % male, and increase sales to females. 

 

As far as I'm concern Dorian was an excellent character.

[Dai Grepher]

If you think Dorian's quest was 'about being gay', then you either weren't paying attention or you didn't understand it.  Being gay was part of it.  But that's it.

 

There's a ridiculous catch-22 that happens with gay characters.  If the character is gay and it's mentioned prominently, then suddenly "It's an agenda!  Being shoved in our faces!!!". If the character is gay and it's barely mentioned, then suddenly, "They were gay for no good reason!!  It must be the agenda!!!  Being shoved in our faces!!!!". I've seen a ton of complaints about Sera and how her sexuality was handled, so while you might like that better, others don't.  They simply can't win.

 

Look, there are gay people who play games.  Bioware creates content for all players.  You are just going to have to deal with gay content.  If that means that you can't appreciate a character, then so be it.  There have been plenty of characters that I can't appreciate because I just don't 'get them'.  It's not the end of the world.  Nothing was 'at the expense of straight' players.

 

What ever happened to "Bioware should stop listening to demands and just create the games that they want to"?  Isn't that exactly what they did, yet now people are telling them to do something else?

 

I know you weren't necessarily addressing me with this post, but personally I understood everything in Dorian's quest and what it was about. But, his being homosexual is first learned in that quest. So if we're talking about that aspect of his character then this is Exhibit A. Like I wrote, if you missed this quest like I did, you wouldn't even have in-game knowledge that Dorian was homosexual at all. So not only is this the primary example, it's almost the one and only example. So yes, the quest was about other things, but 99% of Dorian's homosexuality was in that quest. One of the only other ways to discover it would be to flirt with him as a male. And if you flirt with him as a female and miss his quest, you might go on thinking he was straight but ultimately not interested.
 

I also disagree with the rest of your post. I don't think there is a catch-22 with these characters. As I wrote, Sera's character handled the issue just fine. The problem with Dorian is that 80% of his involvement and relevance to the story is in his personal quest, which is easily missed.

 

Take Cole by comparison. In my first playthrough I seemed to miss his scene with the healer and making her forget or not. It didn't take that much away from his character or relevance though. Yes I did Champions of the Just, but even leaving that aside and even removing Cole's personal quest, Cole would still be relevant to the storyline based on his ability to sense spiritual/emotional things and feel past events. If Dorian had supplied some kind of insight to various parts of the game, or had special interactions with certain characters like Solas had, then Dorian wouldn't be so bland. There was the perfect opportunity to do this too, since he was Tevinter and the game had us visit various Tevinter ruins. Would have been cool if he could offer translations for glyphs or explanations for various magical artifacts. Like that one in the Hissing Wastes where you take it but nothing happens. He infiltrated the Venatori. Would have been great if he could have offered intel on their leaders in the areas that featured them. But instead 80% of his character was defined by an easily missed personal quest.

[Dai Grepher]

Again, this may be true for some people - but let's not pretend that this is really the reason many complained here, or that those who did even played Awakenings. Most didn't mention this at all, or if they did, only thrown in to support their real issue.

 

Another reason I heard was that turning him down makes him mad at you, when it shouldn't.
 

[9TailsFox]

Another reason I heard was that turning him down makes him mad at you, when it shouldn't.
 

Are you for real. Yes it feels so good to be rejected. Just wonderful. 

[Dai Grepher]

Are you for real. Yes it feels so good to be rejected. Just wonderful. 

 

Didn't write that it felt good. Just wrote that it shouldn't make you mad at the person. Also, we're talking about Anders flirting with a male and that male simply not being attracted to males. So, yeah.
 

[Mikka-chan]

Um, if you flirt with someone, and they turn you down for whatever reason (be it because they're committed, not interested in your gender, not interested in you...), it sucks.  Especially if you really are interested in them, it can sort of feel like a downer, and probably will make you a bit upset.  It makes perfect sense for Anders to be upset if you turn him down, almost especially because he's so emotional.

 

 

You know, the weird thing is, I've been going through the sound dumps.  And honestly?  Sera does mention finding woman attractive more often then Dorian does.  Dorian, it comes up in three places: in his quest with his dad, which is not about him being gay (it's about him refusing to enter an arranged marriage with a woman he doesn't like and breed for the sake of a bloodline he doesn't like and his hurt over his father's hypocrisy and anger about blood magic), in his romance with Iron Bull, and in his romance with the male Inquisitor (oh, and if you choose to ask him if he slept with Felix- but you can ask Leianna if she slept with Justina, too, which is just as ridiculous).  He doesn't spend time hitting on guys (notice that in both his romance with the inquisitor and Iron Bull, he is the one persued- he doesn't make any first moves, and in paticular with Iron Bull, takes a while to take him seriously).  He doesn't spend time talking about guys.  Most of what he talks about is Tevinter and magic.  I mean, listen to the banters: if he's not in a relationship, his sexualty doesn't seem to come up once as far as I can tell.  The time spent on his character's sexualty is about as much spent on any character's sexualty.  If he WAS straight- don't you think he would have still said screw that to the arranged marriage and breeding with a woman he hates and ran?  His quest would have been the exact same, and his father still likely would have tried to use blood magic to make him do his duties.  It's not a quest about being gay, it's a quest about where your freedoms and rights stand on the scale against family duty vs BLOOOD MAAAGIIIIC.

 

Sera on the other hand can hit on your Qunari female pretty squarely (and if you're not a Qunari female, mentions she'd like to meet one if you ask about Iron Bull because 'woof'), remarks on Lei, Cass and Celene's attractiveness, seems to sort of be inclined towards Dagna as well (if the giving a nickname and plotting awesomeness means anything) and talks about seducing noblemen only to tell them she likes their wife better (...which in her mind, is imitating Josie, in a banter that amuses me terribly).

[daveliam]

Didn't write that it felt good. Just wrote that it shouldn't make you mad at the person. Also, we're talking about Anders flirting with a male and that male simply not being attracted to males. So, yeah.

But that is perfectly in line with Vengeance possessed Anders' character. He's emotional. He's moody. He lashes out at you. He lets his emotions trump his logic. It would be MORE jarring if moody, emotional Anders was like, 'Oh, okay, cool. Whatever.' when you reject him in an emotionally vulnerable moment.

[daveliam]

Also, how is Sera even remotely plot relevant? She's the LEAST plot relevant companion. She's totally plot adjacent at best and her sexuality can also be completely missed, so.......how was it 'done better' with her?

[9TailsFox]

Also, how is Sera even remotely plot relevant? She's the LEAST plot relevant companion. She's totally plot adjacent at best and her sexuality can also be completely missed, so.......how was it 'done better' with her?

Her story arc don't focus on her sexuality at all. Same as Cass or any other character.

[daveliam]

Her story arc don't focus on her sexuality at all. Same as Cass or any other character.

Vivienne's does. She's dealing with her opposite sex lover's illness. Why don't people criticize her story for focusing on her sexuality? Her being straight is about as important as Dorian's being gay. As in: neither quest would have happened if they weren't those sexual orientations but that it isn't central to the plot of the quest.

ETA: Even better, Aveline's personal quest is almost 100% about her opposite sex attraction. Where are the critiques on her story?

[Wulfram]

I don't know if Vivienne's story would have been different if she was gay. She could easily enough have been a Duchess' mistress.