63 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

I was reading the WoW forums earlier when the idea for this thread came to me. Some people there are ragging on the newest expansion and essentially crying wolf about how Blizzard has lost their way and how vanilla WoW was so much better or how TBC (the first expansion) was the best or whatever and how WoW is dying (despite still having the most active subscriptions for any subscription-based game). I enjoy the current expansion myself, but I won't delude myself by saying that it is free of issues. It has plenty of them. However, all things considered objectively, WoW in the past few years (2012 to now) has been the best it's ever been in the game's 10 year long life span.

 

Admittedly, the older expansions did do some things better (I personally think WotLK was the pinnacle of WoW's storytelling and that Cataclysm was the best in terms of gear acquisition and stat itemization), but as a whole package, I would take today's WoW over 2004-2007 WoW.

 

I've seen the same issue with other games too, especially in games that have a legacy. Legacy of Zelda, Mortal Kombat, Super Mario, and Fallout have been the worst, in my experience. 

 

"Twilight Princess is garbage, just remake Ocarina!"

"MKX is a terrible game, do MK9 again!"

"New Super Mario Bros. is dumbed down for the kiddie peasants, we want Super Mario World again!"

"Fallout 3 is in first-person? Bethesda ruined the franchise and is advertising to the Call of Duty players! Bring back Fallout 1/2!"

 

The older games are still quite good and will always have their mark left on the history of gaming, but pretending that the newer ones are *bad* games, solely because they are different, is unrelentingly retarded. 

 

To use the WoW example from before, a good number of people want to claim that vanilla was the best experience. Taken in a vacuum, this is a perfectly valid stance to have. People have preferences, after all. My issue is more with how they present it. What they forget is that vanilla was also unbelievably tedious and boring, with hilariously severe class imbalance. Leveling was a chore, classes were loaded with useless abilities that served little to no purpose, raid bosses were incredibly dull and had only 1 or 2 mechanics, if any at all (most of them prior to Naxxramas consisted of "hit the boss until it dies" with no other thought or strategy necessary"). Classes all had 3 specializations that could go into for higher levels of play, and most classes had only 1 valid spec to "choose" from (2 if they were lucky), with talent builds for that spec being very rigid in terms of what was useful, with a lot of useless filler and clutter. Hell, anyone who played a tank character and WASN'T a Warrior was essentially doing it wrong, since it was so far ahead of the other tanks in terms of output. Other classes would be relegated to handing out buffs for the entirety of boss fights instead of actually contributing to the kill. One faction had a huge advantage over the other because of Paladins (who could both tank and heal in addition to DPS) being exclusive to them, while the other faction was stuck with Shamans (who could only DPS and heal).

 

It's simple nostalgia, when the nostalgia goggles are taken off, we can see just how bad vanilla was *as a game* compared to, say, WotLK or Mists. And since it's nostalgia, everyone's memories are based on appealing to their emotions and what made them feel good. Hitting level 60 in vanilla *felt* like an accomplishment to them. Raiding *felt* epic due to the 40 player count. PvP battles *felt* huge and engaging. Regardless of however they *felt*, they are not any of these things. The game as it was back then was a broken mess that would score heinously low marks if it was released today.

 

TLDR: people are too quick to write a game off just because it's different than the one that came before it. People are idiots and can't think for themselves when it comes to evaluating something, they rely on their feelings and don't use their heads. The quality of games, as a whole, has improved greatly form the days of the NES/SNES/Sega Genesis/etc, even if you want to plug your ears and say that games suck nowadays.

[Isichar]

Not completely related to what you're saying but I think this WoW expansion was one of the best for quests and lore personally. Vanilla was a lot of fun but had a lot of issues. Finding groups for a dungeon could be a big pain in the ass. There was also stuff like having to level up weapon skills and such I was pretty meh about.

[Liamv2]

No. While I do feel that people's nostalgia boners are annoying and some once good games have aged like **** some do genuinely hold up to this day and yes in some cases new stuff is worse than the old.

[TheClonesLegacy]

No one says they want Mario World again. Great game. But New Super Mario Bros is still cut from the same cloth.

 

Sunshine 2 or Galaxy 3. Please and thank you.

[o Ventus]

No one says they want Mario World again. Great game. But New Super Mario Bros is still cut from the same cloth.

 

Sunshine 2 or Galaxy 3. Please and thank you.

 

@bold: Tell that to people who go to Giantbomb. I see "Nintendo, make SMW2" a lot.

[TheClonesLegacy]

@bold: Tell that to people who go to Giantbomb. I see "Nintendo, make SMW2" a lot.

They did.

 

It was called Yoshi's Island.

 

[o Ventus]

They did.

 

It was called Yoshi's Island.

 

 

I guess that doesn't cut it for them then, because "make SMW2" was a direct quote. I haven't played Yoshi's Island (the oldest Mario game I've played was Super Mario Land on the GameBoy Color, which I think is younger than SMW), so I don't know if they were being facetious and saying the game was bad by ignoring it as a sequel. or if they were actually an idiot.

[Farangbaa]

My nostalgia glasses are horribly broken, it seems.

I bought BG1 en BG2 enhanced editions during the summer sale. I haven't even gotten to Nashkel before I quit. Can't deal with the graphics (never in my life did I think I'd say this...), can't handle the framerate, the general slowness of the game, I can't handle it in general.

I wish I hadn't bought them to be honest, the BG trilogy was always firmly in my top 5 games ever. Now it's not anymore.

[TheClonesLegacy]

I guess that doesn't cut it for them then, because "make SMW2" was a direct quote. I haven't played Yoshi's Island (the oldest Mario game I've played was Super Mario Land on the GameBoy Color, which I think is younger than SMW), so I don't know if they were being facetious and saying the game was bad by ignoring it as a sequel. or if they were actually an idiot.

Probably the latter.

[Fidite Nemini]

I guess that doesn't cut it for them then, because "make SMW2" was a direct quote. I haven't played Yoshi's Island (the oldest Mario game I've played was Super Mario Land on the GameBoy Color, which I think is younger than SMW), so I don't know if they were being facetious and saying the game was bad by ignoring it as a sequel. or if they were actually an idiot.

 

They're idiots, because SMW2: Yoshi's Island is a damn good game.

[Voxr]

Most people with nostalgia boners IMO, are holier than thou with a small superiority complex because they remember "The Good Ol' Days". And in the case of WoW I think it's specifically one of two reasons: Reason A.) They're somewhat burnt out/ losing interest in a game they've been playing for 10 years. Taste changes as the time changes, but they still want to hold onto past glory and fun (I admit I fall somewhat into this category) or Reason B.) They're just butt hurt.

And honestly I think those similar reasons can apply in a small part to the gaming community at large. At least Reason A. I know a couple of people who wear their rose tinted glasses for those "Classic Games" (basically anything before the 7th gen obv) but they hardly play any games. Weather it be new or old, and I think their interest in gaming is waning, but they don't quite know how to react to it. It's like they know they used to like gaming, but not anymore. So obviously it must be because new games just suck compared to the "Good Ol' Days".

But that's just how I see a part of it.

[o Ventus]

Most people with nostalgia boners IMO, are holler than thou people with a small superiority complex because they remember "The Good Ol' Days". And in the case of WoW I think it's specifically one of two reasons: Reason A.) They're somewhat burnt out/ losing interest in a game they've been playing for 10 years. Taste changes as the time changes, but they still want to hold onto past glory and fun (I admit I fall somewhat into this category) or  Reason B.) They're just butt hurt.

 

And honestly I think those similar reasons can apply in a small part to the gaming community at large. At least Reason A. I know a couple of people who wear their rose tinted glasses for those "Classic Games" (basically anything before the 7th gen obv) but they hardly play any games. Weather it be new and old, and I think their interest in gaming is waning, but they don't quite know how to react to it. It's like they know they used to like gaming, but not anymore. So obviously it must be because new games just suck compared to the "Good Ol' Days".

 

But that's just how I see a part of it.  

 

This has always been my first thought. I wouldn't mind playing through the WotLK era of the game again myself for a bit of nostalgia, since that's when I started and I have very fond memories of questing through Northrend for the first time and starting to raid (even if I was atrocious since I was new), but I will be the first to acknowledge that the game plays far better now than it did in 2008-2010.

 

But then my burn out period was from the end of Cataclysm up to patch 5.4 in Mists when I just stopped playing, and my interest in the game is still pretty high since I got back into it halfway through 5.4, even with a good 6 or 7 years of play time on my account.

[Nattfare]

Games like these just aren't made anymore.
 

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

[Akrabra]

My nostalgia glasses are horribly broken, it seems.

I bought BG1 en BG2 enhanced editions during the summer sale. I haven't even gotten to Nashkel before I quit. Can't deal with the graphics (never in my life did I think I'd say this...), can't handle the framerate, the general slowness of the game, I can't handle it in general.

I wish I hadn't bought them to be honest, the BG trilogy was always firmly in my top 5 games ever. Now it's not anymore.

Heresy! I don't have any problems with replaying BG2 in its original edition, but BG is abit to old for me to get back into it, even with the Enhanced Edition. I see where are you coming from though. Only reason i don't play Morrowind as much anymore is because of the combat. Oblivion and Skyrim is just superior in its gameplay and so Morrowind now falls short. Still an amazing game though. 

 

I think its more about people not beeing willing to deal with change and losing what is familiar. Gaming evolves and franchises change. They always will and we just have to adapt and roll with it. It won't diminish the great games that we have played and will continue to play for 50 or so years. Don't know what else to say, O Ventus said it so well in his post. 

[BroBear Berbil]

However, all things considered objectively, WoW in the past few years (2012 to now) has been the best it's ever been in the game's 10 year long life span.

 

 

The older games are still quite good and will always have their mark left on the history of gaming, but pretending that the newer ones are *bad* games, solely because they are different, is unrelentingly retarded. 

 

To use the WoW example from before, a good number of people want to claim that vanilla was the best experience. What they forget is that vanilla was also unbelievably tedious and boring, with hilariously severe class imbalance. Leveling was a chore, classes were loaded with useless abilities that served little to no purpose, raid bosses were incredibly dull and had only 1 or 2 mechanics, if any at all (most of them prior to Naxxramas consisted of "hit the boss until it dies" with no other thought or strategy necessary"). Classes all had 3 specializations that could go into for higher levels of play, and most classes had only 1 valid spec to "choose" from (2 if they were lucky), with talent builds for that spec being very rigid in terms of what was useful, with a lot of useless filler and clutter. Hell, anyone who played a tank character and WASN'T a Warrior was essentially doing it wrong, since it was so far ahead of the other tanks in terms of output. Other classes would be relegated to handing out buffs for the entirety of boss fights instead of actually contributing to the kill. One faction had a huge advantage over the other because of Paladins (who could both tank and heal in addition to DPS) being exclusive to them, while the other faction was stuck with Shamans (who could only DPS and heal).

 

 

I have trouble believing that, though I stopped raiding midway through Wrath and finally quit for good at the start of Cata. The community became absolute garbage after they implemented the group finder. Unfortunately, like everything else WoW did, the group finder became an MMO standard to be followed by meta servers to the point that modern MMOs don't have server communities worth mentioning. I don't know how you even get into a guild these days without randomly joining (which has always been **** in my experience in GW2) or filling out a psuedo job application after making an account on their website. I used to meet friends by actually playing the game and running dungeons. Now the game has raidfinder, "streamlined" talent trees and glyphs, etc. as well.

 

I'll agree that Vanilla wasn't the be all and end all. That's why during Vanilla I only played for a few months but ultimately the game had nothing to offer that was superior to FFXI for me at the time, besides dungeons. TBC however, was phenomenal. Balance, options, gameplay for healers was vastly improved, mechanics, and more. I also liked Wrath except for the mad dash Blizz made towards homogenizing classes at that point and losing my old Windfury totem. I hear there's several sources of Bloodlust these days, just lol.

 

I probably would have kept playing Wrath had I been able to meet new people in a natural way after my guild imploded, but by then group finder had just come out and being a great healer in dungeons meant **** to random people I would never see again. By the time Cata rolled around and I was trying to gear up in dungeons with everybody else 3/4 of the groups I got into were not great in ability and attitude. I adapted to the healing changes though most Wrath babies were acting like I still had infinite mana to carry them through everything. It wasn't worth putting up with the abuse; it's no wonder Blizz had to scale back on those healing changes - not because of healers but because the DPS monsters they created in Wrath couldn't cope with things like CC or interrupting in dungeons.

 

And being different from a predecessor is a perfectly legitimate reason to criticize a game. Different isn't always better. Different in some cases even destroys the aspects that drew some people to a game/series in the first place.

[TheChris92]

I think, in the end, nostalgia is a bit of a double edged sword. The common notion is that nostalgia refers to things being better in the past, on wanting to return to a better time or place which isn't necessarily true. In the past we were younger, more naive and less exposed to negative news. As trends would have, things like awareness on societal issues, technology and what can be done (in this case with gaming) is ever improving.

 

The way I see it though, there are 2 different kinds of nostalgia. There's the bad conservative-one, where the desire for things to ever stay the same or play similar to how it used to be is ever present and the good kind - The kind that merely evokes the past; using the fond memories we have as a sort of lubricant for the new stories and new ideas it wants to convey. Bad nostalgia seeks only to recreate the past exactly as it was brick by brick.

 

In retrospect, I think there are lot of old games that are generally more fun than any recent new games I've played. An example could be Thief or Hitman Blood Money, stealth games of old, where stealth was sneakiest and the sprawly level design wa the sprawliest without all this necessary need to open everything up and become an open world game. Yuck.

[Voxr]

 MMOs don't have server communities worth mentioning. 

 

Moonguard US. 

 

Goldshire.......

[BroBear Berbil]

Moonguard US. 

 

Goldshire.......

 

ERP is interesting, granted. I miss the kinds of communities you'd get 10 years ago, especially in something like FFXI. Reputation and making friends you could call on were vital.

 

It also made endgame drama even juicier since almost everybody knew everybody to some degree.

[Cyonan]

As somebody who played a Paladin in WoW since vanilla, DPS and tanking were not roles that Blizzard supported for us until after the Horde got them. We just had really strong buffs and cleanse which is what gave us the advantage in PvE. Shamans on the other hand were stronger in PvP.

 

Vanilla had a lot of problems that the newer expansions don't have, but the community element was strong because there was no cross server stuff which to me was the strong point of MMOs. TBC fixed up a lot of issues while still retaining the community, and while WotLK was great it introduced the group finder which was the end of community. Ever since Cataclysm, I personally feel like the game has been going downhill. Though I'm not going to be stupid enough to claim that it's "dying". It will be around for a long time, even with the somewhat recent massive drop in subscribers.

 

I've also been accused of "rose tinted glasses" over my preference to old school FPS games and thinking that most modern ones are not very good. Thing is, I can go and play games like Unreal Tournament, Half-Life, or Doom and have loads more fun than I do with Call of Duty, Battlefield, or whatever other shooters they're putting out today. The most fun I've had with a modern FPS is with Wolfenstein, because it's done in the old school style.

 

While there are a lot of cases of people remembering things as being better than they were, nostalgia is also used way too often as a way of dismissing any legitimate criticism against the new stuff.

[Voxr]

ERP is interesting, granted. I miss the kinds of communities you'd get 10 years ago, especially in something like FFXI. Reputation and making friends you could call on were vital.

It also made endgame drama even juicier since almost everybody knew everybody to some degree.

You can still get that now. Granted it's little rare now that everyone just blows through LFR. But if you know where to look you can find the people to get a tight knit community. Its not completely gone.

[SlottsMachine]

 

In retrospect, I think there are lot of old games that are generally more fun than any recent new games I've played. An example could be Thief or Hitman Blood Money, stealth games of old, where stealth was sneakiest and the sprawly level design wa the sprawliest without all this necessary need to open everything up and become an open world game. Yuck.

 

Yeah, sometimes games of old were just plain better. System Shock 2 is one of my all time favs and I just played it for the first time a few years ago, having the same critical eye as I would for any modern game. Best game of 2012! LOL. 

 

And a lot of the time its more about people having different tastes than it is nostalgia. Like I can't prefer ME1 for example without being accused of wearing nostalgia goggles. 

[Voxr]

Cross server IMO has been a benefit. At least on low pop servers (which was the point of its implementation). Having played on Daggerspine US my entire WoW career it was great to finally have people running around the world again. And actually be in a guild with active members. Cause by the time Cata rolled around it was basically dead.

[Draining Dragon]

The nature of game design has changed over time. Does it occur to you that some people might truly enjoy the experience offered by older games as opposed to newer games?

[Sion1138]

They're right to a degree.

 

Things are getting dumber on the whole.