That's actually kind of the point of my half-kidding post from the beginning.
What would bringing this element into ME accomplish, really?
I'm rather inclined to agree with Hazegurl's rebuttal; does it need to accomplish anything? If bioware wanted to include a trans character just for the sake of it; because someone on the writing staff liked the character concept and wanted to include it, does it need a greater goal than that?
I'm rather agree with Hazegurl's rebuttal; does it need to accomplish anything? If bioware wanted to include a trans character just for the sake of it; because someone on the writing staff liked the character concept and wanted to include it, does it need a greater goal than that?
So if I understand this correctly, the issue some people have with romancing a transsexual character in Mass Effect: Andromeda is: how can it be brought up to the player without breaking immersion?
In a future setting like this, yes. The topic would need to be brought up for it to even be a character trait, and we're dealing with tech/bio advancements that'll makes such issues obsolete. The space within which a character would conform to contemporary perceptions of what defines a transgendered individual would be incredibly narrow.
I think you have a certain pre-conception of what a trans character would be and what their story arc and romance arc would be that's rather limited.
It is the future we're talking about. A future where, conceivably, medical science has advanced to the point where gender reasignment methods, either hormone based or surgical based, are quicker, easier, cheaper, more readily available, and have better results than the methods available today.
That is, of course, ignoring the fact that not all transgender individuals today go through such methods, and not all who do go "all the way" for complete reassignment surgery for various reasons. Sometimes out of fear of botched surgery and sometimes simply because they don't feel they need to. In the latter case, I don't see that stopping even with advances in medical technology. It's also assuming that the technology has advanced very far in these areas - medical technology in ME is better but it isn't perfect and hasn't overcome every hurtle, and it's established that there's also still social class separation in the future that might mean the technology isn't evenly available to everyone.
And of course there is the fact that we haven't at all explored what human society in Mass Effect thinks of trans individuals; one could take the general mum on the subject along with the acceptance of homosexual relations to say this is a nonissue, but some might argue that's something of a cop out answer.
At the very least, this idealized world where transitioning methods are easy and streamlined and society is perfectly accepting could be seen as an opportunity to cater to some wish-fulfillment for trans gamers, though conversations I've had with trans gamers in regards to fantasy settings tend not to like magical gender reassignment spells because they feel it minimizes or trivializes the reality of what they go through; same basic reasoning for why none of the super geniuses in Marvel or DC comics have come up with cures for cancer or AIDS; to avoid trivializing the suffering of real people.
I got to rambling a bit there, but the point is this; even if the methods are easier and society is more accepting, trans individuals are still going to exist. And given that Bioware hasn't laid down any lore on it, the assumption that it's gotten easier to the point of not being worth mentioning is just that; an assumption.
I'm for it personally, so long as it's not done simply for tokenism and the writing ends up being shitty as all hell.
If it does happen though, whoever writes the character should consult with actual trans people to get their viewpoints, rather then have them go off on their own presumptions.
Besides, given ME's time period, science would've progressed pretty far in this regard. The fact that canonically there's a machine to remove scars and in our own world 3d printing of organs is being pursued means that -- theoretically -- 200 years later we'd be further along.
In a future setting like this, yes. The topic would need to be brought up for it to even be a character trait, and we're dealing with tech/bio advancements that'll makes such issues obsolete. The space within which a character would conform to contemporary perceptions of what defines a transgendered individual would be incredibly narrow.
I get your point. A trans woman is a woman and a trans man is a man so there would be no point in letting the player know they were even trans to begin with. And I agree, why bring it up? But not all trans people want to transition. So I suppose that's the type BW could focus on if they decide to add a transgendered character and/or romance.
Actually Former_fiend beat me to it. lol!
So if I understand this correctly, the issue some people have with romancing a transsexual character in Mass Effect: Andromeda is: how can it be brought up to the player without breaking immersion?
I don't necessarily see it as a problem because I don't look at Mass Effect as presenting a utopian future where we've overcome all of our issues. We've made serious progress and internal racism, sexism, and homophobia aren't nearly as prevalent as they are today, but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't exist anymore, just that they've been superseded by xenophobia.
Point being, I don't think Bioware presenting transgenderism as being a big enough deal to be worth mentioning, but maybe not so big a deal as to revolve an entire character arc around, would break immersion.
I think you have a certain pre-conception of what a trans character would be and what their story arc and romance arc would be that's rather limited.
It is the future we're talking about. A future where, conceivably, medical science has advanced to the point where gender reasignment methods, either hormone based or surgical based, are quicker, easier, cheaper, more readily available, and have better results than the methods available today.
That is, of course, ignoring the fact that not all transgender individuals today go through such methods, and not all who do go "all the way" for complete reassignment surgery for various reasons. Sometimes out of fear of botched surgery and sometimes simply because they don't feel they need to. In the latter case, I don't see that stopping even with advances in medical technology. It's also assuming that the technology has advanced very far in these areas - medical technology in ME is better but it isn't perfect and hasn't overcome every hurtle, and it's established that there's also still social class separation in the future that might mean the technology isn't evenly available to everyone.
And of course there is the fact that we haven't at all explored what human society in Mass Effect thinks of trans individuals; one could take the general mum on the subject along with the acceptance of homosexual relations to say this is a nonissue, but some might argue that's something of a cop out answer.
At the very least, this idealized world where transitioning methods are easy and streamlined and society is perfectly accepting could be seen as an opportunity to cater to some wish-fulfillment for trans gamers, though conversations I've had with trans gamers in regards to fantasy settings tend not to like magical gender reassignment spells because they feel it minimizes or trivializes the reality of what they go through; same basic reasoning for why none of the super geniuses in Marvel or DC comics have come up with cures for cancer or AIDS; to avoid trivializing the suffering of real people.
I got to rambling a bit there, but the point is this; even if the methods are easier and society is more accepting, trans individuals are still going to exist. And given that Bioware hasn't laid down any lore on it, the assumption that it's gotten easier to the point of not being worth mentioning is just that; an assumption.
As long as the character is interesting and has more to them than the one point, I can't say as I particularly care a whole lot.
It is the future though and we have floating jellyfish, tiny ammonia based bowling balls, and blue chicks that constantly tell us to "embrace eternity" before doing a Vulcan mind meld. I can't imagine that a woman who feels like she should be a man would be seen as all that abnormal in such a galaxy.
I get your point. A trans woman is a woman and a trans man is a man so there would be no point in letting the player know they were even trans to begin with. And I agree, why bring it up? But not all trans people want to transition. So I suppose that's the type BW could focus on if they decide to add a transgendered character and/or romance.
Why even jump the hurdles, though?
As you've clearly illustrated, the existence of what we consider to be transgendered individuals in contemporary society, already an astronomically small percentage, will be narrower and narrower with advancements in science and options at people's disposal. Crafting this character would involve tapping a niche of a niche of a niche, and would have to clumsily work against the setting just to tell their story that ... somehow isn't that big of a deal and would emerge organically?
See, I don't think I illustrated that at all. If I did then I might have skirted the topic a bit.
What we consider transgender is a person who's gender identity clashes with their biological sex/what they were assigned as at birth. Improving the methods for that transition between the two, for those who choose to fully undergo that transition, doesn't change the fact that the transition takes place. Medical technology may, hypothetically, get to the point where the transition is easier than it is today and the results are, for lack of a better word, more convincing, but that doesn't change the fact that the person made the transition and is a trans individual. They are, for all intents and purposes, the gender they now identify as, but however easy or difficult it was, they had to go through a transition to get there, which gives them a unique experience on the whole thing.
Part of my point is that each and every character is a niche to some extent because they're all individuals. Samantha didn't represent the whole of the lesbian experience in the Mass Effect universe, Steve didn't represent the whole of the gay male experience. None of Ashley, Kaiden, Jack, Miranda, Jacob, Kasumi, Zaeed, or Vega represented the whole of the human experience. Just slices of it. Niches.
And yes, I think it is possible to have a trans individual who acknowledges the transition they went through offer us a different perspective on life in the Mass Effect universe, be an interesting and compelling character with depth beyond the fact that they're trans, and have that be organic. I'm not saying that would be an easy thing to write, by any stretch of the imagination, which is part of why I don't think it should be included unless someone on the writing staff feels passionately about including it. If it's a story they really want to tell and handle with care, then yes, I'm all for it's inclusion.
As long as the character is interesting and has more to them than the one point, I can't say as I particularly care a whole lot.
It is the future though and we have floating jellyfish, tiny ammonia based bowling balls, and blue chicks that constantly tell us to "embrace eternity" before doing a Vulcan mind meld. I can't imagine that a woman who feels like she should be a man would be seen as all that abnormal in such a galaxy.
I don't especially care either. as I don't go out of my way to request new romances like most. I just wanted to see what the fuss was about.
Yes, but only if it's a surprise lol.
"Ay gurl, dat ass got me like--"
"Ay yo, I got a penis."
*shrugs*
See, I don't think I illustrated that at all. If I did then I might have skirted the topic a bit.
What we consider transgender is a person who's gender identity clashes with their biological sex/what they were assigned as at birth. Improving the methods for that transition between the two, for those who choose to fully undergo that transition, doesn't change the fact that the transition takes place. Medical technology may, hypothetically, get to the point where the transition is easier than it is today and the results are, for lack of a better word, more convincing, but that doesn't change the fact that the person made the transition and is a trans individual. They are, for all intents and purposes, the gender they now identify as, but however easy or difficult it was, they had to go through a transition to get there, which gives them a unique experience on the whole thing.
Part of my point is that each and every character is a niche to some extent because they're all individuals. Samantha didn't represent the whole of the lesbian experience in the Mass Effect universe, Steve didn't represent the whole of the gay male experience. None of Ashley, Kaiden, Jack, Miranda, Jacob, Kasumi, Zaeed, or Vega represented the whole of the human experience. Just slices of it. Niches.
And yes, I think it is possible to have a trans individual who acknowledges the transition they went through offer us a different perspective on life in the Mass Effect universe, be an interesting and compelling character with depth beyond the fact that they're trans, and have that be organic. I'm not saying that would be an easy thing to write, by any stretch of the imagination, which is part of why I don't think it should be included unless someone on the writing staff feels passionately about including it. If it's a story they really want to tell and handle with care, then yes, I'm all for it's inclusion.
Sure, you did, by acknowledging the refinement of science. Think about where we were 170 years ago, and picture where we'll be 170 years from now. Also, think about all the genetics work emphasized in ME1, from gene therapy on unborn children to the bottomless pit of research on Noveria. Hell, you can even cure death with enough credits.
Again, though, why jump through those hurdles? Part of this leads into my reply to Haze. How would it be brought up? Why would it be brought up? Why isn't science involved? Why would it even matter to the PC (not the player)? Beyond romantic interest in a transgender character who's not interested in transitioning, what's the reasoning for it being a thing?
Of course the character would have depth beyond being trans. That's not in question. What is, at least from me, is whether this trait is meaningful and self-aware enough to emphasize in this future setting.
I'm not equipped to answer these questions because I'm not on Bioware's writing staff. If these are questions they don't have satisfactory answers for, I can see that as being a reason they might decide not to include a character like this.
But just because I don't have those answers doesn't mean they couldn't exist. I could think of several answers for each of them given proper time and motivation, but it would all be speculation and hypotheticals on my part, and I'm not paid to do that.
What I do think is that transgenderism is a trait that's meaningful in real life and part of the purpose of Science Fiction is exploring real life issues. The fact that it's a futuristic setting doesn't negate issues that we struggle with in real life; it gives us a tool to explore those issues.
I am not sure a Sci-Fi setting is even viable for a Transgender character as we know it today. With the advances in Biological engineering in the ME setting and the fact that technology is so advance the lazareth project is possible would Transgender even be a thing? You are A gender in B body? Go to the doctor and now you are A gender in A body. What are the issues that face the Transgender community when technology is this advance? When people can change their appearance at a whim like the Doctor Garus is hunting, does in ME1. Do the difficulties that Transgender people struggle with even arise in the ME setting? I highly doubt gender reassignment in ME setting is an issue, when the technology is so advance and people are exposed to vastly different alien views on sex, reproduction and gender. The asari are monogendered so the idea that there are only two genders isn't even a universal constant someone can make as an argument anymore. So would gender reassignment even come up with people in conversation?
It seems to me that a modern day or fantasy setting is more fitting to Transgender characters and exploration of the trans community simply because there is no magic technological fix to feeling like you have the wrong body. So this has a fundamental impact of Trans individuals. But in the ME setting I don't think it would because you can easily feel like you have the right body by changing it. I think it is important to have a story to tell with a Transgender romance vs just having a transgender romance just for the sake of checking the box of having a transgender romance.
They are a monogendered All FEMALE species that can produce offspring with ANY Gender of ANY Species including themselves
But can they make a good sandwich?
As long as the character is interesting and has more to them than the one point, I can't say as I particularly care a whole lot.
It is the future though and we have floating jellyfish, tiny ammonia based bowling balls, and blue chicks that constantly tell us to "embrace eternity" before doing a Vulcan mind meld. I can't imagine that a woman who feels like she should be a man would be seen as all that abnormal in such a galaxy.
It's not a matter of what is odd. It's a matter on what BioWARE is going to shovel down our throats.
for the 4th or 5th time chracter first gender second.
....not what I had in mind
for the 4th or 5th time chracter first gender second.
Remember, to SJW's, there is no character, there's just "the acknowledgement of others" with a varyingly hidden resentment for the whiter, male-r, and straighter you are.
thats what pisses me off. you cant make a letcherous abusive drunk woman you cant make a Female Kane and Lynch. sure you could.. but only if your chromosones are XX .
Sure you can make a Trans character but the consensus here has been make them a character not just a posterchild.
They do? damit i thaught we got rid of 'em in the 60s.
like we said over and over we woulnt be bothered if its done right and they are a character first and gender second.
This is messed up at so many levels, It's like Hitler thinking he got rid of all the Jews.
Diversity, Asari are basically trans. Why not humans? I'm guessing it would be accepted in that time frame if anything, hell in the future the surgeries may have most trans looking like this
OMG CARMEN CARRERA
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