49 réponses à ce sujet

[MileEnd]

But treasure room zombies and skellies always spawned where ever they wanted.

[Pork]

I dont get why this was even addressed. Id personally like to thank wavebend for making the demand for this to be done in the beta forums, conviently after he obtained all 5 hakkon weapons by... you guessed it, spawn camping!

[TheThirdRace]

I dont get why this was even addressed. Id personally like to thank wavebend for making the demand for this to be done in the beta forums, conviently after he obtained all 5 hakkon weapons by... you guessed it, spawn camping!

There's this weird behavior for some people that things should be incredibly hard just for the sake of it. They measure their self-esteem or "achievements" by how hard they had it.

The problem is, DAMP is a game, not some life achievement. Normal people don't have 40+ hours to dedicate to it every week, except for 0.0001% of the playerbase...

Spawn camping is "weird", it shouldn't exist in the first place and I understand why Bioware tried to fix it, but grinding 100+ hours for 5 weapons is even more ridiculous. I don't mind the difficulty (in the sense Nightmare is harder than Perilous), but eventually Bioware should realize that the reward should never exceed 5 hours of "work", this ain't a freaking MMO, stop trying to make DAMP one.

The solution is not to make grinding more important but to actually work and give us more end-game weapons that compare with what we already have. Hakkon weapons are all nice and all, but they introduce a new level of epicness which means we'll expect more of those kind of weapons in the future. Had they just made them relatively as good as what we had, we would have tripled the amount of good weapon for end-game with patch 8. Now, they unbalance everything again and restart the balance cycle all over again. Bad choice...

[Drasca]

Or just spawn all the enemies at once, what's wrong with that? Why exactly do we need these "trickle spawns", to make the waves last longer?

 

CTD / Game stability + Game design choices.

[Proto]

Thanks for the info. But, surely the xp for completion would be less?

 

Zan the Man has a Plan

 

Its much less XP...you kill less enemies.

 

Spawn camping is no worse than milking spawns. Leaderboarders constantly use ranged kits and just stand in specific spots farming enemies as they spawn in and trickle to the camp spot. Its common practice to maximize XP. 

 

Spawn camping was the exact opposite...far less XP for quicker completions. Not sure what the big deal was. Players had to be coordinated to stay in certain spots and the rest of the team had to be strong enough to hold down locations solo or in a small group. 

 

Anyway, I actually thought spawn changes weren't too bad. Action seemed a little less fragmented. But, there are still those 2-3 enemies that spawn in over and over once the majority of the zone has been cleared. That can be quite annoying.

[Beerfish]

People found and exploit and like any and all of these games as soon as it was discovered everyone and their dog exploited it.  BioWare took measures to rectify.  If it is evident that the fix is a huge problem they will make some other adjustment.  Or people will just get used to it.

[yarpenthemad21]

Its much less XP...you kill less enemies.
 
Spawn camping is no worse than milking spawns. Leaderboarders constantly use ranged kits and just stand in specific spots farming enemies as they spawn in and trickle to the camp spot. Its common practice to maximize XP. 
 
Spawn camping was the exact opposite...far less XP for quicker completions. Not sure what the big deal was. Players had to be coordinated to stay in certain spots and the rest of the team had to be strong enough to hold down locations solo or in a small group. 
 
Anyway, I actually thought spawn changes weren't too bad. Action seemed a little less fragmented. But, there are still those 2-3 enemies that spawn in over and over once the majority of the zone has been cleared. That can be quite annoying.

I would argue that milking isn't the same as blocking.
Milking is just fighting with everything possible to spawn, using the simplest possible tactic -> range attacks from start of map/other good spot. In most cases enemies which spawn from all sides aren't best idea.

Spawn blocking is more like skipping in other mmo when connected with dungeons. Skipping some part of content, skipping some part for either make it faster, easier or sometimes even both.
Not every dev in game like when content, which they made, is skipped. This sometimes could break some balance intended etc.

As my personal opinion I would w8 till weekend challenge end. Undead enemies (and templar all the time) could mess up with my "feeling" of those new spawn behavior.

[Cirvante]

I would argue that milking isn't the same as blocking.
Milking is just fighting with everything possible to spawn, using the simplest possible tactic -> range attacks from start of map/other good spot. In most cases enemies which spawn from all sides aren't best idea.

Spawn blocking is more like skipping in other mmo when connected with dungeons. Skipping some part of content, skipping some part for either make it faster, easier or sometimes even both.
Not every dev in game like when content, which they made, is skipped. This sometimes could break some balance intended etc.

As my personal opinion I would w8 till weekend challenge end. Undead enemies (and templar all the time) could mess up with my "feeling" of those new spawn behavior.

 

The funny thing about the spawn changes is that now every run is an exp run, even if you have melee characters standing in spawn points killing everything. It certainly worked very well for the double xp weekend.

[Proto]

I would argue that milking isn't the same as blocking.
Milking is just fighting with everything possible to spawn, using the simplest possible tactic -> range attacks from start of map/other good spot. In most cases enemies which spawn from all sides aren't best idea.

Spawn blocking is more like skipping in other mmo when connected with dungeons. Skipping some part of content, skipping some part for either make it faster, easier or sometimes even both.
Not every dev in game like when content, which they made, is skipped. This sometimes could break some balance intended etc.

As my personal opinion I would w8 till weekend challenge end. Undead enemies (and templar all the time) could mess up with my "feeling" of those new spawn behavior.

 

I can respect that argument. 

 

I think it will be interesting to see how spawns operate without the weekend event as well.

 

I still don't think it was really a necessary fix, but I have no issue with it. The majority of the time conscious spawn-camping for speed runs took place pre-change was to stop the trickle spawns. Like the one on Zone 3 FC where you have to run back and forth across that bridge umpteen times. The XP maximizing method used the same mechanics as spawn-camping. Instead they just blocked all but one spawn point forcing all the mobs to come from one direction. Its the same concept/exploit. Just a different goal.

[Phazael]

There is a general issue with games like this when the devs start reacting to the cat asses.  The bulk of the player base are not doing 40+ promotions in every class and speed running to maximize the weapon farms.  We are not spawn blocking or using other exploits to manipulate XP gain or item gains.  We will never see anything above Perilous (mostly not above threatening) because we don't have 50 extra points in every stat and full sets of purple HoK gear that the higher difficulties require.  The casual pickup crowd, those of us who log on long enough to bang out the weekend stuff and then do other things, were not using the spawn squatting.  It is the bleeding edge basement dweller crowd that will always find ways to break the game, anyhow.

 

Stop catering to that crowd.  Put time into tweaking things that affect the average player, not the folks with so much extra Con and WP that they could likely solo Perlious with starter gear.  If you only cater to that group and ignore the wider user base, you will end up with just those people playing and the game will dry up pretty fast.  You can never stay ahead of them anyhow, so don't bother.  At least not until class balance has been ironed out and some more content (beyond new purples that those people will have in under a day and be bitching about) for people to mess around with, even if its just some new classes.  The bulk of the userbase was NOT playing Perilous.  Did there really need to be two difficulties above that, rather than making the transition to Perilous a smoother one?

 

The issue here all comes back to the promotions.  Getting free stat points, often (on the top grinders) resulting in larger bonuses than the best gear in the game, breaks anything they can do with the item system.  Right now, they are addressing the symptoms of the issue a small group are using to their advantage, rather than the root cause.

[Proto]

Put time into tweaking things that affect the average player

 

Luke has done nothing but help the average player. He's created loot tables that actually create progression. He's increased armor values making Threatening/Perilous much more accessible to beginners and even more so for average players. He's made great weapons much more available and attainable through chests and in-game bosses. All of these changes make the transition to Perilous and beyond much easier than pre-changes.

 

I would wager 20% of DAMP's player base has put in 80% of its total hours. The new difficulties are perfect additions that were needed for this group to continue to enjoy the game.

 

Not sure what you have an issue with....or what more you want him to do for the average player?

[Aetika]

There is a general issue with games like this when the devs start reacting to the cat asses.  The bulk of the player base are not doing 40+ promotions in every class and speed running to maximize the weapon farms.  We are not spawn blocking or using other exploits to manipulate XP gain or item gains.  We will never see anything above Perilous (mostly not above threatening) because we don't have 50 extra points in every stat and full sets of purple HoK gear that the higher difficulties require.  The casual pickup crowd, those of us who log on long enough to bang out the weekend stuff and then do other things, were not using the spawn squatting.  It is the bleeding edge basement dweller crowd that will always find ways to break the game, anyhow.

 

Stop catering to that crowd.  Put time into tweaking things that affect the average player, not the folks with so much extra Con and WP that they could likely solo Perlious with starter gear.  If you only cater to that group and ignore the wider user base, you will end up with just those people playing and the game will dry up pretty fast.  You can never stay ahead of them anyhow, so don't bother.  At least not until class balance has been ironed out and some more content (beyond new purples that those people will have in under a day and be bitching about) for people to mess around with, even if its just some new classes.  The bulk of the userbase was NOT playing Perilous.  Did there really need to be two difficulties above that, rather than making the transition to Perilous a smoother one?

 

The issue here all comes back to the promotions.  Getting free stat points, often (on the top grinders) resulting in larger bonuses than the best gear in the game, breaks anything they can do with the item system.  Right now, they are addressing the symptoms of the issue a small group are using to their advantage, rather than the root cause.

 

It´s true that not many players were using this exploit, but as Proto said, the major nerf perilous took is very significant step and it was certainly made  to make perilous more viable for average players and for that Luke has big    plus from me. So it would seem unfair to suggest they don´t think about them.

Bioware were always very unhappy with camping(or so it seems), so it doesn´t surprise me they are trying to stop it with all their might. I just wish they can come up with something more organic then this, because it often feels like ping pong with enemies spawning left, then right, then left again.

[coldflame]

All they need to do is to wait until someone move from 1 spawn point then spawn the units out of sight. "Cancelling" the spawns if someone is near is completely ridiculous. Problem solved.

 

You would've thought that they would at least use the same system as ME3MP, right? bioware never ceased to amaze in game design. Lol,

[yarpenthemad21]

They changed spawns in some way. Hard to say, got only typical pug game, without cordinated attempt of blocking anything but enemies definitely don't spawn as they were spawning during weekend challenge.
Looks like "normal" radius, on the other hand I've wasted a lot of time running around killing single enemies on FC so I think that there are some changes made.

[Pork]

They changed spawns in some way. Hard to say, got only typical pug game, without cordinated attempt of blocking anything but enemies definitely don't spawn as they were spawning during weekend challenge.
Looks like "normal" radius, on the other hand I've wasted a lot of time running around killing single enemies on FC so I think that there are some changes made.

 

 

[Cirvante]

The bulk of the userbase was NOT playing Perilous.  Did there really need to be two difficulties above that, rather than making the transition to Perilous a smoother one?

 

But they did do that.

 

They increased the armor values and buffed guard. Perilous often feels like threatening now.

[MileEnd]

They changed spawns in some way. Hard to say, got only typical pug game, without cordinated attempt of blocking anything but enemies definitely don't spawn as they were spawning during weekend challenge.
Looks like "normal" radius, on the other hand I've wasted a lot of time running around killing single enemies on FC so I think that there are some changes made.

 

 

But treasure room zombies and skellies always spawned where ever they wanted.

 

No more zombies

[Proto]

Spawns seem to be back to normal.

[Phazael]

What could they do more for the average or starting player?  Well the ridiculous loot grind that makes a slave to the RNG.  I realize this is meant to drive people to spend on the microtransactions, but all its really doing is making the casuals (the people who didn't spawn block their way to 100+ promotions) bored.  Yeah its easier to just slap in bigger numbers and a few extra new purples, but the same people who were bored before chew through that in a weeks time and you are back to square one.  The fact that the entire game revolves around HoK for most classes as you progress means you essentially get trapped in lower difficulties until you get some of those drops, even if you poop sock your way to 100 Con promotions.

 

And the perilous adjustments were not really a nerf as much as a rebalance the disparity between casters and mele, which was frankly ludicrous prior to that adjustment.  Though I think the Reaver and Avvar are massively strong to all other classes now, at least in noob play sub nightmare.  Considering the cat asses are all using wizards, Avvar, and Reavers at NM and above, I am guessing its not much different in the pros.

[BigFoxHole]

Wow, I didnt even know you could do all these things in this game. I just crank it up and go kill badies. I didnt even know what "spawn camping" was until I read this forum post...is that even a real exploit?

[Cirvante]

Wow, I didnt even know you could do all these things in this game. I just crank it up and go kill badies. I didnt even know what "spawn camping" was until I read this forum post...is that even a real exploit?

 

Spawn camping is simply the opposite of exp runs. In one your entire party camps in a specific spot to maximize the number of enemies spawned for maximum exp. In the other you have players blocking specific spawn positions in order to minimize the number of enemies spawned and thus speed up the run. It's all about efficiency.

[coldflame]

There's this weird behavior for some people that things should be incredibly hard just for the sake of it. They measure their self-esteem or "achievements" by how hard they had it.

The problem is, DAMP is a game, not some life achievement. Normal people don't have 40+ hours to dedicate to it every week, except for 0.0001% of the playerbase...

Spawn camping is "weird", it shouldn't exist in the first place and I understand why Bioware tried to fix it, but grinding 100+ hours for 5 weapons is even more ridiculous. I don't mind the difficulty (in the sense Nightmare is harder than Perilous), but eventually Bioware should realize that the reward should never exceed 5 hours of "work", this ain't a freaking MMO, stop trying to make DAMP one.

The solution is not to make grinding more important but to actually work and give us more end-game weapons that compare with what we already have. Hakkon weapons are all nice and all, but they introduce a new level of epicness which means we'll expect more of those kind of weapons in the future. Had they just made them relatively as good as what we had, we would have tripled the amount of good weapon for end-game with patch 8. Now, they unbalance everything again and restart the balance cycle all over again. Bad choice...

 

Can you get Hakkon weapons via buying chests? If you could then I think we all know why it takes 100+ hours for 5 weapons.

[aki477]

I'm still pretty new but I honestly thought standing near the spawn points was a tactical move (to prevent from being swarmed by arrows from both sides) not an exploitive one. I didn't know it decreased the number of spawns and experience. Now I don't know whether it's ok to stand near those points anymore. :s

[Courtnehh]

I would argue that milking isn't the same as blocking.
Milking is just fighting with everything possible to spawn, using the simplest possible tactic -> range attacks from start of map/other good spot. In most cases enemies which spawn from all sides aren't best idea.

Spawn blocking is more like skipping in other mmo when connected with dungeons. Skipping some part of content, skipping some part for either make it faster, easier or sometimes even both.
Not every dev in game like when content, which they made, is skipped. This sometimes could break some balance intended etc.

As my personal opinion I would w8 till weekend challenge end. Undead enemies (and templar all the time) could mess up with my "feeling" of those new spawn behavior.

You can also argue that when you milk spawns for XP you stand on a ranged spot that keeps the enemies all spawning in one direction that the team can focus their attacks on, doing this inadvertently blocks back spawns.

 

You make a good point though.

[Phazael]

If mages could withstand a couple hits at higher diff without having 100 extra con, the paratroop stuff would not be as egregious.  The stabby guys are practically an ME3 style sync kill for ANY class unless you have piles of CON.  The main enjoyment my wife and I get out of this game comes primarily from doing a controlled dungeon crawl (we could care less about the epeen stroke fest), but this breaks it unless we are both playing obviously OP classes.