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[nightscrawl]

I don't quite get the reluctance to accept any moral commentary, which is what it seems like people who throw out the "after school special" remark are referring to. Hell, half of the sci-fi in existence contains utopian societies (like Star Trek) where problems like poverty and hunger have been eliminated, and humanity as a whole has moved on from discrimination. True, some of Star Treks morality plays were a bit heavy handed, but it actually does take a person who is black on the left side of his face saying "so-and-so is black on the right side" for it to bring home just how freaking absurd some of our actual crap is. Which is the whole point.
 
I've also seen it argued by some that they are annoyed that you (the player as the Inquisitor) can't express disgust, or side with Halward, or anything along those lines. And that is true, to a degree. But while the game doesn't really allow you to be a complete raging homophobe, neither does it force you to completely support Dorian in his struggle. You can be indifferent or just a jerk about it during the actual quest.
 
I'm glad they didn't include those options. They don't have to include an option for everyone. There have been many times throughout all three games where I dearly wished there was some other dialog option, but I had to pick the lesser of three evils, or pick the closest approximation. So I picked it and moved on.

[Dai Grepher]

But his story isn't about being gay.  It's about not living up to your family's expectations. 

 

Which are that he be heterosexual, marry, and have children.
 

[Dai Grepher]

Halward had a problem with Dorian not doing the arranged married which led to him trying to use blood magic

Dorian saw that as his father having a problem with his sexuality, which is understandable

 

You are calling Dorian stupid. I don't think he was stupid. He knew exactly what his father had a problem with, and he said as much.

[Dai Grepher]

If you think that then your not listening. The issue was not that he was gay, even if he was straight their would still be an issue. The issue is that he did not conform to his society. Because he did not want to be force into a marriage he did not want to be in and live the way he wanted to.

 

There would have been a tiny issue, one that would not cause Halward to consider bloodmagic. If Dorian had loved women, if Dorian had sex with women, Halward would have merely harped on him about finding a good one to marry and procreate with. He may have even told him he could continue to go out and have sex with women, but he wouldn't have turned to bloodmagic. The reason he turned to bloodmagic is because he was afraid of Dorian's homosexuality. He saw that as a problem that was preventing Dorian from ever considering being with a woman, let alone marrying her and siring an heir. So yes, it was 100% about Dorian's sexual preference, and that is what Halward plotted to change about Dorian. It was that which caused him to say, "Get out! You are no son of mine!", and it's what made him mean it.

[nightscrawl]

For reference...
 

I will also point out, since Dorian was mentioned, that Dorian's father did not have a problem with his homosexuality in and of itself.

His problem was that Dorian refused to do his duty as the heir of a proud Tevinter family. If Dorian had agreed to marry as intended, and kept his homosexuality as a private conceit, there would have been no conflict. The issue insofar as Tevinter society goes is not with homosexuality in and of itself, but with their insistence on a public standard for any and all members of the upper class -- no one does blood magic, no one is anything other than their perfect ideal, and the polite fiction must always be maintained. Appearances are everything, even if every single person understands that the truth behind closed doors is completely different.

tl;dr: It's not about Tevinter "suddenly being homophobic when the rest of Thedas isn't", it's about Tevinter society's preoccupation with appearances.

Take that as you will.

If Dorian had married and had children as he was supposed to, and had men on the side, it likely wouldn't have been an issue. Dorian didn't want that. He wants to be his whole self, which includes his homosexuality.

The one line after the tavern where Dorian says, "He [Halward] says we're alike. Too much pride I suppose," is rather ironic in that it is that very image of self, and refusal to hide, that is the reason Dorian butts his head against Tevinter (noble) society. Halward is not your typical magister either, having very specific ideas on power, how to maintain that power, and the use of it; blood magic is "the resort of the weak mind."
 
Dorian is partly what Halward made him, and he (Halward) honestly should not have expected anything less than stubbornness when it came to being forced into doing something that went against his core as a person. Not as a gay person. As a person.


[edit]
I'll add that some people are just rebellious non-conformists. It's a part of who they are, and they bristle at any form of control. Dorian has always been like that, from the time he was in the Circle as a boy, just as Anders was always like that since he was a boy. That is also a part of who he is and he would have rebelled either way.

Keep in mind too that Dorian never had a good example of marriage in his parents. They loath each other and I rather doubt they hid it from their son. Regardless of his sexuality, why should he want that in his life?

Modifié par nightscrawl, 14 juillet 2015 - 08:51 .

[Dai Grepher]

Not really. The issue would be there if he was straight. He still would of been shunned if he refused the arranged marriage straight or gay. The issue is not that he was gay but that he did not conform. And no the issue was not about getting him a better woman if he was straight. This was an arranged marriage made to make a powerful mage heir. Their would be no change of the woman.

 

The issue would be minimal. It would be a case of convincing Dorian to marry the woman and have kids with her, even if it meant seeing other women too on the side. It wouldn't have come to bloodmagic. Halward saw Dorian's sexuality as an obstacle and the cause of him refusing to marry and procreate. That was Halward's problem.

[Dai Grepher]

I'm glad they didn't include those options. They don't have to include an option for everyone.

 

Funny how "everyone" usually only defines those one disagrees with. Not saying a list of options should exist, but the basics should at least. Support, indifferent, oppose. Simple enough, yes?

[Dai Grepher]

For reference...


If Dorian had married and had children as he was supposed to, and had men on the side, it likely wouldn't have been an issue. Dorian didn't want that. He wants to be his whole self, which includes his homosexuality.

The one line after the tavern where Dorian says, "He [Halward] says we're alike. Too much pride I suppose," is rather ironic in that it is that very image of self, and refusal to hide, that is the reason Dorian butts his head against Tevinter (noble) society. Halward is not your typical magister either, having very specific ideas on power, how to maintain that power, and the use of it; blood magic is "the resort of the weak mind."
 
Dorian is partly what Halward made him, and he (Halward) honestly should not have expected anything less than stubbornness when it came to being forced into doing something that went against his core as a person. Not as a gay person. As a person.

 

David Gaider is wrong.

 

Maybe it wouldn't have been an issue in that case, but that's a hypothetical. What actually happened was Dorian did not want to marry and have kids at all because he preferred to be homosexual. And so that is what Halward had a problem with, Dorian's sexuality. That is what he plotted to change through bloodmagic.

 

I think you got Halward all wrong. He trained Dorian to be the best, and to honor the family. That's why Dorian always wanted to make him proud. Halward raised him to be a good boy and do as he was told. So when it came time to perpetuate the Pavus genes along with other strong genes, Dorian couldn't cut it because of his sexual preference. So Halward decided to give his son the "help" that he thought would have been proper.

[nightscrawl]

David Gaider is wrong.

This is just laughable. There is no point in replying to you ever again.

[Dai Grepher]

This is just laughable. There is no point in replying to you ever again.

 

Is that a promise?

[andy6915]

Is that a promise?

You did just declare yourself as a more official authority on the canon than the head writer.

[Andraste_Reborn]

David Gaider is wrong.

 

Uhuh.

 

I cannot help noticing that you seem to be addressing every recent post except the one from David Gaider.

[daveliam]

Well that's that, then.  When a poster is told by a dozen other posters that he's misunderstanding the point of a quest, including being told this by the writer of the story, and that poster responds by saying that everyone else is wrong, including the writer of the story, I think it's pretty clear that there's no where this conversation can go.  Clearly this particular poster has convinced himself that he, and only he, truly understands the point of that quest and there is nothing that will convince him otherwise, despite overwhelmingly strong arguments from everyone else.  For the record, it's clear that this poster has a very naïve and singular view that does not reflect the complexity of the story.  But I'm sure that this is lost on him as well......

[WildOrchid]

David Gaider is wrong.

 

Dorian's writer is.... wrong.

Okay.

I think i've seen it all for today.

[metalfenix]

David Gaider is wrong.

 

Now you know more than the very own DA series head writer.

 

BSN never cease to surprise me.

[Dai Grepher]

You did just declare yourself as a more official authority on the canon than the head writer.

 

I declare the canon game as a more official authority on the canon than the ex lead writer.

 

Dorian blatantly said in the game that his father disapproves of the fact that he prefers the company of men. Spelled out, as in sex.

 

So David Gaider can claim that Halward didn't care about Dorian being homosexual all he wants, but if David Gaider contradicts what is clearly stated in the game, then David Gaider is wrong.
 

[AresKeith]

You are calling Dorian stupid. I don't think he was stupid. He knew exactly what his father had a problem with, and he said as much.

Now you're putting words in my mouth just to keep your argument

David Gaider is wrong.

now I know you're just trolling because this is just laughable

[daveliam]

Dorian blatantly said in the game that his father disapproves of the fact that he prefers the company of men. Spelled out, as in sex.

 

You seem to have forgotten the line that he says, which totally changes the context of that statement.  Want to read it for yourself?

 

Dorian:  I prefer the company of men.  My father disapproves.

 

Inquisitor:  That's a big concern in Tevinter, then?

 

Dorian:  Only if you are trying to live up to an impossible standard.  Every Tevinter family is intermarrying to instill the perfect mage.  The perfect body.  The perfect mind.  The perfect leader.  It means that every perceived flaw, every abberation, is considered deviant.  It must be hidden.  

 

If you can't understand how this has to deal with familial duty, then I'm not sure that Bioware games are the right ones for you, frankly.

[In Exile]

Dorian blatantly said in the game that his father disapproves of the fact that he prefers the company of men. Spelled out, as in sex.

 

So David Gaider can claim that Halward didn't care about Dorian being homosexual all he wants, but if David Gaider contradicts what is clearly stated in the game, then David Gaider is wrong.

 

That's not what Dorian says. Dorian's says his father disapproves of the fact that he will only "keep the company of men", and won't "keep the company of women" (because we apparently all now talk like 18th century Victorian land barons). But I guess we're playing the game where we ignore the entire context of the exchange for the way Dorian chose to tiptoe around his sexuality. 

[Dai Grepher]

You seem to have forgotten the line that he says, which totally changes the context of that statement.  Want to read it for yourself?

 

Dorian:  I prefer the company of men.  My father disapproves.

 

Inquisitor:  That's a big concern in Tevinter, then?

 

Dorian:  Only if you are trying to live up to an impossible standard.  Every Tevinter family is intermarrying to instill the perfect mage.  The perfect body.  The perfect mind.  The perfect leader.  It means that every perceived flaw, every abberation, is considered deviant.  It must be hidden.  

 

If you can't understand how this has to deal with familial duty, then I'm not sure that Bioware games are the right ones for you, frankly.

 

All right, let me see if I've got this all lined up here. Dorian says his father disapproves of his homosexuality, the Inquisitor asks if that's a problem in Tevinter, and then Dorian responds by describing Tevinter customs. And you think this proves Halward has no problem with Dorian's homosexuality? That's what you're going with? That's your story?

 

At most this would only show Halward's reason for disapproving of Dorian's homosexuality as societal expectation, but it still confirms that he sees it as a problem. Which is my only point here. Halward has a problem with Dorian's homosexuality, despite what David Gaider wants to say in contradiction to that fact.

[Dai Grepher]

That's not what Dorian says. Dorian's says his father disapproves of the fact that he will only "keep the company of men", and won't "keep the company of women" (because we apparently all now talk like 18th century Victorian land barons). But I guess we're playing the game where we ignore the entire context of the exchange for the way Dorian chose to tiptoe around his sexuality. 

 

No, that isn't what he said. Daveliam quoted the relevant dialogue. You're wrong.
 

[CronoDragoon]

All right, let me see if I've got this all lined up here. Dorian says his father disapproves of his homosexuality, the Inquisitor asks if that's a problem in Tevinter, and then Dorian responds by describing Tevinter customs. And you think this proves Halward has no problem with Dorian's homosexuality? That's what you're going with? That's your story?

 

No one can prove one way or another whether Halward had a problem with homosexuality in particular (jn terms of in-game dialogue). It can be proven that the conflict which led to his father's blood magic and Dorian's leaving wasn't because of homosexuality but because his father wanted him to marry a woman in spite of it. Thus, the critical issue is familial duty, with marriage in spite of homosexuality being the specific context through which it is expressed.

 

The critical issue is easily identified by counterfactuals: ie would his father have resorted to blood magic if Dorian had agreed to continue the bloodline through marriage and reproduction? No. That doesn't mean his father is totally fine with Dorian being homosexual, but it does mean it isn't the issue on which the story branches.

[daveliam]

All right, let me see if I've got this all lined up here. Dorian says his father disapproves of his homosexuality, the Inquisitor asks if that's a problem in Tevinter, and then Dorian responds by describing Tevinter customs. And you think this proves Halward has no problem with Dorian's homosexuality? That's what you're going with? That's your story?

 

At most this would only show Halward's reason for disapproving of Dorian's homosexuality as societal expectation, but it still confirms that he sees it as a problem. Which is my only point here. Halward has a problem with Dorian's homosexuality, despite what David Gaider wants to say in contradiction to that fact.

 

I seriously can't tell if you are trolling or just really really slow.

 

Gaider stated that Halward doesn't have a problem with homosexuality in and of itself.  Had Dorian entered into a sham marriage and outwardly played along with the Tevinter expectation that he is straight, then Halward would have been happy to let him discreetly be gay.  But because Dorian wouldn't do his duty to his family, Halward wanted to use blood magic to control his mind and force him to enter into the sham marriage.  Dorian's issues with Halward stemmed primarily from what he viewed as a hypocritical approach from Halward, who always taught him that blood magic was wrong, but was willing to resort to it (thus Dorian seeing him 'choosing' his outward image over his son) when he felt it would benefit him. 

 

That's it.  That's the arc, right there.  Dorian's sexuality played a role in the story, as it was the primary reason why Dorian wouldn't enter into a sham marriage, thus neglecting his familial duty.  But Halward wasn't anti-gay.  He was 'anti-gay if it gets in the way of you doing your duty to your family'. 

 

Again, if you have played this scene and not been able to understand this, then you either weren't paying attention or were unable to comprehend the message.  Which is fine, in both cases.  But don't argue with people (including the author of the story) who did pay attention and did comprehend the message.

[Dai Grepher]

No one can prove one way or another whether Halward had a problem with homosexuality in particular (jn terms of in-game dialogue). It can be proven that the conflict which led to his father's blood magic and Dorian's leaving wasn't because of homosexuality but because his father wanted him to marry a woman in spite of it. Thus, the critical issue is familial duty, with marriage in spite of homosexuality being the specific context through which it is expressed.

 

The critical issue is easily identified by counterfactuals: ie would his father have resorted to blood magic if Dorian had agreed to continue the bloodline through marriage and reproduction? No. That doesn't mean his father is totally fine with Dorian being homosexual, but it does mean it isn't the issue on which the story branches.

 

I understand your point, but I disagree. What was the one obstacle preventing Dorian from marrying and having children? The fact that he was not sexually attracted to females. That is what Halward turned to bloodmagic to counter.
 

[CronoDragoon]

I understand your point, but I disagree. What was the one obstacle preventing Dorian from marrying and having children? The fact that he was not sexually attracted to females. That is what Halward turned to bloodmagic to counter.
 

 

But there are potentially many reasons why a person might not want to marry another person. What if Dorian fell in love with a slave and wanted to marry her? What if he was asexual? What if he wanted to leave Tevinter? All of these issues would have prevented him from continuing the family bloodline in the way his father wanted him to, and so they all would have led to his father using blood magic against him. That is why, even if Dorian's homosexuality is an issue for his father (which we don't know) from a moral perspective, the duty issue is more of an issue.