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[Dai Grepher]

But there are potentially many reasons why a person might not want to marry another person. What if Dorian fell in love with a slave and wanted to marry her? What if he was asexual? What if he wanted to leave Tevinter? All of these issues would have prevented him from continuing the family bloodline in the way his father wanted him to, and so they all would have led to his father using blood magic against him. That is why, even if Dorian's homosexuality is an issue for his father (which we don't know) from a moral perspective, the duty issue is more of an issue.

 

What ifs are fine, but that wasn't the case with Dorian. In Dorian's case it was about his homosexuality. That is what Halward had a problem with. If it had been Dorian being in love with a bondmaid, then I'd be in here saying Halward had a problem with Dorian's romanticism over a woman the family deemed unworthy. But it wasn't. It was about his homosexuality.

 

I don't think alternatives would have led Halward to consider bloodmagic. The slave girl would have quietly disappeared in the middle of the night. Asexuality and non-monogamy would have been met with constant pestering and guilt tripping until Dorian obliged, which Dorian was inclined to do. The reason why he could not do his father proud in this one area was because of his homosexuality, and thinking that this was something ingrained into Dorian's very being, Halward considered bloodmagic, which is a drastic measure. Obviously Halward thought that something so deeply imbedded into Dorian's psyche required something so drastic as bloodmagic. As Dorian said, "You tried to change me". He can't just be referring to Halward wanting to change his perspective on shame marriages. The bloodmagic was to address Dorian's sexuality, which was the only thing stopping him from doing as his father wished.
 

[AresKeith]

What ifs are fine, but that wasn't the case with Dorian. In Dorian's case it was about his homosexuality. That is what Halward had a problem with. If it had been Dorian being in love with a bondmaid, then I'd be in here saying Halward had a problem with Dorian's romanticism over a woman the family deemed unworthy. But it wasn't. It was about his homosexuality.

 

I don't think alternatives would have led Halward to consider bloodmagic. The slave girl would have quietly disappeared in the middle of the night. Asexuality and non-monogamy would have been met with constant pestering and guilt tripping until Dorian obliged, which Dorian was inclined to do. The reason why he could not do his father proud in this one area was because of his homosexuality, and thinking that this was something ingrained into Dorian's very being, Halward considered bloodmagic, which is a drastic measure. Obviously Halward thought that something so deeply imbedded into Dorian's psyche required something so drastic as bloodmagic. As Dorian said, "You tried to change me". He can't just be referring to Halward wanting to change his perspective on shame marriages. The bloodmagic was to address Dorian's sexuality, which was the only thing stopping him from doing as his father wished.
 

 

Except it wasn't the only thing

[daveliam]

What ifs are fine, but that wasn't the case with Dorian. In Dorian's case it was about his homosexuality. That is what Halward had a problem with. If it had been Dorian being in love with a bondmaid, then I'd be in here saying Halward had a problem with Dorian's romanticism over a woman the family deemed unworthy. But it wasn't. It was about his homosexuality.

 

I don't think alternatives would have led Halward to consider bloodmagic. The slave girl would have quietly disappeared in the middle of the night. Asexuality and non-monogamy would have been met with constant pestering and guilt tripping until Dorian obliged, which Dorian was inclined to do. The reason why he could not do his father proud in this one area was because of his homosexuality, and thinking that this was something ingrained into Dorian's very being, Halward considered bloodmagic, which is a drastic measure. Obviously Halward thought that something so deeply imbedded into Dorian's psyche required something so drastic as bloodmagic. As Dorian said, "You tried to change me". He can't just be referring to Halward wanting to change his perspective on shame marriages. The bloodmagic was to address Dorian's sexuality, which was the only thing stopping him from doing as his father wished.
 

 

All of this is true (minus your last statement).  However, none of it supports your claim that Dorian's story was about homosexuality and not duty.  It's not 'this or that'.  It's 'this and that'.  No one is claiming that his story isn't partially about homosexuality.  It's just that the homosexuality is the impetus for the real conflict:  duty to family over being true to yourself.

[Dai Grepher]

Except it wasn't the only thing

 

Okay, but if it was a thing at all, then we do at least agree that it was one of the things Halward had a problem with, and thus David Gaider is wrong to say it wasn't.
 

[AresKeith]

Okay, but if it was a thing at all, then we do at least agree that it was one of the things Halward had a problem with, and thus David Gaider is wrong to say it wasn't.

 

Is it a thing? Yes. The way your making it out to be and trying to make the writer of it wrong? No it's not

 

The fact that your really hung up over this is really interesting

[Dai Grepher]

All of this is true (minus your last statement).  However, none of it supports your claim that Dorian's story was about homosexuality and not duty.  It's not 'this or that'.  It's 'this and that'.  No one is claiming that his story isn't partially about homosexuality.  It's just that the homosexuality is the impetus for the real conflict:  duty to family over being true to yourself.

 

Well, I wrote that it was about family and forgiveness, but the purpose of that post you quoted was to address the matter of what Halward found so unacceptable about Dorian that he considered bloodmagic. So yes, that wasn't proof that the quest wasn't about duty. I proved that in post before that.

 

Dude, for the past page you guys have been saying Halward had no problem with Dorian's homosexuality. One of you quoted Gaider claiming as much, and when I said he was wrong you guys dismissed me. So now you're agreeing with me that Halward DID have a problem with Dorian's homosexuality?
 

[AresKeith]

Dude, for the past page you guys have been saying Halward had no problem with Dorian's homosexuality. One of you quoted Gaider claiming as much, and when I said he was wrong you guys dismissed me. So now you're agreeing with me that Halward DID have a problem with Dorian's homosexuality?

 

Because he doesn't have a problem with Dorian being homosexual, his issue was with Dorian not doing his duty of having the arranged marriage

 

Was it a thing in all of this? Yes

[daveliam]

Well, I wrote that it was about family and forgiveness, but the purpose of that post you quoted was to address the matter of what Halward found so unacceptable about Dorian that he considered bloodmagic. So yes, that wasn't proof that the quest wasn't about duty. I proved that in post before that.

 

Dude, for the past page you guys have been saying Halward had no problem with Dorian's homosexuality. One of you quoted Gaider claiming as much, and when I said he was wrong you guys dismissed me. So now you're agreeing with me that Halward DID have a problem with Dorian's homosexuality?
 

 

Do you not actually read what people write?  Because I very specifically addressed this very question just last page.

 

You have a real problem with understanding nuance.  It's black or white with you and, unfortunately, that's not the way that Bioware's writing is.  Does Halward have a problem with Dorian's sexuality?  Yes.  He does.  Is it because he's anti-homosexuality?  No, not necessarily.  That's Gaider's point.  His point is that Halward isn't against homosexuality in and of itself.  He's against homosexuality when it gets in the way of duty to your family, like in Dorian's case.  There's a conditional portion to the statement that makes your "black and white" blanket statement incorrect on many levels.  And when you try to use that blanket statement as 'proof' to an assertion you are making, people are going to, correctly, call you out on it.

 

Also,

 

I proved that in post before that.
 

 

LOL, no.  Like.  Not even a little bit.

[AresKeith]

Do you not actually read what people write?  Because I very specifically addressed this very question just last page.

 

You have a real problem with understanding nuance.  It's black or white with you and, unfortunately, that's not the way that Bioware's writing is.  Does Halward have a problem with Dorian's sexuality?  Yes.  He does.  Is it because he's anti-homosexuality?  No, not necessarily.  That's Gaider's point.  His point is that Halward isn't against homosexuality in and of itself.  He's against homosexuality when it gets in the way of duty to your family, like in Dorian's case.  There's a conditional portion to the statement that makes your "black and white" blanket statement incorrect on many levels.  And when you try to use that blanket statement as 'proof' to an assertion you are making, people are going to, correctly, call you out on it.

 

Doesn't Dorian also states that he doesn't approve of arranged marriages 

[Dai Grepher]

Is it a thing? Yes. The way your making it out to be and trying to make the writer of it wrong? No it's not

 

The fact that your really hung up over this is really interesting

 

Right, I'm pointing out a fact that people keep denying, and somehow that makes me "hung up" about the content of the story itself. Yeah.
 

[AlanC9]

(munches popcorn) I'm still waiting fir an answer to daveliam's point. You got anything?

[Andraste_Reborn]

It's worth remembering that we haven't run into anyone in the setting that has a moral problem with homosexuality as such. Societies in most of Thedas are heteronormative, in that people are generally expected to marry someone of the opposite sex. (Doubly so if they're nobility or otherwise under pressure to produce offspring.) Based on the assumption that relationships are usually between a man and a woman, there seem to be some stereotypes floating around, hence Gamlen's comment about which one of you is 'the girl' if you're a male Hawke in a same-sex relationship.

 

However, nobody thinks that homosexuality is a sin. Unlike, say, stealing or murder or summoning demons. The Chantry seems to have absolutely no interest in policing the sexuality of its followers. (The Qunari do, but the gender of the people you're boning/emotionally attached to isn't something they care about.) As far as we know, nobody anywhere is preaching that you'll go to hell if you're gay.

 

It's easy to imagine people in the setting thinking that homosexuality is selfish because you should get married and have kids - Halward might certainly believe that, even independently of his specific problem with Dorian's behaviour. But it wouldn't make much sense for him to think that gay sex was wrong, except insofar as it distracted you from doing your duty to your family and society. I mean, on what grounds?

 

(I guess somebody, somewhere in Thedas might also think that homosexual behaviour was unnatural. If they lived in a big city. It's difficult to spend any length of time around animals and maintain that view ...)

[Dai Grepher]

@daveliam So there is some alleged nuance, and I must pick up on it, but not just pick up on it but also come to the same conclusion you did, and if I don't... well... then I just fail at understanding things that aren't black and white. What a joke.

 

I understood your point. You think Halward was perfectly fine with Dorian being homosexual so long as he entered into a sham marriage and procreated. Well I disagree, and I think the game proves this by showing Halward was capable of employing bloodmagic to change Dorian's sexuality. Dorian blatantly says that is what his father disapproves of. Halward also shows discomfort when the subject is brought up saying that the display was unnecessary. Cole mimics Halward telling Dorian to get out and that he was no son of his. This shows Halward was disappointed in Dorian for what he does, not what he refuses to do. If the homosexuality had nothing to do with it, Halward would have worked something else out, or tried to convince him that he could still do what he wanted after siring some heirs, or he would have gotten him drunk and had the woman lay with him, whatever. He wouldn't have disowned him simply for refusing to marry and procreate.

 

Now you can go on believing that Halward had no problem with Dorian's sexual preference and that it was about the refusal of family duty, but even in this case the one affects the other. If Halward had no problem with homosexuality in general, but hated that it kept Dorian from fulfilling his duty, then that is still an example of Halward disapproving of Dorian's sexuality. I mean, if you're going to split hairs over this, does anyone have a problem with homosexuality in general or are you going to start pointing to all the reasons people disapprove of it? For example, "Christian doesn't have any problem with homosexuality. He just believes what the Bible tells him."

[CronoDragoon]

The bloodmagic was to address Dorian's sexuality, which was the only thing stopping him from doing as his father wished.

 

That's exactly right. The sentence you just wrote reveals what the real issue is: that Dorian is not doing as his father wishes. The cause of this problem is Dorian's insistence on shirking duty if it means making himself (and his hypothetical wife) miserable. In the above example of the slave girl, this would mean splitting from his family because his father killed the slave girl he loved.

 

The simplest way to put this is that if Dorian had simply accepted an arranged marriage despite being gay, there'd be no conflict. Dorian's refusal is the Sine Qua Non here, not his homosexuality. One can imagine that many homosexuals in Tevinter nevertheless accept arranged marriages to honor Tevinter tradition and family wishes. So the explanation for the conflict must always go beyond "because Dorian is gay" to "because Dorian is gay AND ALSO because he refuses to accept what he considers harmful Tevinter practice." The AND ALSO is what makes this situation unique, which is why it's the important part.

[The Oracle]

I think if Dorian had said to his father (imagine this line in Dorian's wonderful voice)

 

"Father! I'm sorry but I will NOT enter an arranged marriage. I have no interest in having sex with anyone, be they female, male or nug. I wish to spend all of my days quaffing wine and scrutinizing people's outfits. Also I hate children. Dirty, sniffling little snot-buckets. Ugh, no thank you. If you don't like it, I'm outta here."

 

I sure with the above, he would have used blood magic to try and turn Dorian's mind. Or if Dorian had declared that he only found Dwarven women attractive and refused to sleep with his own race. I think the reason why he turned to blood magic was because he knew once Dorian's mind was made up, he wouldn't be swayed with words. "Both too proud" as his father said, but perhaps it's less pride and more stubborn certainty of yourself and what you can and cannot live with being. 

[Dai Grepher]

That's exactly right. The sentence you just wrote reveals what the real issue is: that Dorian is not doing as his father wishes. The cause of this problem is Dorian's insistence on shirking duty if it means making himself (and his hypothetical wife) miserable. In the above example of the slave girl, this would mean splitting from his family because his father killed the slave girl he loved.

 

The simplest way to put this is that if Dorian had simply accepted an arranged marriage despite being gay, there'd be no conflict. Dorian's refusal is the Sine Qua Non here, not his homosexuality. One can imagine that many homosexuals in Tevinter nevertheless accept arranged marriages to honor Tevinter tradition and family wishes. So the explanation for the conflict must always go beyond "because Dorian is gay" to "because Dorian is gay AND ALSO because he refuses to accept what he considers harmful Tevinter practice." The AND ALSO is what makes this situation unique, which is why it's the important part.

 

No see, you're changing the issue when referring to shirking duty and putting another person through misery. This clouds the discussion. That would have been the mere result of Dorian going through with the sham. The cause of such an action causing misery was, again, his homosexuality. So it always goes back to that.

 

Not necessarily killed her, but maybe sold her, or she ran away. Such is the nature of slaves, hence why Dorian should not waste his time with them, would be Halward's point.

 

I think there would still have been conflict. There would be the ongoing risk of getting caught with another male, which would have brought shame to the house. It would have caused strife within the family as well, especially with the kids.
 

I get it, the idea that Halward could have nothing against homosexuality in general but not want Dorian to be homosexual because of family duty. I understand the argument. I just think that its splitting hairs. It's like saying, "I have nothing against homosexuality, I just disapprove of the fact that it holds people back from finding heterosexual relationships and having children." I mean, you think about it and conclude that it DOES mean you have something against it. So if Halward was saying he's fine with homosexuality, just not for HIS son, well then yes he disapproved of homosexuality then.

 

I don't think Dorian has a problem with arranged marriages in Tevinter. I think that's something he's used to seeing, like slavery. He doesn't think much on that, so why would he on arranged marriage, except when it comes to ending his "fun"? But this is neither here nor there.

 

At this point I'm wondering why people have a hard time recognizing that Halward had a problem with Dorian's sexuality. Is it that people want find a way for Gaider to be right? Do they think having that in the storyline somehow perpetuates "homophobia", or what?

[DuskWanderer]

Describe why it's an after-school special. Use specific reasons please.

 

You really don't know? Because it's all about "I'm gay and you won't accept it", it's "you're trying to change me and won't accept me!" 

 

I saw the same story in 8th grade. 

[Giantdeathrobot]

I get it, the idea that Halward could have nothing against homosexuality in general but not want Dorian to be homosexual because of family duty. I understand the argument. I just think that its splitting hairs. It's like saying, "I have nothing against homosexuality, I just disapprove of the fact that it holds people back from finding heterosexual relationships and having children." I mean, you think about it and conclude that it DOES mean you have something against it. So if Halward was saying he's fine with homosexuality, just not for HIS son, well then yes he disapproved of homosexuality then.

 

 

Uh, then you haven't spoken to an homophobic person. I have. It's not the same thing.

 

Halward dislikes the fact that Dorian's homosexuality keeps him from performing his familial duties. Sure, he's probably not a big fan of the orientation either, but as countless others have said, and as the author himself has alluded to, had Dorian been willing to marry and have children anyway, he could probably have had gay sex every night and Halward would have rolled with it so long as it meant carrying on the eugenics program.

 

The homophobic woman that I spoke to took it farther than that. The very existence of homosexuality, regardless of context, was almost offensive to her. No matter if one kept it under wraps and didn't make any fuss about it or pridefully announced on national TV they would never have children because they were gay. It had to be stamped out. She would utterly refuse to speak to an homosexual, considering them deviants and perverts the same way most people think of rapists or pedophiles. That is hating homosexuality for its own sake. And that is not what Halward said or did, ever.

 

As such, no, the quest wasn't solely about Dorian being gay. It played a part, sure. But only insofar as it made Dorian refuse to do his duty. Had Halward wanted to murder/brainwash his son just because he was gay and nothing else, then it would have been solely about homosexuality. But it's not what is said in the game, and the author himself has confirmed that.

[Malthier]

Not really lesbians, since I understand the fantasy to be that those women will eventually have sex with the dude? 

 

Not necessarily, girl on girl is reward enough for some

 

Hence all the straight males playing femshep x liara

[Malthier]

I understood your point. You think Halward was perfectly fine with Dorian being homosexual so long as he entered into a sham marriage and procreated. Well I disagree, and I think the game proves this by showing Halward was capable of employing bloodmagic to change Dorian's sexuality. 

 

too damn bad. 

 

you vs. head writer = head writer wins

Right, I'm pointing out a fact that people keep denying, and somehow that makes me "hung up" about the content of the story itself. Yeah.

 

Yep

[Dai Grepher]

Uh, then you haven't spoken to an homophobic person. I have. It's not the same thing.

 

Halward dislikes the fact that Dorian's homosexuality keeps him from performing his familial duties. Sure, he's probably not a big fan of the orientation either, but as countless others have said, and as the author himself has alluded to, had Dorian been willing to marry and have children anyway, he could probably have had gay sex every night and Halward would have rolled with it so long as it meant carrying on the eugenics program.

 

The homophobic woman that I spoke to took it farther than that. The very existence of homosexuality, regardless of context, was almost offensive to her. No matter if one kept it under wraps and didn't make any fuss about it or pridefully announced on national TV they would never have children because they were gay. It had to be stamped out. She would utterly refuse to speak to an homosexual, considering them deviants and perverts the same way most people think of rapists or pedophiles. That is hating homosexuality for its own sake. And that is not what Halward said or did, ever.

 

As such, no, the quest wasn't solely about Dorian being gay. It played a part, sure. But only insofar as it made Dorian refuse to do his duty. Had Halward wanted to murder/brainwash his son just because he was gay and nothing else, then it would have been solely about homosexuality. But it's not what is said in the game, and the author himself has confirmed that.

 

Didn't write that Halward was homophobic.

 

Even if that were true, the fact that Halward disapproves of Dorian's sexuality at all means he has a problem with it. If this had only been about Dorian doing his duty, then that would have been the focus of the story, not his preferring the company of men.

 

You're citing an extreme example. Of course Halward doesn't compare to that, but it doesn't mean he still didn't have a problem with Dorian's homosexuality.
 

Didn't write it was solely about homosexuality.

[Dai Grepher]

you vs. head writer = head writer wins

 

It isn't me vs. the ex lead writer. It's the canon vs. the ex lead writer. And in that case the canon wins.

[leadintea]

It isn't me vs. the ex lead writer. It's the canon vs. the ex lead writer. And in that case the canon wins.

 

I really don't know why you keep emphasizing Gaider being the "ex" lead writer. No matter how you try to discredit him, he still wrote that character when he was working on the DA series and has final say on canonical matters regarding him. It's not like now that he's no longer with the DA series that all the work he's done is now null and void and can suddenly be attributed to someone else.

[Dai Grepher]

First, to point out a fact. Second, to indicate that he is no longer in control of the canon. David Gaider is not discredited by his lack of title, he is discredited only by the canon, should his statements conflict with it.

[daveliam]

First, to point out a fact. Second, to indicate that he is no longer in control of the canon. David Gaider is not discredited by his lack of title, he is discredited only by the canon, should his statements conflict with it.

Which they don't, in this case. Despite your incorrect assertions otherwise.....