320 réponses à ce sujet

[DarthSliver]

They did. Also, the genophage. And the geth and quarians. And the rachni. And Kahje. And so forth. The problem is that it's almost impossible to screw up your choices enough to end up in a low-EMS state. Bad implementation.

So declaring that Control and Synthesis were fake indoctrinated choices diesn't negate them? I don't check your math there.

Anyway, IT is too hated. This one's a nonstarter. If you want to canonize Destroy, do it honestly.

 

The trilogy was to Destroy the Reapers, thats what Shepard set out to do in ME1 anything less breaks character. They could also do polls and canonize the popular voted ending to continue in MW. Andromeda is doing exactly what I said anyways negating the endings. 

 

We got IT because the crucible wasn't a pure nuke Reaper device and we got the Ark Theory because of why IT was created and because the Crucible fired funny colors. IT and Ark Theory are one in the same, explain a void in the ME3 choices. 

[Han Shot First]

The thing about an ark project is that the logistics involved would be on a similar scale to the crucible. It's going to be impossible to keep it secret it forever and rumors of its existence would eventually get it out before its even finished like the crucible.

 

The Manhattan Project remained a secret throughout most of its existence. Truman wasn't briefed until he became president. General MacArthur, who was in command of all U.S. Army forces in the Pacific and the Far East, wasn't briefed until a month before the bombs were dropped. Admiral Nimitz, who was commander-in-chief of the Pacific Fleet, was only briefed shortly before MacArthur. 

 

With that in mind, Shepard not being in the know about an ark project doesn't bother me. It makes sense, and really there is no reason why he should be briefed.

 

The ark project may also not be a colossal construction project. It is entirely possible that they just retrofitted existing ships to make the journey to Andromeda.

[Ahriman]

We got IT because the crucible wasn't a pure nuke Reaper device and we got the Ark Theory because of why IT was created and because the Crucible fired funny colors. IT and Ark Theory are one in the same, explain a void in the ME3 choices. 

Not really, IT was born from denial of sh*t, Ark theory is acceptance of it. And when you accept RGB as cannon, you need to work around it.

[DarthSliver]

Not really, IT was born from denial of sh*t, Ark theory is acceptance of it. And when you accept RGB as cannon, you need to work around it.

 

Well there was hope Bioware was using one of the things that has been mentioned many times throughout the trilogy towards our character, can't really blame them for hoping it only appeared to be sh*t. 

 

But Ark Theory will end the same as IT because Andromeda is happening because Bioware doesn't wanna deal with sh*t endings they created. 

[Dean_the_Young]

There's no telling who really was or wasn't in repeated proximity, though. Indoctrinated agents could be anywhere.

 

This is incorrect. We may not know with perfect accuracy who wasn't in repeated proximity, but we can identify known people who are.

 

Such as, for example, Shepherd.

 

The first is the inherent issue of imperfect knowledge. The second is just stupid.
 

 

There are benefits to telling Shepard, however, the big one being: "Keep the Reapers away from this place."

 

 

Telling Shepard where not to go is not a benefit- especially if Shepard is indoctrinated, or spied upon, or in any other way compromised.

 

The galaxy is a massive place. Shepard goes to a very small range of it. The chances of Shepard randomly stumbling upon it is inconsequentially minute- and, if Shepard isn't indoctrinated, won't be an issue if does happen. The chances of the coordinates being leaked if Shepard is needlessly told is radically higher no matter if Shepard is indoctrianted or not- and if is, would be a catastrophic failure.

 

 

 

Remember what happens when Shepard goes searching for the Leviathans? 

 

 

 

That's... not an argument for telling Shepard where the project is. If anything, it's the opposite: if you want to keep a secret, don't tell it and leave artifacts/records around to help you trace it. In other words, don't tell people.

 

If Shepherd looks for the Crucible Project (or the Arc Project), that's an indicator that there's something wrong with Shepard, not that Shepard should be told.

[Dean_the_Young]

Shepard is the N7 in the trailer... One more Story.

 

I find it hard to believe that the Ark was kept secret, I mean thinking back to the comic book even the whole Lazarus project finding and getting Shepard the Reaper agents somehow someone knew. 

 

I mean even if they were under NDA, leaks whether on purpose or not do happen. Now think about the people working on this project. They are told they can't contact family while the whole world is coming down around them. Unless their is some plan to take family with them, someone would try to sneak someone not on the list into the ship. Battlestar galactica, the threat was still present which is more realistic. 

 

...that would be the point of a colonization project, yes.

 

Mass Effect also has established and relatively reliable secrecy control measures. As long as you can control ship traffic and com security- and those do exist in the ME universe- you can keep secret sites.

[Dean_the_Young]

 

Wow. Just...just wow. Do you say "Get over yourself." to everyone else with PTSD?

 

Of course not. Only the people who try to play the PTSD card in misery poker that they'd lose.

 

The only exceptional consideration PTSD warrants is counseling for PTSD. It does not entitle you to make other people take risks for you ego.

 

 

Shepard suffers the loss of friends, the stress of the fact every minute they don't stop the Reapers thousands of people die,

 

That makes him, like, the rest of the galaxy caught up in the Reaper War- which is pretty much everyone- and far better than the people who DON'T have many of their friends in relative safety.
 

 

people dying for/because of them, etc. That's hardly self-centered arrogance. 

 

 

It is when it's treated as unique.

 

Shepherd's role in the galacitc fight is exeptional. The basis for Shepard's angst is not.
 

 

Also, Liara doesn't have the Cipher. If she did, she would have understood that one recording on Ilos, but she didn't. 

 

 

The cipher can be transferred- that's how Shepard gets it- so whether Liara did or not is irrelevant- especially since you're ignoring the point of how the cipher doesn't matter in the series post-Ilos.
 

 

You say it avoids diminishing the impacts of a choice, but that's exactly what this move does. Every choice you make is now diminished and filed away into headcanon territory. For a series that has been advertised as "Your Choices Matter", that's not a gain. 

 

 

It's a bizaar day when 'we will let your choices stand and be interpreted as you wish' is not considered a gain in an RPG.

 

'Not developed' is not the same as 'diminished.' Canonizing choices 'diminishes' the outcome states becuase it diminishes the allowable degree of canon-compatible interpretations.

[Dean_the_Young]

Do you think the people in charge of the ark are going to tell people of these dangers before they lie to and kidnap them and make all communication to their friends and families impossible?

 

 

They'd be rather stupid if they did that.

 

Lie and kidnap random people, I mean.

 

Black projects are generally successful because they do rely on True Believers.

 

 

 

Do you think the people will be thinking about that more than thinking about the known dangers of the Reapers? Their mindset is one of "Get me out of here", and there is nothing courageous in that. 

 

 

*Citation needed.

 

And a bit weird. But mostly *citation needed.
 

 

The people you listed were all volunteers and knew of the dangers, but did it anyway for the sole reason of exploration. That is a lot different than what the ark represents. Now if the trip to Andromeda is for exploration and everyone involved volunteered to see those reasons fulfilled, then I retract my statement. But then it doesn't follow Ark Theory anymore. 

 

 

 

Why such a narrow imagination?

 

Why can't desperate refugees and specialists brave the unknown and uncertainty with a project for the goal of saving people?

[Dean_the_Young]

You know this is only a problem because they wanted the Crucible to fire funny colors and not just nuke the Reapers. The choices we made during the trilogy should've effected how effective the Crucible was protected so it could fire.

 

They... did. It's the EMS distinction.

 

Also, ME2 dictates what the low-EMS option actually is.

 

Now, the EMS system was crude and weird, and the bar so low that most people never understood it, but... yeah. Your past choices, collectively, could have a heavily influence on what your final options were and outcome. Most people just maxed easily because we're completionists who do sidequests.
 

[Dean_the_Young]

The trilogy was to Destroy the Reapers, thats what Shepard set out to do in ME1 anything less breaks character.

 

Strange. Playing ME1 and ME2, I remember a lot of 'stop the reapers' but relatively little 'destroy the reapers.'

[Oldren Shepard]

For the goddess, lets see ...COLONIZATION, EXPLORATION OF NEW TERRITORIES

[themikefest]

Shepard already knew the coordinates to the crucible otherwise how would he/she know where to send Mordin? So I wouldn't be worried about Shepard leaking the location of the ark/ship/whatever project if he/she was told about the project.

[Ahriman]

 Your past choices, collectively, could have a heavily influence on what your final options were and outcome. 

 

We all know they couldn't, let's not fool ouselves. "Friendly to newcomers", remember?

Shepard already knew the coordinates to the crucible otherwise how would he/she know where to send Mordin? 

Just like Jacob, contact him with Hacket.

[dreamgazer]

This is incorrect. We may not know with perfect accuracy who wasn't in repeated proximity, but we can identify known people who are.
 
Such as, for example, Shepherd.
 
The first is the inherent issue of imperfect knowledge. The second is just stupid.

We can't track the prior whereabouts of every single person across the galaxy at all times. Indoctrinated spies were a problem in the previous cycle. Letting people through simply because they don't have any documented time around Reaper technology is a sure-fire way of opening the door for such spies.

Anyway, Anyone who's passed through the Citadel or used one of the relays has been in proximity of Reaper technology, information that is published in the codex at the time of ME3. Everybody's a suspect.
 

Telling Shepard where not to go is not a benefit- especially if Shepard is indoctrinated, or spied upon, or in any other way compromised.

It's a benefit because Shepard draws the "attention of those infinitely your greater" to any area within which s/he travels, and a lot of traveling is certain to be done (and is done) across all points of the galaxy.
 

The galaxy is a massive place. Shepard goes to a very small range of it. The chances of Shepard randomly stumbling upon it is inconsequentially minute- and, if Shepard isn't indoctrinated, won't be an issue if does happen. The chances of the coordinates being leaked if Shepard is needlessly told is radically higher no matter if Shepard is indoctrianted or not- and if is, would be a catastrophic failure.

You're going to have to show your work on that, because it appears as if Shepard travels through many of the active primary and secondary relays across a rather wide spread of the galaxy.
 

That's... not an argument for telling Shepard where the project is. If anything, it's the opposite: if you want to keep a secret, don't tell it and leave artifacts/records around to help you trace it. In other words, don't tell people.

Incorrect. Telling someone where something vital is and to avoid said area will reduce the risk of drawing attention there. Like painting a wall or a canvas and telling someone to steer clear. They probably won't touch it anyway, but it's better that they know so they don't accidentally bump into it.
 

If Shepherd looks for the Crucible Project (or the Arc Project), that's an indicator that there's something wrong with Shepard, not that Shepard should be told.

Shepard wouldn't be looking for the ark project. Shepard would be steering clear of the ark project.

[Dantriges]

Huh? I thought that only specific stuff indoctrinates like pieces of a reaper, the implants or being inside one like when the Reapers invited thge leaders of Earth into their ships to discuss terms.

[dreamgazer]

Huh? I thought that only specific stuff indoctrinates like pieces of a reaper, the implants or being inside one like when the Reapers invited thge leaders of Earth into their ships to discuss terms.

That's correct, but the logistics of how indoctrination works and what causes it are incredibly vague at this point in the game. 

[AlanC9]

The trilogy was to Destroy the Reapers, thats what Shepard set out to do in ME1 anything less breaks character.

Don't speak for my Shepards. If you want to play someone who will stick to his original plan without thinking about it, that's your business, but I generally play characters who aren't too stupid or too inflexible to re-evaluate their goals when new information comes in.

Andromeda is doing exactly what I said anyways negating the endings.

How so? Any of them could have happened.

We got IT because the crucible wasn't a pure nuke Reaper device and we got the Ark Theory because of why IT was created and because the Crucible fired funny colors. IT and Ark Theory are one in the same, explain a void in the ME3 choices.

Yeah, some people couldn't face the reality of the endings so they invented IT to get away from it. But not all of us are that capable of self-delusion.

[Ahriman]

It's a benefit because Shepard draws the "attention of those infinitely your greater" to any area within which s/he travels, and a lot of traveling is certain to be done (and is done) across all points of the galaxy.

Your logic is still beyond my comprehension. Why don't they just send these coordinates to every military vessel in the galaxy with note "Never go here or you can lead Reapers to us!"? You are taking this gotta-catch-this-Shepard mini-game too seriously, systems where it happens are already controlled by Reapers, Shepard doesn't summon them from Eternal Void.

[AlanC9]

You're going to have to show your work on that, because it appears as if Shepard travels through many of the active primary and secondary relays across a rather wide spread of the galaxy.

But surely that's a subset of the total network. We have good figures on the number of human-colonized worlds, and we know that most of them never appear on the map. Same thing for the other races, though the figures are more vague.

[In Exile]

Strange. Playing ME1 and ME2, I remember a lot of 'stop the reapers' but relatively little 'destroy the reapers.'

 

Well, technically, we stopped the reapers in ME1 by destroying one of them. Of course we did it because Sovereign is just an idiot, who apparently did the one thing that made it vulnerable, but whatevers. 

[Dean_the_Young]

We can't track the prior whereabouts of every single person across the galaxy at all times. Indoctrinated spies were a problem in the previous cycle. Letting people through simply because they don't have any documented time around Reaper technology is a sure-fire way of opening the door for such spies.

 

We don't need to track the prior whereabouts of every single personal across the galaxy at all times. This is what is known as 'letting perfect be the enemy of better.'

 

You're arguing against your own premise. If indoctrinated spies are a problem, then the logical conclusion isn't 'let through people simply because they don't have documented time around Reapers tech'- it's the opposite. DON'Tt let through people who DO have documented time around Reaper tech.

 

You can't stop the risks you don't know about- but you can manage the ones you do.

 

Anyway, Anyone who's passed through the Citadel or used one of the relays has been in proximity of Reaper technology, information that is published in the codex at the time of ME3. Everybody's a suspect.
 

 

 

Not all Reaper tech, and especially not the relays and Citadel, are indoctrination devices. There have been no in-universe indications of mass relays indoctrinating anyone.

 

It's a benefit because Shepard draws the "attention of those infinitely your greater" to any area within which s/he travels, and a lot of traveling is certain to be done (and is done) across all points of the galaxy.

 

Except Shepard doesn't go across all of the galaxy. Shepard doesn't even go to a majority of the galaxy. And Shepard, being in a stealth vessel, is one of the least-attracting things around- hence why Reapers don't automatically come after you in any system you enter.

 

Shepard isn't going to 'accidentally' stumble across a deliberatly secret project any more than Shepard accidentally stumbles across the Crucible project, or Santcuary, or Cerberus station, or the Leviathans.

 

 

You're going to have to show your work on that, because it appears as if Shepard travels through many of the active primary and secondary relays across a rather wide spread of the galaxy.

 

 

ME1 codex alone establishes that 99% of space is unexplored, and we also know the that the places that Shepard does go are a non-exhaustive list because new systems with long-established colonies pop up all the time both across games and within games themselves.

 

'Primary relays' are irrelevant. The hiding spaces and working shops wouldn't be in the systems of any relays- they'd be in dark space or useless star systems some way off the network- like Cerberus and Geth do.
 
 

Incorrect. Telling someone where something vital is and to avoid said area will reduce the risk of drawing attention there. Like painting a wall or a canvas and telling someone to steer clear. They probably won't touch it anyway, but it's better that they know so they don't accidentally bump into it.

 

 

A warning sign isn't a means to hide something- it's a means to draw attention to the existence of thing. The only use drawing attention has is as a distraction from where you don't want them to look.

 

Hiding from the Reapers requires not being seen- not putting out warnings to VIPs of 'there's something very important right here.' Unless Shepard is going to be in proximity of the Arc as a given- and there's no reason to believe that any more than Shepard discovering the Crucible or Atlast Station or any other black project by accident- spreading the information unnecessarily only increases the risk.
 
 

Shepard wouldn't be looking for the ark project. Shepard would be steering clear of the ark project.

 

Shepard would already be steering clear of the Ark project unless Shepard was deliberatly looking for it. Shepard arbitrarily going his way to steer clear of arbitrary space would itself be an indicator of something to notice.

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, technically, we stopped the reapers in ME1 by destroying one of them. Of course we did it because Sovereign is just an idiot, who apparently did the one thing that made it vulnerable, but whatevers. 

There's nothing 'technically' about it- but it doesn't change Shepard's rhetoric either. Everyone agrees that stopping the Reapers is important- but Shepard never demonstrates any consistent means, way, or even preference.

[Dean_the_Young]

Shepard already knew the coordinates to the crucible otherwise how would he/she know where to send Mordin?

 

Easily- by referring Mordin to the people who can contact the people who do know where to send him. Which, helpfully, Liara can do.

 

It's called networking.
 

 

So I wouldn't be worried about Shepard leaking the location of the ark/ship/whatever project if he/she was told about the project.

 

And that would be why you would be a very poor security manager.

[Kabooooom]

Well, it wasn't supposed to. It was to hold two of every animal in the world. The world in that time to the people living there was just the valley. Just like how for a while the Americas, Australia, and Antarctica weren't seen as part of the world because they weren't discovered yet. But Bible studies lessons aside, I agree it is more likely to be a flotilla than an ark ship. After all, the leak mentioned a krogan colony ship, as in a colony ship just for the krogans. Why would it say that if we were all on the same ship. The fact we will be in a scouting ship of some kind is evidence of that, since I doubt we will be piloting a giant ark ship but merely a scouting vessel.

We've agreed on other things before, right? Right?

Sovereign's main gun was taken by the Turians, but it never mentioned the core being taken. Plus the part to make EDI that Cerberus would need from Sovereign is the core, since that would have where the intelligence was housed.

Two of every animal is still massively genetically nonviable. That's one of the things that makes the Biblical ark story so idiotic.

For a galactic ark to work, it would have to hold a minimum population for genetic viability of every sapient species that is hitching a ride. And grow enough food to accommodate all of them, and the dextro species would need their own food supply.

Logistics of the thing would be complicated. It's be a massive ship, or a flotilla of smaller but still large ships.

[themikefest]

Easily- by referring Mordin to the people who can contact the people who do know where to send him. Which, helpfully, Liara can do.

 

It's called networking.

Really? Shepard pops up her omnitool and says 'here's the coordinates to the crucible project'. Nothing about referring to other people to give him the location

 

https://youtu.be/nguicTLV8iQ?t=2m30s