147 réponses à ce sujet

[Dai Grepher]

Dorian's quest isn't about duty, it's about family and forgiveness and stuff. Also, Dorian knows who he is. There is nothing about identity there.

[daveliam]

Dorian's quest is all about duty (to family) and identity (being true to who you are versus being who your duty requires you to be).

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Dorian's quest isn't about duty, it's about family and forgiveness and stuff. Also, Dorian knows who he is. There is nothing about identity there.

 

I just want you to know this made me literally face palm in real life.

[WildOrchid]

Dorian's quest isn't about duty, it's about family and forgiveness and stuff. Also, Dorian knows who he is. There is nothing about identity there.

 

Talk about completely missing the point in Dorian's quest. Bravo.

[Dai Grepher]

So Dorian's quest was about duty... even though he rejects the concept of having a duty to marry and procreate. Got it.

[daveliam]

YES!  It is about duty.  A duty that he choses to reject.  It's not hard to understand.  Seriously, I don't understand why this is so hard for you to understand. 

[(Disgusted noise.)]

So Dorian's quest was about duty... even though he rejects the concept of having a duty to marry and procreate. Got it.

 

Wut.

 

A theme doesn't have to be embraced in order for it to still be the theme. The American Dream is a major theme of Death of a Salesman and it's critical of it. Rejection of the subject matter is far from uncommon in fiction.

 

To be honest, the more you reveal about your literary criticism skills, the less valid your opinions seem on this topic.

[Dai Grepher]

I don't care what my opinions seem like to anyone, the quest does not deal with duty. Halward might have wanted or might still have wanted Dorian to fulfill a duty to his family, but it is never raised in that context. What we see at that moment in time is basically the aftermath where Halward is just sorry for what he tried to do to Dorian. At that point he is only concerned for Dorian's safety and repairing the relationship. Again, family and forgiveness. We were LONG past the discussion of duty by that time. If the quest had been about duty then we would have had the option to talk to Dorian about it and argue the points of fulfilling that duty or rejecting it. But no, Dorian had made his choice a long time ago.

[Linkenski]

Dorian's (very) little arc was well-acted, honest but self-projecting and while that doesn't necessarily always mean it's bad it did make me feel ambivalent. It felt like an authentic little subplot from the POV of David Gaider but not from the POV of Dragon Age as a story IMO. It felt very pandering and like something that should've been cut. With videogames having game-times up to 100 hours where a lot of simple written text can serve for storytelling, you do have more freedom to diverge unto different paths and smaller subplots, but I still think ideally there should be central, core themes the writers stick to, and IMHO sexuality in DA:I was poorly handled and too unrelated to any part of the actual plot at hand.

 

Long story short. I felt Dorian's arc was too much just David Gaider using a character as a mouthpiece and as much as it matters to DG and his identity, it just seems petty and 1st world problem in the grand scheme of things. It's hard to buy any of the pressing matters at hand in the world of Dragon Age when the characters are struggling with the same issues modern people in the peaceful and (often) safe societies of the 21st century of RL.

 

PS: If "different" people such as gays, ethnics, black people, women etc. are being oppressed, pushed around, killed in the name of "justice" in a video game's world, that shouldn't necessarily mean it is misogynist, racist, homophobic or any of the sort when it could actually just be a writer's way of saying "this is how it is in this fictional world - no hard feelings, it's a way to highlight or contrast real life from my fiction in a way that might actually be promoting the successes of modern society compared to older times."

 

I find it so ironic that so many people are getting offended by gaming, movies, books, whatever, when those pieces of fiction depict controversial themes, because oftentimes these people miss the point or don't pay attention and realize this fiction is actually, and between the lines saying, "Look at how good modern society has become" rather than "I hate blackppl/women/homosexuals".

 

It's like people can't seperate viewpoints from characters or narrator within a piece of litterature from the writer's own principles or ideals and thoughts.

[In Exile]

So Dorian's quest was about duty... even though he rejects the concept of having a duty to marry and procreate. Got it.

Yeah, absolutely. It's about how "duty" is sometimes a completely awful concept. "Duties" aren't an absolute good. 

 

I don't care what my opinions seem like to anyone, the quest does not deal with duty. Halward might have wanted or might still have wanted Dorian to fulfill a duty to his family, but it is never raised in that context. What we see at that moment in time is basically the aftermath where Halward is just sorry for what he tried to do to Dorian. At that point he is only concerned for Dorian's safety and repairing the relationship. Again, family and forgiveness. We were LONG past the discussion of duty by that time. If the quest had been about duty then we would have had the option to talk to Dorian about it and argue the points of fulfilling that duty or rejecting it. But no, Dorian had made his choice a long time ago.

 

No, we don't. Just like how Cassandra's whole character is about faith, but we can't tell her to take her faith and go **** herself with it. In fact, most of DA:I is about faith, but we can never tell people to abandon their faith. 

 

Also - and get ready for this one, because it might blow you rmind - but story can have multiple themes, and be about multiple things. Dorian's story can be about duty as much as it can be about family, for example. Or it can be about "duty to your family", or - and get ready for this one, because it'll double blow your mind - the duty of your family to you. 

[daveliam]

Also - and get ready for this one, because it might blow you rmind - but story can have multiple themes, and be about multiple things. Dorian's story can be about duty as much as it can be about family, for example. Or it can be about "duty to your family", or - and get ready for this one, because it'll double blow your mind - the duty of your family to you. 

 

He can't handle a story even being about one theme, if the character is rejecting that theme.  How do you expect him to wrap his brain around a story having multiple themes?

[Sah291]

Forgiveness is a big theme in the game also..both giving and receiving. And so is duty...and the choices and mistakes people make as a consequence. A lot of Dorians story is about aftermath of a choice already made, but so it is in a lot of the other character plot lines too. It fits narratively and thematically.

As far as Sera goes. Her story may deal less her her sexuality, but it's still just as much about her grappling with her identity. Sera goes off into the other extreme, where she wants so much to be just thought of as a person first, she goes to great length rejecting things about herself and her heritage, etc. I don't see why one is better representation than the other, they are both good, and they show different perspectives.

I don't like forced political correctness or scrubbing dialogue to make it as neutral and inoffensive as possible. To be honest I prefer the days of DAO or DA2, where characters could be more passionate and make the first move on the PC. But sadly I don't think we'll see that again.

[In Exile]

He can't handle a story even being about one theme, if the character is rejecting that theme.  How do you expect him to wrap his brain around a story having multiple themes?

 

I just don't get how people think Dorian's sexuality dominates his story. It would be like saying that Pride and Prejudice is a story that's all about heterosexuality. I mean, it is, in the sense that it's about heterosexual people... but that's not the same thing as being about hetereosexuality. 

[Dai Grepher]

Yeah, absolutely. It's about how "duty" is sometimes a completely awful concept. "Duties" aren't an absolute good. 

 

 

No, we don't. Just like how Cassandra's whole character is about faith, but we can't tell her to take her faith and go **** herself with it. In fact, most of DA:I is about faith, but we can never tell people to abandon their faith. 

 

Also - and get ready for this one, because it might blow you rmind - but story can have multiple themes, and be about multiple things. Dorian's story can be about duty as much as it can be about family, for example. Or it can be about "duty to your family", or - and get ready for this one, because it'll double blow your mind - the duty of your family to you. 

 

No it isn't. Duty to family is a good thing. It's just that Dorian didn't want to do it. So it had nothing to do with saying duty was not always a good thing.

 

Do you even know what the conversation is here? You just agreed with me that no, we don't get to talk about Dorian's duty to his family, which is exactly why his personal quest isn't about duty. That's my point.

 

I know about multiple themes, I am arguing that it wasn't about duty.
 

[Andraste_Reborn]

No it isn't. Duty to family is a good thing. It's just that Dorian didn't want to do it. So it had nothing to do with saying duty was not always a good thing.

 

The duty Dorian rejects involves marrying a person he doesn't love and cannot ever be sexually attracted to. The story presents this as a bad thing to ask of someone. One of the reasons Dorian rejects it is that he's seen what fulfilling family duty did to his parents, who loathe each other.

[Sah291]

It isn't saying duty is a completely bad or good thing. It can be a bad thing. Like when something goes against your moral conscience but you do it anyway...because duty. It can be a good thing. Like when you feel a moral obligation to do something for another or take responsibility for a mistake. Dorian has a great sense of duty to his country. He's rebelling against his own society, but he still loves his country and feels a duty to try and reform and take responsibility for Corypheus. I like writing that makes the audience think, but doesn't spoon feed. There's nuance to Dorian's character and a lot going on thematically.

[vbibbi]

PS: If "different" people such as gays, ethnics, black people, women etc.

 

I feel like this could have been worded better...

[The Oracle]

Duty to family can be both good or bad, depending on what's asked. Arranged marriage is a very good example of a "duty" to one's family that is asked of, even today. It can be viewed as a good thing, if both sides are in agreeance and the people involved in the marriage are both of a legal age, happy to accept and have not be coerced and pressured into it. It can, on the flip side, be a very bad thing, where people, barely more than children can be forced into marriage with far older partners without a comprehension, let alone a say, in the decision.

[TheJediSaint]

Honestly, I thought Dorian's story was primarily about betrayal( by his father).

 

Duty was simply what motivated Halward to do what he did.

[In Exile]

Honestly, I thought Dorian's story was primarily about betrayal( by his father).

Duty was simply what motivated Halward to do what he did.

We consider actions betrayals because notionally they amount to breaching a duty of fidelity or trust we think people owe.

[daveliam]

Honestly, I thought Dorian's story was primarily about betrayal( by his father).

 

Duty was simply what motivated Halward to do what he did.

 

Betrayal is certainly a part of it.  Halward's perception that Dorian betrayed his duty to family.  Dorian's perception that Halward betrayed his trust and also his convictions against blood magic.

[HallaGoddess]

It's smarter to consider the reactions of women towards other women 'going at it' as you say.

 

And the reactions generally are reasonably good. Women generally are at worst, indifferent to lesbian content. They're not offended or disgusted by it. Whereas men absolutely are contemptuous of content of other men being gay.

 

That is absolutely untrue, spending most of my life attending an all girls school, I've had plenty of people express their disgust at the thought of two girls being romantically/sexually involved outside of making it a display to attract men. I've had rumors spread, I've heard giggled 'ewws' and the likes- in fact some find it amusing and I've had a classmate flash her genitalia at me in the change room and ask me if I liked that. Many females even have to expressly ask me 'um you don't like-like me do you?' solely because we are the same gender, as if I'm not a human being with preferences. All this because the fact that I was dating a girl somehow slipped out. I've had my crush on a girl waved in my face and her friends approach me like guard dogs, as if I'm incapable of controlling myself and I'll rip her clothes off at any moment. The girl in question would often tease me by mockingly wave at me then giggling with her friends.

 

The sad truth is, liking the same gender for girls is seen in this world as acceptable only if you're doing it to entertain a man, being lesbian is deemed OK only if you'll sleep with a man after. I'm sure society is slowly becoming more accepting which I'm absolutely whole-heartedly overjoyed about but it's still blatantly obvious especially in gamer world that many still find it unacceptable. 

 

I've had it slightly easier because I'm bisexual because everyone deems me going through a phase or using women as a tool to attract men ('fake bi') and therefore I've been given a lot of slack in terms of gossip and passive-aggressive teasing since after about a week or two they lost interest in me and focused on my girlfriend. (It was exhausting having people approach us and ask us about our sex lives and how we had sex as if that wasn't offensively personal)

 

Many of my friends who are lesbian have had to hide their sexuality until they graduated high-school. Because they see me being treated like a circus amusement and they know that they'll be given even more **** for having zero interest in men. 

 

I understand that men have it worse than us because while I've never met a violent homophobe who was female, men don't have the same luxury. I've had a gay friend attending an all boy's school and his classmates are horrific in their disdain for him. So I agree with you about the men part.

 

Basically f/f is treated as a fetish, m/m is treated as if the bowels of hell has opened up and you're now staring at the personification of wrongness and evil. 

 

_{On a side note: I was vastly disappointed in Sera because in comparison to Dorian, her sexuality was written as if they were more interested in pleasing the male audience than anything else. I had been looking forward to romancing her because she was the first lesbian in DA but her romance left a lot to be desired and in the end I couldn't do the romance more than once. Dorian however was superbly written, I genuinely adored him and it truly felt like whoever wrote him understood that being a homosexual male didn't mean being a flamboyant princess. I found that Dorian was written rather than as a stereotype, he was written as a human who happened to love men.} 

[Akrabra]

Just posting a link to an article posts a couple hours ago on IGN. I think this was an interesting read.

I don't agree with everything he said - but he makes a lot of good points on the state of the industry when it comes to diverse representation in gaming. I do think BioWare is the industry leader in this regard and one of the reasons I love them as a developer.

http://www.ign.com/a...mpaign=Blogroll

Hadn't seen this before, and wow that comment section. Makes me abit sad really. Good read though,