55 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

In what universe is Mass Effect 2 a better RPG than either Vampire: Bloodlines or New Vegas? 

 

[Akrabra]

In what universe is Mass Effect 2 a better RPG than either Vampire: Bloodlines or New Vegas? 

 

This one? Obviously

[Eternal Phoenix]

The greatest list of all time:
 

Spoiler

 
Looking at the RPG list itself, I'm not sure if I can agree with Dark Souls at #1, seeing as it's much more of a console-oriented game; the PC port of the game is not well-regarded at all. I got it on PC during a Steam Sale and played for about five minutes. When it started telling me what buttons to push on my non-existent XBox controller, I decided that it wasn't worth it.

 
What's console oriented about it? The PC port was released in a crappy state but then again so was Skyrim and New Vegas on all platforms and they are still both on the list. Dark Souls for PC was later fixed too so even if it does have a controller layout, it's still a PC game now.
 

Finally! More people who understand that Fallout 1 > Fallout 2 and NV > 3 and that Mass Effect 2 is the best Mass Effect. With this in mind, I can overlook the list's flaws.

I agree too with the list here and that all of the non-Bethesda developed Fallout's are better than Fallout 3, also that Mass Effect 2 was the best Mass Effect. It was the perfect mix between action and role-playing IMO.
 

Baldur's Gate 1 and Icewind Dale aren't on the list. And seriously....Dark Souls in first spot? That is an action game.

 
*Action RPG.
 
Icewind Dale is an action RPG too, or at least it feels like Diablo just with Baldur's Gate combat. IIRC most of the game was just combat with little role-playing.
 
Dark Souls fits the definition of action-RPG - it has quests that react to player actions, decisions the player can make, character building and player customization. An action game would be Ninja Gaiden which only allows the player to swap weapons and level up base skills (i,e unlock new combos or increase health) but it doesn't allow the player to influence the story or interact with NPC's in different ways nor are there different builds or classes as there are in Dark Souls.
 
As one commenter in the article put it about Dark Souls and its roleplaying:
 
"Dark Souls has a lot of choices and consequences, but it doesn’t tell you they’re choices or that there’ll be consequences. I like that an awful lot."
 

(Normally you do actually know you're making a choice, it's just that the consequences aren't always evident or you won't realize what you've done until you've played the game a second time and made a different choice in the same situation to see a different outcome)

 

And personally I'd rather have Dark Souls at the top because it's legitimately a good game as opposed to Skyrim or Mass Effect which most of these lists throw at the top all the time because they are so popular. Mass Effect was a good game overall but the combat was utter tripe and none of your decisions mattered whereas in the sequel, your decisions did have consequences and the gameplay was much much better. Mass Effect 2 should always come first over Mass Effect 1.

 

In any case all these lists are just popular opinions half the time so it's refreshing to come across a list that puts another game from another develop at the top for once.

 

I personally like the list due to the butt hurt is has generated for putting a different game at the top for once (even if, as usual, I don't agree with the list overall, Skyrim wouldn't even be in mine for starters...)

[Liamv2]

Has Kotor but no Kotor 2. **** list confirmed.

[Akrabra]

Has Kotor but no Kotor 2. **** list confirmed.

Agreed, Kotor II deserves to be on the list.

[N7recruit]

No KoTor 2? 

 

Go sodomise a garbage disposal unit 

[Voxr]

 
What's console oriented about it? The PC port was released in a crappy state but then again so was Skyrim and New Vegas on all platforms and they are still both on the list. Dark Souls for PC was later fixed too so even if it does have a controller layout, it's still a PC game now.

Well the fact that FromSoft had little development experience with PCs and being a console developer. It was developed for consoles first, with the PC port being rushed and basically an afterthought. It also had/has terribad optimization (framerate cap, non adjustable res, the controls). 

[dreamgazer]

I'm noticing a lot of sequels/prior installments are missing from the list.  

 

Fallout 2 isn't there.  Baldur's Gate 1 isn't there. KOTOR 2 isn't there. Mass Effect 1 isn't there. Etc, etc. 

[In Exile]

I'm noticing a lot of sequels/prior installments are missing from the list.  

 

Fallout 2 isn't there.  Baldur's Gate 1 isn't there. KOTOR 2 isn't there. Mass Effect 1 isn't there. Etc, etc. 

 

Apart from doing D&D combat relatively well, I don't think there's a lot to BG1. But I'm not going to wade into this minefield more than that one. 

[dreamgazer]

Apart from doing D&D combat relatively well, I don't think there's a lot to BG1. But I'm not going to wade into this minefield more than that one.

Kinda agree, but there's more to it than some of the stuff at the bottom of the list, at least.

[In Exile]

Kinda agree, but there's more to it than some of the stuff at the bottom of the list, at least.

 

You're right. I didn't glance that closely at the whole list.  

[ruggly]

I played Risen for all of 12 minutes before I wanted to throw it through a window.

[Han Shot First]

Finally! More people who understand that Fallout 1 > Fallout 2 and NV > 3 and that Mass Effect 2 is the best Mass Effect. With this in mind, I can overlook the list's flaws.

 

It pains me every time I see one of these lists with Fallout 3 on it, but not Fallout 1 or 2. Both FO1 and FO2 were far superior games.

[In Exile]

I played Risen for all of 12 minutes before I wanted to throw it through a window.

 

I find that, like Gothic, it's just unplayable. More power to its fans, but man, not going anywhere near those games again. 

[ruggly]

I find that, like Gothic, it's just unplayable. More power to its fans, but man, not going anywhere near those games again. 

 

I think I only paid $2 or so for the game, but that was a wasted $2.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Well the fact that FromSoft had little development experience with PCs and being a console developer. It was developed for consoles first, with the PC port being rushed and basically and afterthought. It also had/has terribad optimization (framerate cap, non adjustable res, the controls). 

 

Apart from the settings and controls, it's an action RPG that belonged on PC from the start with its old school features.

[Voxr]

Apart from the settings and controls, it's an action RPG that belonged on PC from the start with its old school features.

Doesn't change the fact that the series itself was console oriented from the get go. And those two things, especially the controls are evidence of that.

[In Exile]

Apart from the settings and controls, it's an action RPG that belonged on PC from the start with its old school features.

 

So apart from all the stuff unique to PCs, it belonged on the PC because it was hard?

[Eternal Phoenix]

So a game that is on PC is not a PC game because it uses a controller and was a poor port? Gotcha.

 

Either way the person I was replying said the PC port was "not well regarded at all" but if we go by Metacritic user reviews (which are either hugely biased towards negativity or positivity both showing whether gamers were extremely disappointment or pleased with a game) then we find that's not the case. The game has a 7.3 user score from over 1,500 users. Additionally it has very positive reviews on both Amazon and Steam.

 

But if Dark Souls doesn't count as a PC game because it released originally in a poor state on the PC (which I originally mentioned with its controller layout so I don't know why I my own point is being repeated against me) then New Vegas and Skyrim don't count as games at all but rather software testing kits because of the states they originally released in.

 

Also by old school features I'm referring to the mechanics of the game. Difficulty is an entirely different topic and definition.

 

Unless by "PC games" you guys are referring to games with complete customizability in the settings and games that are only exclusive to PC in which case, we'll need to remove another 11 games from this list.

[Aimi]

ooooh, pointless trashy clickbait

I prefer hard copies; they're equally terrible, but you can get them from a library and they don't generate clicks or ad revenue

[Voxr]

Dark Souls is well regarded. The content and gameplay (once you can get up and running) is well regarded. The quality of the port wasn't. It is a poor port, but luckily it merits outshine it's faults. Which is where those favorable reviews come from. Because if you read any reviews back in 2012 when the Prepare to Die edition was released both critics and audiences panned the port, regardless of other critiques.



As to removing 11 other games from the list. Fine by me, BO3 wasn't on there = list invalid.

[In Exile]

So a game that is on PC is not a PC game because it uses a controller and was a poor port? Gotcha.

 

Either way the person I was replying said the PC port was "not well regarded at all" but if we go by Metacritic user reviews (which are either hugely biased towards negativity or positivity both showing whether gamers were extremely disappointment or pleased with a game) then we find that's not the case. The game has a 7.3 user score from over 1,500 users. Additionally it has very positive reviews on both Amazon and Steam.

 

But if Dark Souls doesn't count as a PC game because it released originally in a poor state on the PC (which I originally mentioned with its controller layout so I don't know why I my own point is being repeated against me) then New Vegas and Skyrim don't count as games at all but rather software testing kits because of the states they originally released in.

 

Also by old school features I'm referring to the mechanics of the game. Difficulty is an entirely different topic and definition.

 

Unless by "PC games" you guys are referring to games with complete customizability in the settings and games that are only exclusive to PC in which case, we'll need to remove another 11 games from this list.

I think a "PC RPG" has to be a game designed for the PC, to take advantage of the unique hardware advantages - including KBM/mouse inputs - relative to the period of time that it was released in. The list of the best PC RPGs would be different from the list of the best RPGs or the best RPGs that happen to also be released on PCs, but that's not a knock on any of the games. The original Half-Life, which was a masterpiece for its time, won't win Best RPG of all time ever, but that's not a quality issue. 

[Dio Demon]

I do agree with EP that Dark Souls is an Action RPG despite it sacrificing modern RPG elements to essentially fulfill the role playing experience which is that you're alone fighting against insurmountable odds and only through sheer skill can you survive. Though I disagree with it being top of the list and that is excluding the port.

 

Dark Souls does do a modern take on show not tell that most RPG's are unable to do. Though while this is good it doesn't make it the best RPG of all time. (this isn't me saying that Planescape should be at the top). Dark Souls isn't  a legendary game like some of those titles, though it is the game that carved out that niche genre of "Souls-like" games. (Yes I know about Demon Souls)

 

And we all know Bloodlines > ME any day.

 

 

I think a "PC RPG" has to be a game designed for the PC, 

That's the issue there is no universal criteria.

 

Bloodlines is virtually unplayable without a fan patch does that mean it's not a great PC RPG? 

[In Exile]

That's the issue there is no universal criteria.

 

Bloodlines is virtually unplayable without a fan patch does that mean it's not a great PC RPG? 

 

Well, sure, but that's because categories are mostly poorly fitting boxes anyway. But, yeah, I'd penalize games like Skyrim or Bloodlines or KoTOR 2 for being an unifinished mess that requires fan-made content to shine. More generally, though, I wouldn't come up with long lists about the best games of [insert category] ever, because I'm a simple guy who mostly just cares whether or not I'll like a product.