910 réponses à ce sujet

[Heathen Oxman]

You're cherry picking. I never said everything about masculinity and femininity is rooted in biology. Only most of it is. Yes, the arbitrary stuff are mostly the result of social constructs, but a lot of the less arbitrary stuff isn't.

 

Heterosexual men (and I assume lesbian women) are attracted to feminine traits. Heterosexual women (and gay men) are attracted to masculine traits. This is true for all mammalian life on earth.

There is a ton of evidence that supports that transgenderism is a mental illness. One only has to look.

 

https://en.wikipedia...ender_dysphoria

http://psychcentral....horia-symptoms/

https://www.psycholo...entity-disorder

 

http://www.nlm.nih.g...icle/001527.htm

http://cnsnews.com/n...rder-sex-change

 

 

You said: "Masculine and feminine aren't arbitrary. They are traits that we consistently see in all species on earth, especially mammalian species, even more so in primates and even more so in humans."

 

You didn't qualify your statement with "most" or "some."

 

As to the rest, it boils down to, some people say it's a mental illness; therefore, it's a mental illness.

 

Me = not impressed.

[Heathen Oxman]

A half-truth at best.

 

Laws and definitions don’t change only when evidence dictates. Humans are too emotionally driven for that. They change when those placed in positions of authority to make such changes are in some sort of internal consensus. Also, evidence by its very nature is open to interpretation. Individuals within the same authoritative body might have wildly different views on what the evidence actually means. But, they still have to make a decision, therefore simply majority often wins.

 

I don’t know enough about the science involved to make any sort of declaration about how to define transgenderism in the eyes of psychology. I do have serious doubts that you’ve collected “all the evidence” on this issue. I also know that throughout my entire life no issues has had “all the evidence” be stacked on one side. The fact that there is even a debate should be evidence enough of this.

 

I don’t even want to get into how hard it is to get prevailing theories in academia changed (a problem most often pointed out by other academics). A depressing amount of evidence in our scientific community goes unused or unacknowledged. That, however, is a whole other conversation…

 

/discussion

[The Heretic of Time]

You said: "Masculine and feminine aren't arbitrary. They are traits that we consistently see in all species on earth, especially mammalian species, even more so in primates and even more so in humans."

 

You didn't qualify your statement with "most" or "some."

 

As to the rest, it boils down to, some people say it's a mental illness; therefore, it's a mental illness.

 

Me = not impressed.

 

I didn't think it was needed for me to outright state that I was only talking about the biological masculine and feminine and not the social constructs around them.

 

And it;s not just some people, these are scientists, doctors and psychologists. These people studied this stuff. They aren't just pulling it out of their asses.

 

Honestly, why do you have such a big problem with the fact that transgenderism (or "gender dysphoria" as they seemingly call it now) is considered a mental illness by medical and legal definitions? Why do you want to change that? It doesn't help anybody. It only hurts the real transgender people who are suffering and need treatment, which they are only getting for free because transgenderism is considered a mental illness.

[Heathen Oxman]

Just to point this out, "disorder" does not mean "you are less of a person." It also doesn't mean "you have a disease that needs to be cured;" lots of disorders have no cure.

 

Absolutely true.

 

Personally, I've been diagnosed with autism, ADHD, low frustration tolerance, depression, and "gender issues."  I don't feel like any of it makes me less of a person.

 

My point is, in my experience, what qualifies as a "disorder" is a murky grey area that comes down to popular opinion more often than not.

[Heathen Oxman]

I didn't think it was needed for me to outright state that I was only talking about the biological masculine and feminine and not the social constructs around them.

 

And it;s not just some people, these are scientists, doctors and psychologists. These people studied this stuff. They aren't just pulling it out of their asses.

 

Honestly, why do you have such a big problem with the fact that transgenderism (or "gender dysphoria" as they seemingly call it now) is considered a mental illness by medical and legal definitions? Why do you want to change that? It doesn't help anybody. It only hurts the real transgender people who are suffering and need treatment, which they are only getting for free because transgenderism is considered a mental illness.

 

I respond to what people actually say, not what they MEAN to say.

 

As for my interest, it's purely intellectual.  I was prompted to respond to this thread because you felt the need to call-out genderqueer people.

 

To the main thrust of this thread: I couldn't care less if they do or do not include a TG romance in MEA.

[The Heretic of Time]

Just to point this out, "disorder" does not mean "you are less of a person." It also doesn't mean "you have a disease that needs to be cured;" lots of disorders have no cure.

 

No one said that people with a disorder are lesser people, but that seems to be the logica leap that a lot of "progressives" make. They hear the word "disorder" and are automatically offended. Which doesn't make any sense to me.

 

I'm baffled as to why people object to transgenderism being considered a mental disorder and even go as far as to wanting to change that definition. Why? Who are you helping with that?

[In Exile]

And it;s not just some people, these are scientists, doctors and psychologists. These people studied this stuff. They aren't just pulling it out of their asses.

 

Honestly, why do you have such a big problem with the fact that transgenderism (or "gender dysphoria" as they seemingly call it now) is considered a mental illness by medical and legal definitions? Why do you want to change that? It doesn't help anybody. It only hurts the real transgender people who are suffering and need treatment, which they are only getting for free because transgenderism is considered a mental illness.

 

Ah, like that well-known and definetly not completely bullshit condition, Drapetomania. A well-known condition proposed by scientists, doctors, and psychologists, it sought to explain the puzzling behaviour of why, and I quote:

 

"Drapetomania was a supposed mental illness described by American physician Samuel A. Cartwright in 1851 that caused black slaves to flee captivity"

 

If only those escaped slaves sought some "treatment" for their condition. 

[Jorji Costava]

It's only a small nuanced change to make people feel better and less inclined to discriminate against trans people. Gender dysphoria is still considered a disorder and is treated as such.  For good reasons too, as you yourself stated, if it wasn't treated as a mental disorder then people suffering from it would not get access to free treatment and free corrective surgery.

 

This response is utterly confusing. I cite a quote from the DSM pointing out that the term "disorder" was removed from the diagonsis of gender dysphoria explicitly to remove the connotation that people with the condition are 'disordered,' and then you go on to state "It's still treated as a disorder."

 

It's a sound empirical generalization that when people say that gender dysphoria a disorder, they frequently don't mean 'disorder' in the same way that it's meant in contexts like "Cystic fibrosis is a genetic disorder." There's no history of using the diagnosis of cystic fibrosis to marginalize people who have it, but there is a history of using the diagnosis of gender identity disorder to marginalize transgendered individuals (consider that homosexuality was declassified as a mental illness as recently as 1973; this event was highly politicized, for much the same reasons). We may want to use those terms the same way in both cases, but the history just won't allow it. The words we use don't exist in a vacuum, and that's what the DSM V is addressing.

[Creator Limbs]

[AlanC9]

If "disorder" makes people feel bad when you say it, why say it?

[Creator Limbs]

If "disorder" makes people feel bad when you say it, why say it?

 

 

It's not about making people feel good or bad.

 

It's about terminology. If you see a disorder as a bad thing that is because of connotations that you yourself have placed on that word. It is not the prerogative of others to adjust vocabulary and terminology to make you feel better about yourself.

[Panda]

I'm baffled as to why people object to transgenderism being considered a mental disorder and even go as far as to wanting to change that definition. Why? Who are you helping with that?

 

Because it implies that transgenderism is in head, it's sickness and that transgenders aren't really trans, that they need to get out of that mindset.

[Lady Artifice]

Ah, like that well-known and definetly not completely bullshit condition, Drapetomania. A well-known condition proposed by scientists, doctors, and psychologists, it sought to explain the puzzling behaviour of why, and I quote:

 

"Drapetomania was a supposed mental illness described by American physician Samuel A. Cartwright in 1851 that caused black slaves to flee captivity"

 

If only those escaped slaves sought some "treatment" for their condition. 

 

A little OT, but this made me think of it. A prominent treatment for people (particularly for women) suffering from nerves, hysteria, depression, etc. used to be the "rest cure." Which encouraged someone to live as domestic, and usually isolated, a life as possible. To the point where they were discouraged even from mentally stimulating activities like writing. 

 

One woman who who went through this genius method of therapy wrote one of my favorite short stories inspired by the experience, The Yellow Wallpaper. 

 

https://www.gutenber...52-h/1952-h.htm

[In Exile]

A little OT, but this made me think of it. A prominent treatment for people (particularly for women) suffering from nerves, hysteria, depression, etc. used to be the "rest cure." Which encouraged someone to live as domestic, and usually isolated, a life as possible. To the point where they were discouraged even from mentally stimulating activities like writing. 

 

One woman who who went through this genius method of therapy wrote one of my favorite short stories inspired by the experience, The Yellow Wallpaper. 

 

https://www.gutenber...52-h/1952-h.htm

 

Your example is better than mine, in that mine was clearly mocked even at the time as outright lunacy by a substantial portion of the learned public (though I figure I get points for the sheer absurdity). At first I thought you were thinking about that other, well-known treatment for hysteria.

[The Heretic of Time]

Because it implies that transgenderism is in head, it's sickness and that transgenders aren't really trans, that they need to get out of that mindset.

 

You really need to look up the definition of 'disorder' or 'mental illness'. You got it all wrong.

 

Even if transgenderism is in the head (which it might be) it doesn't mean their disorder is not real, nor does it mean they need to get out of that "mindset" (most trans people can't get out).

 

But I suppose autistic people aren't really autistic and just need to get out of that mindset right?

Pedophiles should also just get out of that mindset.

 

ADHD people too.

 

 

If only it was that simple...

[Quarian Master Race]

nat has indeed created a masterpiece, of which this forum seems to be completely oblivious to.

I wonder if it will overtake my Master Race thread. It's bound to if it stays unlocked and growing at this rate.

[Lady Artifice]

Your example is better than mine, in that mine was clearly mocked even at the time as outright lunacy by a substantial portion of the learned public (though I figure I get points for the sheer absurdity). At first I thought you were thinking about that other, well-known treatment for hysteria.

 

Holy ****. 

 

"Women considered to have it exhibited a wide array of symptoms, including faintness, nervousness, sexual desire, insomnia, fluid retention, heaviness in the abdomen, muscle spasm, shortness of breath, irritability, loss of appetite for food or sex, and "a tendency to cause trouble".^[1]In extreme cases, the woman might be forced to enter an insane asylum or to undergo surgical hysterectomy."

 

So, almost anything (physical and behavioral) led to this diagnosis, especially things that were indicative of a sense of independent agency. 

 

Every once and a while I pause and remember to be grateful for exactly when and where I was born. This makes my skin crawl. 

[Panda]

You really need to look up the definition of 'disorder' or 'mental illness'. You got it all wrong.

 

Even if transgenderism is in the head (which it might be) it doesn't mean their disorder is not real, nor does it mean they need to get out of that "mindset" (most trans people can't get out).

 

But I suppose autistic people aren't really autistic and just need to get out of that mindset right?

Pedophiles should also just get out of that mindset.

 

ADHD people too.

 

 

If only it was that simple...

 

Autism isn't mental illness nor ADHD. They are disabilities. Mental illnesses are like depression and I doubt anyone wants to identify as depressed nor want to stay like that. I think most transgenders want to be the gender they feel they are and not be "cured" from that thought. Implication that transgenderism is mental illness means that it's sth negative that need to be get rid off for example in conversion camps instead of treated with transitions. Different sexualities were also labeled long time as mental illnesses, but good that we are past that already.

[The Heretic of Time]

"Oh we had some pretty f-cked up pseudo-scientific medical diagnosises in the past, that must mean ALL medical diagnosises I don't like  must be pseudo-scientific and discarded, right?!"

 

Yeah, that logic will not get us anywhere and it most certainly won't help the trans people who are suffering because of their condition and are only getting free help because their condition is diagnosed as a disorder.

[Jorji Costava]

It's not about making people feel good or bad.

 

It's about terminology. If you see a disorder as a bad thing that is because of connotations that you yourself have placed on that word. It is not the prerogative of others to adjust vocabulary and terminology to make you feel better about yourself.

 

If that's the case, then I guess we can just go back to using the term "miscegenation" to describe interracial relationships.

[The Heretic of Time]

Autism isn't mental illness nor ADHD. They are disabilities. Mental illnesses are like depression and I doubt anyone wants to identify as depressed nor want to stay like that. I think most transgenders want to be the gender they feel they are and not be "cured" from that thought. Implication that transgenderism is mental illness means that it's sth negative that need to be get rid off for example in conversion camps instead of treated with transitions. Different sexualities were also labeled long time as mental illnesses, but good that we are past that already.

 

What the heck are you on about? Autism and ADHD are definitely mental disorders, just like transgenderism is.

 

If I'm depressed (which I was) then why wouldn't I identify as a depressed person?

 

Transgenderism definitely is something negative. It causes nothing but complications for the person who suffers from it and in the worst case it can drive a transgender person to suicide. We should definitely not leave these people to their fates and it's a good thing help is available for these people.

 

To suggest that trans people should be send to conversion camps is ridiculous. No one made that suggestion (except for you).

 

 

A fact which has been repeated ad nauseum already but I feel it needs to be repeated again:

 

The only reason why therapy and sex-change operations are available to transgender people (for free!) is BECAUSE transgenderism is diagnosed as a mental disorder.

[Malthier]

"Oh we had some pretty f-cked up pseudo-scientific medical diagnosises in the past, that must mean ALL medical diagnosises I don't like  must be pseudo-scientific and discarded, right?!"

 

Yeah, that logic will not get us anywhere and it most certainly won't help the trans people who are suffering because of their condition and are only getting free help because their condition is diagnosed as a disorder.

 

that might be a good point if you weren't misrepresenting the scientific consensus on this as way more unified and consistent than it is.

[Ashevajak]

In the DMSV, the disorder is technically "gender dysphoria", the cause of which is the person being transgender.

 

Being transgender in and of itself is not a disorder, but mental disorders and complications can arise from gender dysphoria, the best treatment for which has been shown to be transitioning.

 

I don't know why so many people struggle with this, it's pretty clear if you take more than a minute to do some reading on the topic.

[Panda]

What the heck are you on about? Autism and ADHD are definitely mental disorders, just like transgenderism is.

 

If I'm depressed (which I was) then why wouldn't I identify as a depressed person?

 

Transgenderism definitely is something negative. It causes nothing but complications for the person who suffers from it and in the worst case it can drive a transgender person to suicide. We should definitely not leave these people to their fates and it's a good thing help is available for these people.

 

To suggest that trans people should be send to conversion camps is ridiculous. No one made that suggestion (except for you).

 

 

A fact which has been repeated ad nauseum already but I feel it needs to be repeated again:

 

The only reason why therapy and sex-change operations are available to transgender people (for free!) is BECAUSE transgenderism is diagnosed as a mental disorder.

 

If you have flu do you identify with it? What about cancer? You hope it passes up soon so you can be you, not someone who is defined and temporary disabled by the sickness.

 

Actually transgenderism is mostly negative, because stigma from society. I doubt transpeople would commit anywhere as close suicides without it.

 

I didn't suggest it either. Read again.

 

Okay I want to come clear with one thing. Do you think that people who have undergone transition and thus are gender they desire aren't "suffering" from transgenderism anymore, that they are cured since they are now right gender and not the gender that caused it?

[Lady Artifice]

To the main thrust of this thread: I couldn't care less if they do or do not include a TG romance in MEA.

 

Me neither. I have absolutely no dog in this fight. The outrage and vehemence this kind of topic inspires is a little beyond me, but it does on rare occasion lead to some interesting discussions.

 

On very rare occasion.