147 réponses à ce sujet

[daveliam]

Dorian's could have been different too, but it wasn't.  You could have just changed it to him not being attracted to a girl in an arranged marriage or refusing to participate in said marriage because of wanting to marry for love.  You could even still have the blood magic aspect.  Outside of the "You wanted to change who I am" line, the story would have played out exactly the same. 

[TheJediSaint]

Also, how is Sera even remotely plot relevant? She's the LEAST plot relevant companion. She's totally plot adjacent at best and her sexuality can also be completely missed, so.......how was it 'done better' with her?

Well, she gets points for being a girl.   But I'm biased that way.

[daveliam]

 Ha!  At least you are honest about it! 

 

To be honest, though, I think that this is all it really comes down to.  Some people get twitchy around m/m stuff, which is their prerogative.  But they should recognize that it's a double standard to find f/f stuff fine but then try to find reasons to not include m/m stuff. 

[Cobra's_back]

Um, if you flirt with someone, and they turn you down for whatever reason (be it because they're committed, not interested in your gender, not interested in you...), it sucks.  Especially if you really are interested in them, it can sort of feel like a downer, and probably will make you a bit upset.  It makes perfect sense for Anders to be upset if you turn him down, almost especially because he's so emotional.

 

 

You know, the weird thing is, I've been going through the sound dumps.  And honestly?  Sera does mention finding woman attractive more often then Dorian does.  Dorian, it comes up in three places: in his quest with his dad, which is not about him being gay (it's about him refusing to enter an arranged marriage with a woman he doesn't like and breed for the sake of a bloodline he doesn't like and his hurt over his father's hypocrisy and anger about blood magic), in his romance with Iron Bull, and in his romance with the male Inquisitor (oh, and if you choose to ask him if he slept with Felix- but you can ask Leianna if she slept with Justina, too, which is just as ridiculous).  He doesn't spend time hitting on guys (notice that in both his romance with the inquisitor and Iron Bull, he is the one persued- he doesn't make any first moves, and in paticular with Iron Bull, takes a while to take him seriously).  He doesn't spend time talking about guys.  Most of what he talks about is Tevinter and magic.  I mean, listen to the banters: if he's not in a relationship, his sexualty doesn't seem to come up once as far as I can tell.  The time spent on his character's sexualty is about as much spent on any character's sexualty.  If he WAS straight- don't you think he would have still said screw that to the arranged marriage and breeding with a woman he hates and ran?  His quest would have been the exact same, and his father still likely would have tried to use blood magic to make him do his duties.  It's not a quest about being gay, it's a quest about where your freedoms and rights stand on the scale against family duty vs BLOOOD MAAAGIIIIC.

 

Sera on the other hand can hit on your Qunari female pretty squarely (and if you're not a Qunari female, mentions she'd like to meet one if you ask about Iron Bull because 'woof'), remarks on Lei, Cass and Celene's attractiveness, seems to sort of be inclined towards Dagna as well (if the giving a nickname and plotting awesomeness means anything) and talks about seducing noblemen only to tell them she likes their wife better (...which in her mind, is imitating Josie, in a banter that amuses me terribly).

 

You shouldn't disapprove if they never flirted with you. That is the key.

 

If a female never flirted with you, and you hit on her is it her fault? So you can be upset, and disapprove of her actions when she never flirted with you? Classic BS

 

If you get rejected for going after someone who never showed any interest, the blame is on you not that person. Humans are not toys. They have a right to say no, and that should be respected. I would be more upset with a person who said yes, but wasn't really interested.

[Dai Grepher]

Um, if you flirt with someone, and they turn you down for whatever reason (be it because they're committed, not interested in your gender, not interested in you...), it sucks.  Especially if you really are interested in them, it can sort of feel like a downer, and probably will make you a bit upset.  It makes perfect sense for Anders to be upset if you turn him down, almost especially because he's so emotional.

 

 

You know, the weird thing is, I've been going through the sound dumps.  And honestly?  Sera does mention finding woman attractive more often then Dorian does.  Dorian, it comes up in three places: in his quest with his dad, which is not about him being gay (it's about him refusing to enter an arranged marriage with a woman he doesn't like and breed for the sake of a bloodline he doesn't like and his hurt over his father's hypocrisy and anger about blood magic), in his romance with Iron Bull, and in his romance with the male Inquisitor (oh, and if you choose to ask him if he slept with Felix- but you can ask Leianna if she slept with Justina, too, which is just as ridiculous).  He doesn't spend time hitting on guys (notice that in both his romance with the inquisitor and Iron Bull, he is the one persued- he doesn't make any first moves, and in paticular with Iron Bull, takes a while to take him seriously).  He doesn't spend time talking about guys.  Most of what he talks about is Tevinter and magic.  I mean, listen to the banters: if he's not in a relationship, his sexualty doesn't seem to come up once as far as I can tell.  The time spent on his character's sexualty is about as much spent on any character's sexualty.  If he WAS straight- don't you think he would have still said screw that to the arranged marriage and breeding with a woman he hates and ran?  His quest would have been the exact same, and his father still likely would have tried to use blood magic to make him do his duties.  It's not a quest about being gay, it's a quest about where your freedoms and rights stand on the scale against family duty vs BLOOOD MAAAGIIIIC.

 

Sera on the other hand can hit on your Qunari female pretty squarely (and if you're not a Qunari female, mentions she'd like to meet one if you ask about Iron Bull because 'woof'), remarks on Lei, Cass and Celene's attractiveness, seems to sort of be inclined towards Dagna as well (if the giving a nickname and plotting awesomeness means anything) and talks about seducing noblemen only to tell them she likes their wife better (...which in her mind, is imitating Josie, in a banter that amuses me terribly).

 

Again, didn't write it wasn't a downer. Didn't write it would not make you upset. Wrote that it should not make you MAD AT the person.

 

The quest is not just about Dorian being homosexual, but it is about that too. And I think Halward planned to use blood magic because he saw Dorian's homosexuality as the root cause of the problem. If Dorian were heterosexual, he would have probably just got him drunk and had the woman lay with him. Nah, the blood magic was meant to combat the homosexuality. It would make no sense to use it to make him marry against his will or lay with women against his will. The simpler course of action is to make him want women.

 

I don't think anyone is mad that Sera makes suggestions and hints about her sexuality. In fact I think this is a point in her favor. She alludes to it without being overt. So she is present, but not loud. Dorian is either loud or completely silent.

[Dai Grepher]

But that is perfectly in line with Vengeance possessed Anders' character. He's emotional. He's moody. He lashes out at you. He lets his emotions trump his logic. It would be MORE jarring if moody, emotional Anders was like, 'Oh, okay, cool. Whatever.' when you reject him in an emotionally vulnerable moment.

 

Well whatever. People still found that version of Anders disturbing or off-putting. Which leads back to the original point. People were more upset at how Anders was changed, rather than the presence of same-sex attraction in the game.
 

[Dai Grepher]

Also, how is Sera even remotely plot relevant? She's the LEAST plot relevant companion. She's totally plot adjacent at best and her sexuality can also be completely missed, so.......how was it 'done better' with her?

 

I'd say The Iron Bull was the least plot relevant. I took him almost nowhere, and his 2H tree helped him none. His only real value is in the Chore Table missions with the Chargers and then later the Qunari.

 

Sera was relevant because she was a Red Jenny. She has a side mission during Halamshiral. She had a few Chore Table missions. She liked helping people, which is what the Inquisition is designed to do. She served the Inquisition by being its eyes and ears among those down at the "bottom". She assisted in outmaneuvering the nobility. Also, Jar of Bees.

 

Sera also had a lot to do with the faith aspect of the storyline. She didn't like elfy things, and she believed the Chantry stuff she was told as a little girl. She has opinions and thoughts on the world and what's after, but she was also an elf who showed some attunement with the Fade and magic, which unsettled her. She also carried that racial aspect about her, and offered a glimpse at what life was like in Denerim for her. She has conflicting views about race that she hasn't quite sorted out yet and as Inquisitor you can help her through that somewhat. Overall, Sera's role is to help the Inquisitor stay grounded and not get too big in the head.

[The Oracle]

"Dorian's either loud or completely silent"? Eh, sorry, but no. Dorian is pretty much entirely silent. He gets angry about his father wanting to change his sexuality, in one quest, in a few lines. He might get loud, but it's the raised, angry voice of indignation at someone using blood magic to change who you are. Other than that, his banter only mentions it when he's with the Iron Bull (of which he's reluctant to blab about the gory sex details to everyone around them) and once with Cole who dips into his memory of a guy he once fancied. 

 

Sera, if memory serves, talks about fancying you if your a female Qunari, talks twice with Iron Bull about fancying women (if female Qunari were hot and about a woman in one of the villages), same with Blackwall (something about finding some tavern wenches, giving advice about oral sex, talking about sleeping with a Noble's wife instead of him), talks to Cassandra about finding her hot, says similar about Leliana (though she's intimidated) and I know there are a number of others.

 

I'm pretty sure if Dorian spent even half as much time as Sera talking about who he fancies and sex, the outrage about his character would be far worse. It would be a "shoved in our faces all the time" outcry. Dorian, in my opinion, comes across as someone who has had to keep silent about his feelings for his entire life, and then when he is confronted with someone who betrayed and hurt him, it explodes out in backlash. After that, he goes back to being a pretty private person in terms of his sexuality. It's in keeping with his character and backstory.

[Cobra's_back]

Dorian's either loud or sompletely silent? Eh, soprry, but no. Dorian is pretty much intirely silent. He gets angry about his father wanting to change his sexuality, in one quest, in a few lines. He might get loud, but it's the raised, angry voice of indignation at someone using blood magic to change who you are. Other than that, his banter only mentions it when he';s with the Iron Bull (of which he's reluctant to blab about the gory sex details to everyone around them) and once with Cole who dips into his memory of a guy he once fancied. 

 

Sera, if memory serves, talks about fancying you if your a female Qunari, talks twice with Iron Bull about fancying women (if female Quanari were hot and about a woman in one of the villages), same with Blackwall (something about finding some tavern wenches, giving advice about oral sex, talking about sleeping with a Noble's wife instead of him), talks to Cassandra about finding her hot, says similar about Leliana (though she's intimidated) and I know there are a number of others.

 

I'm pretty sure if Dorian spent even half as much time as Sera talking about who he fancies and sex, the outrage about his character would be far worse. It would be a "shoved in our faces all the time" outcry. Dorian, in my opinion, comes across as someone whose had to keep silent about his feelings for his entire life, and then when he is confronted with someone who betrayed and hurt him, it explodes out in backlash. After that, he goes back to being a pretty private person in terms of his sexuality. It's in keeping with his character and backstory.

 

Big time. This is so much about guys liking Sera because she is part of their fantasy. Dorian is pretty silent but funny and great to be around. 

[Dai Grepher]

Vivienne's does. She's dealing with her opposite sex lover's illness. Why don't people criticize her story for focusing on her sexuality? Her being straight is about as important as Dorian's being gay. As in: neither quest would have happened if they weren't those sexual orientations but that it isn't central to the plot of the quest.

ETA: Even better, Aveline's personal quest is almost 100% about her opposite sex attraction. Where are the critiques on her story?

 

With Vivienne, you hunt down a rare beast and get its heart for a potion of mysterious use. Then later you are invited to watch Vivienne use it to try and heal a sick and decrepit old man, a loved one. With Dorian, you are roped into being an escort to a showing of the Pavus family's drama.

 

Vivienne's sexuality isn't brought up with this. Her association with Bastian is. And that association is relevant to the storyline regarding Vivienne's social status in Orlais. It provides further history. Dorian's case is one of sexual preference, as well as what his family expected of him. Also, his relationship with his father. Which is all well and good, but it has no relevance to the plot.

[AresKeith]

With Vivienne, you hunt down a rare beast and get its heart for a potion of mysterious use. Then later you are invited to watch Vivienne use it to try and heal a sick and decrepit old man, a loved one. With Dorian, you are roped into being an escort to a showing of the Pavus family's drama.

 

Vivienne's sexuality isn't brought up with this. Her association with Bastian is. And that association is relevant to the storyline regarding Vivienne's social status in Orlais. It provides further history. Dorian's case is one of sexual preference, as well as what his family expected of him. Also, his relationship with his father. Which is all well and good, but it has no relevance to the plot.

 

Neither does most of the personal quest of companions 

[Dai Grepher]

What I was referring to was how often Dorian brings it up depending on if you got his personal quest or not. If you did, his character shouts of his sexuality. If you didn't, then his character is silent regarding his sexuality. Compared to Sera who is present, but not loud. She lets subtle hints slip now and then.

[Legion of 1337]

This may very well be true, but then it naturally follows that game developers purposely decide that their leads must be straight to sell copies. And BioWare can stop being accused of purposely including gay / diverse characters because it's just hypocritical. We very well may never see a gay male lead in a AAA video game, and the closest we will get is games where you create your own character. Or games with choices that allow for straight white men to avoid all gay content. I won't get a gay Uncharted, with AAA action and a scripted gay romance love triangle. And I guess if you are privileged, and get to enjoy the status quo where nearly every AAA game is tailored to your demographic, you won't understand why this makes me sad.

But this is confusing issues, and flies in the face of arguments I've seen made today that sexuality doesn't matter at all, that it's not a big deal when a character is gay, or that game content would not change if characters had no sexuality at all but were just well written. Sexuality changes everything, and I can't think of any story-based game with a set protagonist that would be entirely the same in content if this sexuality was removed or changed. Or if what you wrote is true, then if the sexuality is gay, then the game should not be made at all.

I'm detecting racist undertones here.

[The Oracle]

What I was referring to was how often Dorian brings it up depending on if you got his personal quest or not. If you did, his character shouts of his sexuality. If you didn't, then his character is silent regarding his sexuality. Compared to Sera who is present, but not loud. She lets subtle hints slip now and then.

 

He only shouts about it for a few lines in his personal quest. After that, he'll only talk about it if you interact with him and question him on it specifically. Otherwise it's business as usual. Also, you are "strung along" but not by Dorian. You actually have to persuade Dorian to go speak to a "messenger" from his father. If you don't talk him into it, he doesn't want to go. Both of you have no idea his father is actually there. Both of you are led to believe that Dorian will just be getting a message from a third party. Then, even when you get there, Dorian wants to leave without speaking to his father and again, the confrontation only comes about because you encourage him to do it. He's literally backed into a corner by both you and his father, a situation he obviously doesn't want to be in and is uncomfortable with, and he lashes out with a few short lines. Then it's barely mentioned at all afterwards. Cole only speaks of the pain of losing respect for his father. The sexuality part never comes up outside of one or two questions you can specifically ask him. Dorian dialogues mainly consist of the evils of his homeworld and countrymen, his hope to help them, the uses of magic etc. His sexuality is barely mentioned, even when you actively pursue further information on it.

[Dai Grepher]

Neither does most of the personal quest of companions 

 

Cassandra: Whether or not the Seekers are reestablished. Possible influence as Divine.

 

Vivienne: The Inquisition's political influence among Orlesian nobility, and possibly who the Divine is and how she turns out.

 

Blackwall: Whether he remains with the Inquisition, becomes a Warden, or continues the lie. Also implications about the Inquisition's reputation in freeing him or working with him.

 

The Iron Bull: Whether the Chargers live or die. Whether there is an alliance with the Qunari or not. Whether The Iron Bull leaves the Qun or not.

 

Cole: Whether he becomes more spirit-like or human-like. Determines where he can be bound or becomes free of binding.

 

Solas: Consequences to be revealed in a later installment. Some mages live or die. Determines Solas' overall regard for the Inquisitor.

 

Varric: Find out more of the story of how Corypheus found the red lyrium.

 

Sera: Eh... whether she stays with the Inquisition or not?

 

Leliana: Possible Divine choice. Determines her personality, which could have an effect on the Hero's storyline.

 

Cullen: Determines his lyrium use or freedom from it. Also determines what the other templars do.

 

Josephine: Saves her mortal life.

 

Dorian: Determines whether he is on better terms with his dad or not. :\

 

Yeah.
 

[daveliam]

People are really going through some mental gymnastics here to make their point that Sera, who happens to be female, is somehow a better representation than Dorian, who happens to be male.  And we're supposed to be believe that it's totally not at all even a little bit about girl on girl just being something they like and guy on guy being something they don't, right?

[DuskWanderer]

I'm detecting racist undertones here.

It's fairly common among the SJW's. They like to pretend they aren't, but the truth is that they are offended the characters aren't like them. 

[daveliam]

The only real main plot relevant character questlines are:

 

Cassandra - Fate of the Seekers and Chantry (if Divine)

Varric - Corypheus back story

Blackwell - Sort of, but only in the fact that it could be tied up with the Wardens in a tangential way

Leliana - Related to Divine Justinian, who is plot relevant, and affects her personality which has major effects on her Divine plotline

Cullen - Affects Templar allegiance

 

These ones are not plot relevant:

 

Solas - barely has a personal quest; it's about a spirit who he once was friends with?  Meh.

Iron Bull - Fate of the Chargers, a minor group of side characters

Vivienne - Deals with her private personal matter completely non-related to the plot

Sera - Deals with her personal vendetta against a noble who is totally plot irrelevant

Dorian - Deals with his private personal matter completely non-related to the plot

Cole - Zero plot relevance directly; his plot relevance is all in his backstory pre-game

Josephine - Deals with her private personal matter completely non-related to the plot

[Dai Grepher]

He only shouts about it for a few lines in his personal quest. After that, he'll only talk about it if you interact with him and question him on it specifically. Otherwise it's business as usual. Also, you are "strung along" but not by Dorian. You actually have to persuade Dorian to go speak to a "messenger" from his father. If you don't talk him into it, he doesn't want to go. Both of you have no idea his father is actually there. Both of you are led to believe that Dorian will just be getting a message from a third party. Then, even when you get there, Dorian wants to leave without speaking to his father and again, the confrontation only comes about because you encourage him to do it. He's literally backed into a corner by both you and his father, a situation he obviously doesn't want to be in and is uncomfortable with, and he lashes out with a few short lines. Then it's barely mentioned at all afterwards. Cole only speaks of the pain of losing respect for his father. The sexuality part never comes up outside of one or two questions you can specifically ask him. Dorian dialogues mainly consist of the evils of his homeworld and countrymen, his hope to help them, the uses of magic etc. His sexuality is barely mentioned, even when you actively pursue further information on it.

 

You're basically reaffirming what I already wrote. I agree that 99% of his sexuality is contained in that one quest. So if you don't get that quest, you hardly have any reason to even suspect he is homosexual.
 

[Dai Grepher]

People are really going through some mental gymnastics here to make their point that Sera, who happens to be female, is somehow a better representation than Dorian, who happens to be male.  And we're supposed to be believe that it's totally not at all even a little bit about girl on girl just being something they like and guy on guy being something they don't, right?

 

Well, seeing as how I played a straight human male, and won't play a homosexual female, I can say for certain that it has nothing to do with "girl on girl".

 

Sera is a better representation for the reasons I stated. 99% of Dorian's homosexuality is relegated to his personal quest (unless you pursue a relationship with him, obviously). So if you don't get that quest, then he's not a representation at all really. Sera on the other hand drops subtle hints that give you the impression that she is into females, but she also has many other personality traits and serves other purposes in the game so that her sexuality is just a part of her, not the main theme. If you do Dorian's quest, then it's the main theme with him.
 

[The Oracle]

You start Vivienne's quest to get the Wyvern's heart because she asks you to and you don't know the details as she keeps them from you. It is, at the start, a favour for her. Any influence with the Orlesians you gain thereafter, is entirely by coincidence.

 

You start Dorian's because you are pleaded to by Mother Giselle and Dorian's family. It is a personal request, much the same as Vivienne's is, except that Dorian hides nothing from you and both you and Mother Giselle are the driving force.

 

You could equally say that Dorian's quest may extend your influence in Tevinter by having a highly respected and influential family there who are now either beholden to you for helping them reunite with their son, or a possible enemy due to your negative interference.

 

All there quests can be raised or devalued according to what opinion you want to project, but I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Dorian's a good companion, his sexuality is a very small part of his overall contribution or dialogue. I believe many people think it sticks out because they've made themselves hyper-aware to any mention of it. If there's mention of it, it's too much and shoved in our faces. If there's not, well that's worse, because "reasons". I'm not sure how any writer is meant to win against that.

 

[EDIT] Okay, I give up on this. I obviously can't persuade you from you opinion Gopher, as you seem determined to believe Dorian to only be one dimensional, even though basically none of his character outwardly changes whether you do his quest or not. His banters are all the same. To say that after his personal quest his only feature is his being gay, when ALL his banter with other characters and 99% of his dialogue is exactly the same, just makes absolutely no sense. You've obviously got your mind made up that Dorian is only about his sexuality and Sera's constant remarks about her own sexuality is "subtle". Have the game as you will. I'll continue to enjoy Dorian's character for what it's represented. Someone who loves his country and wants to help it change for the better,

[DuskWanderer]

You start Vivienne's quest to get the Wyvern's heart because she asks you to and you don't know the details as she keeps them from you. It is, at the start, a favour for her. Any influence with the Orlesians you gain thereafter, is entirely by coincidence.

 

You start Dorian's because you are pleaded to by Mother Giselle and Dorian's family. It is a personal request, much the same as Vivienne's is, except that Dorian hides nothing from you and both you and Mother Giselle are the driving force.

 

You could equally say that Dorian's quest may extend your influence in Tevinter by having a highly respected and influential family there who are now either beholden to you for helping them reunite with their son, or a possible enemy due to your negative interference.

 

All there quests can be raised or devalued according to what opinion you want to project, but I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Dorian's a good companion, his sexuality is a very small part of his overall contribution or dialogue. I believe many people think it sticks out because they've made themselves hyper-aware to any mention of it. If there's mention of it, it's too much and shoved in our faces. If there's not, well that's worse, because "reasons". I'm not sure how any writer is meant to win against that.

 

[EDIT] Okay, I give up on this. I obviously can't persuade you from you opinion Gopher, as you seem determined to believe Dorian to only be one dimensional, even though basically none of his character outwardly changes whether you do his quest or not. His banters are all the same. To say that after his personal quest his only feature is his being gay, when ALL his banter with other characters and 99% of his dialogue is exactly the same, just makes absolutely no sense. You've obviously got your mind made up that Dorian is only about his sexuality and Sera's constant remarks about her own sexuality is "subtle". Have the game as you will. I'll continue to enjoy Dorian's character for what it's represented. Someone who loves his country and wants to help it change for the better,

 

Dorian is one-dimensional. Particularly in comparison to BioWARE's characters as a whole. That's why I hate him. 

[Dai Grepher]

Yeah, I'm thinking you didn't actually read what I wrote.

 

Fine, Vivienne's quest starts in that way. That's my point. It starts as something decently adventurous. The final result is relevant to the Inquisition.

 

You might say that, but my impression is that Halward clumsily orchestrated that meeting. So if it goes bad, he'll just blame himself. If the Inquisitor proves helpful, Halward will most likely be happy about that. But he still won't be able to champion the Inquisition back in Tevinter.

 

It has to do with the relevance of each companion quest to the storyline or the Inquisition. Dorian's seems to be the only one that is about him alone, and in large part his sexual preference. Not doing the quest means you didn't miss out on anything important.

 

I didn't claim it was shoved in our faces. I wrote that 99% of it was loaded into that one, easily missed quest. Which means Dorian doesn't really succeed as BioWare's first openly homosexual companion because the quest that contains this content requires precise player actions in order to activate. Whereas the rest of his content deals with Tevinter and such.

 

Sera is an example of a win in that regard.

 

Again, you don't seem to have read my posts. I didn't write that Dorian was all about his sexuality. I wrote that way too much of it was loaded into that one quest that could easily be overlooked and never gone back to again. Thus the result would be that his sexuality would play next to no part whatsoever. In which case, he would be all about reforming Tevinter and proving himself, which is how he came off in my first playthough because I didn't get his personal quest.

[London]

It's fairly common among the SJW's. They like to pretend they aren't, but the truth is that they are offended the characters aren't like them.

I know I shouldn't reply to this trollishness, but I needed a good laugh this afternoon.

[London]

In my opinion a lot of the companion quests do become part of the plot. Not the main plot, but the plot of the game as a whole.

BioWare to me is often more than the run-of-the-mill save the world main quests we get, it's about the relationships the main character creates, and who those people are. It's probably why a lot of people don't just remember their Warden ending the blight, but remember their relationships with people like Morrigan and Leliana, and stil care about what those relationships look like I'm the present day (in the Dragon age timeline).

Note: please excuse typos and editing, my iPad often changes what I write as it sees fit.