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Discussion Regarding the New Patch


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#1
Zander-o-

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Hello, everyone, 

This patch (1.09/U8) introduced two new difficulties and I started to wonder a bit about them. Just beware my English isn't great and this will be a long read. Buckle up, and enjoy the ride. (metaphors are not my strong point....)

 

Dragon Age, among other games, is based off of progression, and because of this the content needs constant renewal.

With that in mind, let's talk about Nightmare: This difficulty seems to be here to provide and justify exactly that, more progression. As Luke himself said (or maybe someone else, my memory isn't great) with new gear, comes new difficulties to use them on. This kind of thind is really needed, because as we get more and more advanced, the game becomes more and more stale, hence we lose the joy of conquering something -  be it your next level, a personal achievement or a challenge - or the joy of gaining something - mostly loot, but banners portraits and anything we can accumulate and show of also count.

 

To allow this revitalization, the developers put new content to be discovered and obtained, challenges to be completed or tried out and new experiences to be had. Even if a player doesn't focus on these - let's say plays for the sake playing - because of how humans work these things still may serve as motivators; normally we have more than only one reason for doing something, in many cases we want more reasons to do something.

 

The problem I see here is how this seems to be implemented, mostly on HB. You see, those things I listed are only sought after and provide joy because we perceive value on them, if this value is lost, or simply not perceived, then there no longer is a reason to try and attain them. That's why balance, among other things, is important for the long term.

 

Now on the matter of drop chance: Some time ago, drop chance was much worse than it is now, so obtaining gear was a nightmare, which, because of how the game works, made it more difficult to explore other sections of the game. As people couldn't obtain those items, which had value, they got frustrated. Some even quit the game. Some of the ones that stayed also didn't get the gear, so for quite a while many of these were locked to playing the easiest difficulty, or struggled a lot on the harder ones, which also caused frustration and as result some more stopped playing; In both cases, value was lost. The solution to this was increasing the drop chance, which thankfully was tweaked again in this update.

 

A problem that may have happened again on the launch of U8, is that the new level 26 items -  which are the "new" dragon weapons and rarest gear - were too rare - I've seen some say there is a 5% percent drop chance, which roughly means one super weapon per 20 dragon runs, basically you could complete 4/5 of the new dragon challenge without seeing a single weapon. Bioware actually noticed this, and Luke is to implement on the next monday a change to the drop chances. It will go from the original 5% to around 15-20% - this means, in a best case scenario, that you'll probably see a Hakkon weapon within your first five runs! Keeping this kind of balance is very important, if the new content is percieved as too inaccessible its value decreases and as a result fewer people will be seeking it. And this isn't good for anyone. 

 

On enemy behaviour: There is a very well known and hated mechanic in this game which is called knockdown - actually there are more mechanics like this, freeze and panic for example, but I'm going to concentrate on knockdown - , basically it is the capacity of interrupting any action and incapacitating the target for some time, often even being complemented with some damage. Players have this capacity as well as enemies. Because of this, damaging knockdowns have more value than a regular ability of the same damage. To maintain this balanced, frequently they have high mana/stamina cost or long animations. Fade Cloak, for example, has a delay between its cast and the damage/knockdown, Mighty Blow has a high stamina cost and long animation and moderate damage if not cast under a special condition. Furthermore, there are enemies immune to the knockdown, like bosses and brutes. These are the limitations imposed to players, but not many are shared with the enemies. The giant, for example, is capable to knock players to death by spamming this (hulk) smash, the Red Templar Behemoth has the same capacity, although not as often. Druffalo also has this, but with a sudden move that is not blockable and because of lag many times not avoidable, causing instant death. Even more aggravating, there are NO CLASSES as of now that are immune to this effect, causing some abilities to lose value, like Fallback Plan, or causing the need to use certain abilities, limiting builds - and therefore variety.

 

The HeartBreak(er): This difficulty seems designed to be the ultimate challenge, which is actually great! But the way it is executed is... problematic. As I discussed before, balance is pretty important for maintaining the long-term value of the content, and HB seems to have an extreme lack of this. Enemies are able to abuse incapacitating abilities, like the RTC's Crushing Leap on the Ventaori Brute (or RTK's, i'm talking about the Red Templar boss jump thing!), or the Fade Cloak of mages - it serves as a way to resist knockdowns, or avoid damage and status effects, to which some enemies are already immune! This increases the need for abilities to counter incapacitating effects and also decreasing the value of the player's incapacitating abilities. This limits greatly the variety of classes and abilities viable for this challenge mode, much more than it makes some underused abilities like War Horn desirable.

 

If you take the landscape of the playerbase into consideration this gets even more aggravated. Few players will have the gear or promotes to be able to hold the damage for long enough, or have sufficient coordination to tackle this mode head on. If you just consider the challenge factor, this problem is completely acceptable, as challenges - and I'm not talking about that UI section -  aren't made to be easy or accessible. They are made to be a target to be hit, something to be overcome and a source of joy when such is achieved. The issue is that the frustration of failing too many times for unbalanced reasons, or not being rewarded enough for the effort may very well harm this gamemode's longevity and how many players will play it, or actually be able to. This ends up locking part of the content, and prevents us from enjoying it at it's fullest. This is the problem that is not acceptable!

 

To end this chatter, I fear for how this content will turn out to be, and I ask the people from Bioware to really put these things into consideration, I don't want it to be easy, I don't want a huge nerf. Heck, I don't even know how HB will turn out to actually be (as we've been playing a easier and incomplete version). I just want to be able enjoy it, and i hope that the community is able to do so too, not only just a few players.

 

Thanks for anyone, that made it this far XD This was my second post ever >.> Also, sorry for any mistakes I may have committed, I'm not a game designer, neither speak English fluently, i'm just a fan (a pretty worried one)  :D

 

 

 

One final note. I'd like to thank Mortiel, he helped me to make this more coesive and supported me quite a bit. Just keep in mind, he didn't write this, and i don't represent him in any way or form. These are my ideas.


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#2
Pork

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Tldr please
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#3
Zander-o-

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what?

 

edit: Oh... Too long, didn't read

Well, that's what i said on the start of the post; it's long, no way it couldn't be.  ;)



#4
Pork

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what?

edit: Oh... Too long, didn't read
Well, that's what i said on the start of the post; it's is long, no way it couldn't be. ;)


I meant can you summerise it at the end?

#5
Theghostof_timmy

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The statement was the drop chance for t6 weapons will be 12.5% for the first one, with the chance decreasing for each subsequent weapon. It's to strike a balance between those who want to actually get a weapon and those who want to have something to look forward to for a long time. Pretty inspired, actually.

 

On HB: nobody's forcing you to do it. There isn't any gameplay reason to either, at this point. It's purely for those high level players who are obsessed with being challenged. Again, another very well crafted balance point between (relative) casuals who want new stuff and the masochistic, play-14-hours-a-day crowd.



#6
Zander-o-

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Extrapolating what you said, nobody is forcing me to play the game, i play it because i want to. The same applies to HB. As i said i don't want serious nerfs, just balance issues to be resolved, but if it truly is "purely for those high level players who are obsessed with being challenged" then I'd like to see some thing for the not so "masochistic, play-14-hours-a-day crowd". One can't say the rest of game is specificaly for this section of the playerbase, because the rest of the game is made for the playerbase in general, it is not specific. Something specificaly for the other part of the playerbase would be cool too.



#7
Theghostof_timmy

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then I'd like to see some thing for the not so "masochistic, play-14-hours-a-day crowd"

It's called nightmare.



#8
Zander-o-

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I meant can you summerise it at the end?

Summerising, i said the game has some serious balance issues that hurt the game's longevity and how much of the content can be enjoyed, i also tryed to prove this statement with some arguments.  :)



#9
Zander-o-

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It's called nightmare.

 

 

New Difficulties:

Nightmare: Step up from Perilous in every way.

 

Nightmare is the new perilous; it is here to justify the need for the new content (specificaly wepons) and to maintain it's relative power level like that of Dragon weapons, just imagine our new toys against enemies on perilous or lower, they are op there, just based on the damage. Also, NM is here to serve as a plataform for the new progression, see how the only way to obtain Hakkon wepons is from NM dragon and how many many people have been referring to NM as the new perilous.



#10
Theghostof_timmy

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Nightmare is the new perilous; it is here to justify the need for the new content (specificaly wepons) and to maintain it's relative power level like that of Dragon weapons, just imagine our new toys against enemies on perilous or lower, they are op there, just based on the damage. Also, NM is here to serve as a plataform for the new progression, see how the only way to obtain Hakkon wepons is from NM dragon and how many many people have been referring to NM as the new perilous.

I'm not sure what you're complaining about here. It's something like, Nightmare is too easy, Heartbreaker is too hard, I want to play heartbreaker without putting in the work so nerf it. If Hakkon weapons are so great, go snooze through Nightmare, get them and play HB.


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#11
Wavebend

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Nightmare is the new perilous; it is here to justify the need for the new content (specificaly wepons) and to maintain it's relative power level like that of Dragon weapons, just imagine our new toys against enemies on perilous or lower, they are op there, just based on the damage. Also, NM is here to serve as a plataform for the new progression, see how the only way to obtain Hakkon wepons is from NM dragon and how many many people have been referring to NM as the new perilous.

 

We're able to complete Heartbreaker with 30/30/30 promotions all-around. Just learn how to teamplay and learn how to use CC. There's a reason why I've spent tens of hours making a guide on this


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#12
Drasca

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We're able to complete Heartbreaker with 30/30/30 promotions all-around. Just learn how to teamplay and learn how to use CC. There's a reason why I've spent tens of hours making a guide on this

 

YESSS! work I don't have to do



#13
Thadrial

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I love all the new skills being used in heartbreaker and I could care less about all the resistances. The only issue I have is that venatori mages can cast barrier and fade cloak while they are stunned,frozen,knocked down, and paralyzed as far as I can tell. It's very annoying.



#14
Zander-o-

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Timmy, my final point was this

 

 

To end this chatter, I fear for how this content will turn out to be, and I ask the people from Bioware to really put these things into consideration, I don't want it to be easy, I don't want a huge nerf. Heck, I don't even know how HB will turn out to actually be (as we've been playing a easier and incomplete version). I just want to be able enjoy it, and i hope that the community is able to do so too, not only just a few players.

 

 

I want the content the developers put in the game to be enjoyed by as many people as possible. I never said, not even once, that the game should be easier, i never said NM was too easy or that HB was too hard, what i said is that there are some problems with the mechanics that are currenctly in place, and as i said, they take from the fun we have in the game. These mechanics include drop rate and enemy behaviour among other things. 

 

And where did i say you could go careless and just bash at enemies on NM? Hakkon weapons are strong, but we have difficulties that are hard, it's all there to keep things balanced. I said they were very powerfull or peilious and BELOW, not NM, not HB



#15
Zander-o-

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We're able to complete Heartbreaker with 30/30/30 promotions all-around. Just learn how to teamplay and learn how to use CC. There's a reason why I've spent tens of hours making a guide on this

I'm well aware that is possible to complete it without godlike stats, i have friends that have done it. My point is that there are some things that generate a LOT of frustation while playing HB, look at what Thadrial said. I just chose to talk about knockdown because it is very present on the other difficulties and we are used to it. The problem is that HB has so many of these, and many of them either are unbalanced or take from the fun we could be having.

 

Also, i don't want HB to be an easy task, i didn't even talk about completing it, my whole point was about playing it!

 

Also, CC is not everything, fade cloak, as far as i know, gives immunity to CC, just like it does to the players, so yeah.... you need more than CC an simple coordenation. Also, not all classes are able to do this, or do this effectively, which limits builds and class variety. See where I'm going? If you keep exapnding on this, my discussion is not only about the difficulty itself, it's also about the balance within the classes and why there is a concept of better and worst class in the community.

 

Ultimately, i want the game to be fun and enjoyable. If this is not possible in every field, it's ok, but at least a discussion was started about this.



#16
Wavebend

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Also, not all classes are able to do this, or do this effectively, which limits builds and class variety. See where I'm going?

 

I don't get your point.

 

Heartbreaker can be completed with almost any character, as long as each character in the team contributes in a meaningful way. Even the Alchemist can be decent (until wave 5).

 

 The problem is that HB has so many of these, and many of them either are unbalanced or take from the fun we could be having.

 

Then learn better sources of crowd control?

 

Also, CC is not everything, fade cloak, as far as i know, gives immunity to CC, just like it does to the players,

 

Wrong.

 

Ultimately, i want the game to be fun and enjoyable. If this is not possible in every field, it's ok, but at least a discussion was started about this.

 

Heartbreaker is not meant to be casualized. And it's already a bunch of fun compared to NM or easier difficulties.


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#17
Theghostof_timmy

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Heartbreaker is not meant to be casualized. 

This. The hardcore people need something hardcore to do. This is what heartbreaker is for. Nightmare and below is for regular joes. That's just how it is, and how it will remain. If you don't like it, don't play it. It doesn't get any simpler.


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#18
Zander-o-

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Heartbreaker can be completed with almost any character, as long as each character in the team contributes in a meaningful way. Even the Alchemist can be decent (until wave 5).

 Again, i'm not talking if you are able to complete it or not, i'm talking about how the run goes. And what does decent means for the alchemist? I'd like if you explained what you mean by that or just showed it. Also, how does it contribute? Did you have to use a very restrictive build?

 

Wrong.

So they aren't immune? Or is CC indeed everything? 

 

Then learn better sources of crowd control?

Take into consideration that I regarded Fade Cloak as giving them immunity, for example i saw mages not getting knockedown by mighty blow. Anyway, what are the sources of CC you considered? I might be wrong about this.



#19
Zander-o-

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This. The hardcore people need something hardcore to do. This is what heartbreaker is for. Nightmare and below is for regular joes. That's just how it is, and how it will remain. If you don't like it, don't play it. It doesn't get any simpler.

I am indeed a casual player, so my point of view is different from your, so i must ask, do you think that the abuse of those incapacitating effects is necessary for this to be challenging? Furthermore, do you think that build limitation is justified by the challenge HB provides?



#20
Theghostof_timmy

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I am indeed a casual player, so my point of view is different from your, so i must ask, do you think that the abuse of those incapacitating effects is necessary for this to be challenging? Furthermore, do you think that build limitation is justified by the challenge HB provides?

I'm not going to play heartbreaker, probably ever. Why? Because my interest is not in doing extreme challenges for bragging rights. It's designed to be the top end experience for the top 1%. Why is this difficult for you to understand? HB is for the Wavebends and Drascas, the Medallians and Ltrans, those people who can't rest until they are unbeatable by anything.

 

About the incapacitating effects, for the people this mode is designed for, yes. If you had read all the threads in the last few months speculating about new difficulties, you would have seen these sort of people saying they don't want a simple numbers increase, they want some kind of new mechanics that make the game more difficult. So Bioware did something to please everybody- Nightmare ( a simple numbers increase) for the plebs, HB (numbers + new mechanics) for the hardcores.

 

tl;dr HB isn't designed for you, or me. It's designed for the Wavebends of the world. Get over it.


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#21
Zander-o-

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Timmy and Wavebend, thank you for commenting on the HB part of my argumment, but is there anything else you disagree on? Or anything you actually agree? I talked a bit about some other stuff. Also, did you read the entire thing?

 

One last thing now.

Pork had an interesting point of view regarding this weekend's mob composition and difficulty generated by it.

 

No. Id rather play what i want.

 

Playing with what you want, as i see it, should be possible, so any character should be a viable option without hadcapping your team for any difficulty (please read as any character, not with any build)



#22
Theghostof_timmy

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Timmy and Wavebend, thank you for commenting on the HB part of my argumment, but is there anything else you disagree on? Or anything you actually agree? I talked a bit about some other stuff. Also, did you read the entire thing?

 

The statement was the drop chance for t6 weapons will be 12.5% for the first one, with the chance decreasing for each subsequent weapon. It's to strike a balance between those who want to actually get a weapon and those who want to have something to look forward to for a long time. Pretty inspired, actually.

 

Drop chance is fine. Classes are fine. It's a matter of doing what those classes are designed to do. Wavebend said it already.



#23
TheThirdRace

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do you think that the abuse of those incapacitating effects is necessary for this to be challenging?

Furthermore, do you think that build limitation is justified by the challenge HB provides?

 

Yes it is necessary. Heartbreaker is for the Elite, anything less than those incapacitating effects will make it a breeze for them.

 

You'll never be able to balance everything for multiple point of references (difficulties in this case). When the game launched, it was balanced toward Threatening. Now, it's more balanced toward Perilous where every character is doing just fine. If you change the point of reference to Threatening, it's now way overpowered. If you change the point of reference to Nightmare, a lot of builds are underpowered. The balanced has been designed for a fixed point, nothing will ever make it balance anywhere else. Had they balanced the game toward 1 "design" and scaled that design in aspects that involves skills instead of equipment and promotions, then it would be balanced for all difficulties. It's not done like that so we're left with what we have...


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#24
Zander-o-

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I'm not going to play heartbreaker, probably ever. Why? Because my interest is not in doing extreme challenges for bragging rights. It's designed to be the top end experience for the top 1%. Why is this difficult for you to understand? HB is for the Wavebends and Drascas, the Medallians and Ltrans, those people who can't rest until they are unbeatable by anything.

 

About the incapacitating effects, for the people this mode is designed for, yes. If you had read all the threads in the last few months speculating about new difficulties, you would have seen these sort of people saying they don't want a simple numbers increase, they want some kind of new mechanics that make the game more difficult. So Bioware did something to please everybody- Nightmare ( a simple numbers increase) for the plebs, HB (numbers + new mechanics) for the hardcores.

 

tl;dr HB isn't designed for you, or me. It's designed for the Wavebends of the world. Get over it.

It is incredibly hard for me to get over it. I have played HB and it has some AWESOME stuff, some stuff that makes the game MUCH more interesting. After you see a smord mook go flying into your face with Grapling Chain all the other sword mooks just seem.... lame. Or the amount of shiny effects the mages can cast everywhere on the map, the thing starts to look like a christmas tree. The problem I had with HB is that this kind of stuff and some other things are over used, if you aren't fast enough they blitzkrieg you into the fade, and when this starts to become a rule and starts to be overabused things gets ridiculous, it is because of this kind of thing you haven't even tried Hb! And this wasn't even it's final form.... When HB is done it is supposed to get even harder, and the other factions will get this kind of awesome stuff too. 

 

It makes me sad that only a small portion of the playerbase is going to experience this.... Bioware has been putting so much work on this, and it is so awesome, but because it seems to be designed to be unfair and unbalanced, and as people seem to percieve it that way, or at least see HB as designed to the Drasca's and Wavebend's out there, they will never experience this kind of stuff! 

 

As I said before, I want the content the developers at Bioware make to be enjoyed to its fullest and by as many people as possible. I don't mean completed, I don't mean mastered, and i don't mean bragging about it. Besides that, I didn't ever suggest a nerf! I only suggested them to keep an eye on it, make sure that HB is challenging AND balanced. Also, please answer my questions, do you think that the abuse of those incapacitating effects is necessary for this to be challenging? Furthermore, do you think that build limitation is justified by the challenge HB provides?



#25
Wavebend

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Playing with what you want, as i see it, should be possible, so any character should be a viable option without hadcapping your team for any difficulty

 

Have fun balancing a difficulty where you have to expect players not to:

 

1. Bring any support class

2. Bring any form of crowd control

3. Bring any DPS-oriented class

4. Play with good builds

 

Dragon Age has ALWAYS been about team composition and having each character fill a dedicated role (Tank, support, DPS, controller, etc.)

 

You want to create a hard difficulty that ignores all of that. Seriously?