910 réponses à ce sujet

[The Heretic of Time]

1) If you have flu do you identify with it? What about cancer? You hope it passes up soon so you can be you, not someone who is defined and temporary disabled by the sickness.

 

2) Actually transgenderism is mostly negative, because stigma from society. I doubt transpeople would commit anywhere as close suicides without it.

 

3) Okay I want to come clear with one thing. Do you think that people who have undergone transition and thus are gender they desire aren't "suffering" from transgenderism anymore, that they are cured since they are now right gender and not the gender that caused it?

 

1) No, but I do have a disability and thus identify as a disabled person. Besides, no true transgender person I've ever known identifies as such. I have a really close friend who is transgender (though I suppose she's technically transsexual now that she's fully transitioned). She never identified as transgender as something to be proud of and wear as a badge of honor. She identified as a straight woman born in the wrong body (the body of a man). "Transgenderism" was just a label that the doctors put on her.

Now she's just a woman. She doesn't bring up her transsexuality if she doesn't have to. As far as she's concerned she's a real woman now and as far as I'm concerned I think she's a real woman now too.

I know this is just one single example, but still.

 

2) No, you're completely wrong. Transgenderism is mostly negative because it seriously f*cks with your head. Where I live there isn't much of a stigma towards trans people at all (only towards those who are obnoxious about it and invent new labels to feel special). My transsexual friend rarely got treated poorly because of her transgenderism, her parents are loving, caring and supportive parents and she has plenty of friends who supported her through her transition. Yet that didn't change the fact that my friend was severely suffering before her sex-change operation. She's still mentally unstable and she still goes to therapy, but she's doing a lot better. Her transitioning definitely helped.

 

3) That's entirely different on a case-by-case basis. Some transgender people become normally-functioning productive members of society after their transitioning (my friend is one of those), some are still struggling with their disorder even after the sex-change and in some rare cases the sex-change operation only makes things worse.

[Creator Limbs]

If that's the case, then I guess we can just go back to using the term "miscegenation" to describe interracial relationships.

 

Do whatever makes you happy bud.

[Inquisitor_Jonah]

You're cherry picking. I never said everything about masculinity and femininity is rooted in biology. Only most of it is. Yes, the arbitrary stuff are mostly the result of social constructs, but a lot of the less arbitrary stuff isn't.

 

Heterosexual men (and I assume lesbian women) are attracted to feminine traits. Heterosexual women (and gay men) are attracted to masculine traits. This is true for all mammalian life on earth.

There is a ton of evidence that supports that transgenderism is a mental illness. One only has to look.

 

https://en.wikipedia...ender_dysphoria

http://psychcentral....horia-symptoms/

https://www.psycholo...entity-disorder

 

http://www.nlm.nih.g...icle/001527.htm

http://cnsnews.com/n...rder-sex-change

Homosexuality was considered a mental illness too not long time ago, and now it's considered just another trait in human (and animal in general) diversity. Everything that's considered out of the norm is labeled weird, or an illness (I'm pretty sure even interracial attraction was at some point).

And please, comparing gender identity and sexual orientation to pedophilia is downright insulting. We are talking about individual aspects of people here. Pedophilia is nothing like that. It's a person that forces their desires on someone that's unwilling. And it's even worse because the said person is a children that has no way of defending themselves and will be scarred for life because of that. It really pisses me off wen someone pulls off this card, it's completely irrational.

[Steelcan]

Homosexuality was considered a mental illness too not long time ago, and now it's considered just another trait in human (and animal in general) diversity. Everything that's considered out of the norm is labeled weird, or an illness (I'm pretty sure even interracial attraction was at some point).

Just because something isn't wrong doesn't mean it is normal.

 

For example, homosexuality will always be abnormal as the overwhelming majority of people are heterosexual, that doesn't make it wrong in any way shape or form though.  However, with people who experience dysphoria, that is an illness, and unfortunately there are not any foolproof treatments, even fully and successfully transitioning doesn't help everyone with it.

[Draining Dragon]

Because it implies that transgenderism is in head, it's sickness and that transgenders aren't really trans, that they need to get out of that mindset.

Okay, first of all, I assume by "in the head" you mean "not real." The thing is, the workings of a person's brain are most certainly real, so that's kind of a misleading expression. All mental disorders are "in the head," literally speaking, but that doesn't make them any less real.

But on to my main point: Disorder does not imply anything of the kind you suggested. For instance, take attention deficit hyperactivity disorder; the fact that its called a "disorder" does not imply that it's a mindset "people just need to get out of," nor that it's fake.

[The Heretic of Time]

Homosexuality was considered a mental illness too not long time ago, and now it's considered just another trait in human (and animal in general) diversity. Everything that's considered out of the norm is labeled weird, or an illness (I'm pretty sure even interracial attraction was at some point).

And please, comparing gender identity and sexual orientation to pedophilia is downright insulting. We are talking about individual aspects of people here. Pedophilia is nothing like that. It's a person that forces their desires on someone that's unwilling. And it's even worse because the said person is a children that has no way of defending themselves and will be scarred for life because of that. It really pisses me off wen someone pulls off this card, it's completely irrational.

 

That is completely false. I find it baffling that you hold such a "progressive" view on transgenderism yet you have such a backwards and false view on pedophilia. Many pedophiles aren't bad people. They do not act on their impulses or desires to sleep with children and most of them are fully aware that sleeping with children is wrong.

 

The comparison between pedophilia and transgenderism/gender dysphoria is completely legit. Both gender dysphoria and pedophillia are mental disorders that cause people to act, think or feel outside of the norm and both can cause complications for the person who's suffering from it.

 

Homosexuality is no longer considered a mental disorder, true, but that is mostly due to the strong push from the progressive-left.
Homosexuality is natural, yes, but it is not normal. Scientists still don't know for sure how or why some people become homosexuals. The most modern and most recent hypothesis is that homosexuality is a combination between nature and nurture, basically like psychopathy (and before you get your knickers in a twist, no, I'm not saying homosexuals are psychopaths, I'm merely saying that the way homosexuality manifests in a person is probably similar to how psychopathy manifests in a person). Some people are born with the genes that makes them genetically predisposed to homosexuality, but not all of these people with these genes actually become homosexuals when they grow up.

 

Transgenderism is most likely the same as homosexuality in the sense that it's probably a combination between nature and nurture. The big difference however is that homosexuals aren't hindered from functioning as normal healthy citizens, while many transgender people are severely hindered in functioning normally and need to get serious treatment in order to turn them in healthy productive members of society (or at least make an attempt to).

[Panda]

Okay, first of all, I assume by "in the head" you mean "not real." The thing is, the workings of a person's brain are most certainly real, so that's kind of a misleading expression. All mental disorders are "in the head," literally speaking, but that doesn't make them any less real.

But on to my main point: Disorder does not imply anything of the kind you suggested. For instance, take attention deficit hyperactivity disorder; the fact that its called a "disorder" does not imply that it's a mindset "people just need to get out of," nor that it's fake.

 

Labeling transgenderism to mental illness in my opinion does suggest those.

[Steelcan]

Labeling transgenderism to mental illness in my opinion does suggest those.

then that's an issue on your end

[Inquisitor_Jonah]

Just because something isn't wrong doesn't mean it is normal.

 

For example, homosexuality will always be abnormal as the overwhelming majority of people are heterosexual, that doesn't make it wrong in any way shape or form though.  However, with people who experience dysphoria, that is an illness, and unfortunately there are not any foolproof treatments, even fully and successfully transitioning doesn't help everyone with it.

The definition of "normal" in this case is debatable. I guess the word you are looking for is "common". It's common to be Straight, thus most acceptable. Homosexuality and Transgenderism are diversity traits and are completely normal, they are just less common than heterosexuality and cisgenderism. Everything that's out of your comfort zone will aways be weird, the way you handle it is what makes the difference.

[The Heretic of Time]

The definition of "normal" in this case is debatable. I guess the word you are looking for is "common". It's common to be Straight, thus most acceptable. Homosexuality and Transgenderism are diversity traits and are completely normal, they are just less common than heterosexuality and cisgenderism. Everything that's out of your comfort zone will aways be weird, the way you handle it is what makes the difference.

 

You're the one confusing the definition of "normal" though.

 

I doubt Steelcan meant "normal" as in the opposite of "weird". Homosexuals or transgender people aren't weird, but they aren't normal either. Transgender people specifically aren't normal, as they are suffering from gender dysphoria, which most of the time prevents them from functioning as normal human beings unless they get treatment (e.g. hormonal treatment, therapy and/or a sex-change operation).

 

You are focusing way too much on social aspect and not enough on the scientific/medical aspect of transgenderism, which is what Steelcan and I are talking about.

 

You and others seem to think that because some people mistreat people with a disorder that therefor we should "protect" transsexuals from mistreatment by denying the fact that their condition is a disorder. You're not helping anyone with that.

Instead of trying to change the definition of transgenderism because you don't like the definition or because you're afraid that the definition might cause discrimination, it's much more logical and sensible to keep the definitions as they are and simply tell the bigots who discriminate against transsexuals to knock it off.

 

Instead of trying to change definitions, why not educate people on what definitions really mean? Seems much more logical to me.

[Steelcan]

The definition of "normal" in this case is debatable. I guess the word you are looking for is "common". It's common to be Straight, thus most acceptable. Homosexuality and Transgenderism are diversity traits and are completely normal, they are just less common than heterosexuality and cisgenderism. Everything that's out of your comfort zone will aways be weird, the way you handle it is what makes the difference.

Seeing as how the LGBT community makes up even by the least conservative estimates less than 12% of humanity "normal" is a perfectly acceptable word for heterosexuality.  Homosexuality is naturally occurring and doesn't hinder anyone (ignoring societal pressures) so there is no reason to call it a disorder or to categorize it as a mental illness. 

 

Gender dysphoria is not equivalent to this as it hinders people in many ways even ignoring social stigma.  It is a condition to be treated, however even after treatment, whether its hormone therapy, "regular" therapy, transitioning, and so on it still cannot 100% be reliably treated.  This does not diminish the humanity of people who go through it, it simply acknowledges that they need help, medical and psychological.

[Draining Dragon]

You know, I really hate it when political correctness interferes with science.

[The Heretic of Time]

Seeing as how the LGBT community makes up even by the least conservative estimates less than 12% of humanity "normal" is a perfectly acceptable word for heterosexuality. 

 

It's actually far less than 12%. Only 3,5% of the population is not heterosexual.

[Inquisitor_Jonah]

That is completely false. I find it baffling that you hold such a "progressive" view on transgenderism yet you have such a backwards and false view on pedophilia. Many pedophiles aren't bad people. They do not act on their impulses or desires to sleep with children and most of them are fully aware that sleeping with children is wrong.

 

The comparison between pedophilia and transgenderism/gender dysphoria is completely legit. Both gender dysphoria and pedophillia are mental disorders that cause people to act, think or feel outside of the norm and both can cause complications for the person who's suffering from it.

 

Homosexuality is no longer considered a mental disorder, true, but that is mostly due to the strong push from the progressive-left.
Homosexuality is natural, yes, but it is not normal. Scientists still don't know for sure how or why some people become homosexuals. The most modern and most recent hypothesis is that homosexuality is a combination between nature and nurture, basically like psychopathy (and before you get your knickers in a twist, no, I'm not saying homosexuals are psychopaths, I'm merely saying that the way homosexuality manifests in a person is probably similar to how psychopathy manifests in a person). Some people are born with the genes that makes them genetically predisposed to homosexuality, but not all of these people with these genes actually become homosexuals when they grow up.

 

Transgenderism is most likely the same as homosexuality in the sense that it's probably a combination between nature and nurture. The big difference however is that homosexuals aren't hindered from functioning as normal healthy citizens, while many transgender people are severely hindered in functioning normally and need to get serious treatment in order to turn them in healthy productive members of society (or at least make an attempt to).

A transgender person is a "productive member of society". Last time I checked there's only one job that requires the use of a person's genitalia, the rest of them are suitable to everyone that doesn't have any physical disability. Yes, trans people go trough severe depression, and that is the only mental Illness they have. That's because of the terrible backlash most of them suffer in their lives because of being trans.

And about the pedophiles, yes I admit I was rash in my opinion, and I'm sorry about it. But that's because this comparison between homosexuality (and by extension transgenderism)  and pedophilia it's very old and it's mostly used in a pejorative way.

Homosexuality and Transgenderism are personality traits. But they most likely tend to lead to depression that indeed is a mental illness, and therefore need to be treated. Pedophilia and Psychopathy are mental disorders because they make people do bad stuff and it's most times beyond their control.

[CronoDragoon]

Labeling transgenderism to mental illness in my opinion does suggest those.

 

This is more a comment on the poor mindset and stigma surrounding mental illness than anything, at least in the United States. Serious mental illnesses such as depression are still considered by many to simply be a mindset that one must snap out of. On the other extreme, admitting to and getting help for many mental illnesses carries a social stigma attached that leads to many simply living with it, which is a damn shame.

 

In other words, in a world where people were much more understanding and accepting of mental illness, there might not be so much pushback to calling transgenderism mental illness. That's not the world we live in, though. There is a justified fear that calling transgenderism mental illness would legitimize the viewpoint that these people are wrong for feeling how they do about their bodies.

[Lulupab]

I'm not taking sides here, but gender identity issues are officially called "dysphoria" in medical context, and not "disorder" or "illness". The public still uses these, but doctors and psychologist see it as a dysphoria.

 

http://www.webmd.com...ender-dysphoria

[daveliam]

That is completely false. I find it baffling that you hold such a "progressive" view on transgenderism yet you have such a backwards and false view on pedophilia. Many pedophiles aren't bad people. They do not act on their impulses or desires to sleep with children and most of them are fully aware that sleeping with children is wrong.

The comparison between pedophilia and transgenderism/gender dysphoria is completely legit. Both gender dysphoria and pedophillia are mental disorders that cause people to act, think or feel outside of the norm and both can cause complications for the person who's suffering from it.

Homosexuality is no longer considered a mental disorder, true, but that is mostly due to the strong push from the progressive-left.
Homosexuality is natural, yes, but it is not normal. Scientists still don't know for sure how or why some people become homosexuals. The most modern and most recent hypothesis is that homosexuality is a combination between nature and nurture, basically like psychopathy (and before you get your knickers in a twist, no, I'm not saying homosexuals are psychopaths, I'm merely saying that the way homosexuality manifests in a person is probably similar to how psychopathy manifests in a person). Some people are born with the genes that makes them genetically predisposed to homosexuality, but not all of these people with these genes actually become homosexuals when they grow up.

Transgenderism is most likely the same as homosexuality in the sense that it's probably a combination between nature and nurture. The big difference however is that homosexuals aren't hindered from functioning as normal healthy citizens, while many transgender people are severely hindered in functioning normally and need to get serious treatment in order to turn them in healthy productive members of society (or at least make an attempt to).

I'd love to see the sources on the claims that there are people 'genetically predisposed to homosexuality' that aren't gay. Not as a 'show me the proof' but because I consider myself pretty well read on this research and am not familiar with it. I'd like to read about it if you have a link.

[Lulupab]

It's actually far less than 12%. Only 3,5% of the population is not heterosexual.

 

No he was right.

 

Gays, Lesbians, Bisexuals and Transgenders make up 12% of population on average. With Bisexuals outnumbering everyone else, followed by gays, then lesbians and then transgenders.

 

For example a recent survey revealed 8% of total female population of America have come out as bisexuals, and this is not even counting potential closeted ones.

[Draining Dragon]

By the way, does anyone know if scientists have figured out what causes people to be LGBT?

[daveliam]

It's actually far less than 12%. Only 3,5% of the population is not heterosexual.

Except that this is incorrect. Studies show results ranging from 1% - 12%. And those studies do not claim to demonstrate the number of people who identify as LGBT (and shouldn't since it would be highly flawed research to do so). Self-report survey data on a historically stigmatized(aand currently illegal in many places) subset of people are suspect at best.

[Steelcan]

I'm not taking sides here, but gender identity issues are officially called "dysphoria" in medical context, and not "disorder" or "illness". The public still uses these, but doctors and psychologist see it as a dysphoria.

 

http://www.webmd.com...ender-dysphoria

according to that definition (from WebMD no less) there is no treatment for Dysphoria, and that is just patently untrue

 

you don't just treat anxiety and depression that goes with it, there is transitioning, hormonal treatments, and so on

[Steelcan]

By the way, does anyone know if scientists have figured out what causes people to be LGBT?

There's probably no one cause for LGBT people.  Numerous animal species demonstrate homosexual and bisexual behavior bonobos and dolphins often usually being listed as examples so it can't be an exclusively nurture thing, but it can't really be a purely natural thing either (unless its a common mutation but I haven't seen anyone seriously claim this as an explanation)

[daveliam]

By the way, does anyone know if scientists have figured out what causes people to be LGBT?

Most current research suggests a biological combination of genes and in utero hormone levels. With varying explanations of the particulars. Not sure if that's the same for transgender people though as I'm not as recent on that research body.

[Lulupab]

according to that definition (from WebMD no less) there is no treatment for Dysphoria, and that is just patently untrue

 

I don't that means what you think it means.

 

Dysphoria cannot be treated, in a sense that we cannot make the person forget the feeling, its as vain as "curing" gay people. Changing gender via operations is not counted as treatment for dysphoria, its a radical action to satisfy it.

 

So its correct to assume there is no treatment for dysphoria, because we don't know where it comes from or why it exists. Its not like a disorder to look for symptoms and causes etc... its not different that feeling love, and there is indeed no medical treatment for it.

[The Heretic of Time]

1) A transgender person is a "productive member of society". Last time I checked there's only one job that requires the use of a person's genitalia, the rest of them are suitable to everyone that doesn't have any physical disability. Yes, trans people go trough severe depression, and that is the only mental Illness they have. That's because of the terrible backlash most of them suffer in their lives because of being trans.

 

2) And about the pedophiles, yes I admit I was rash in my opinion, and I'm sorry about it. But that's because this comparison between homosexuality (and by extension transgenderism)  and pedophilia it's very old and it's mostly used in a pejorative way.

 

3) Homosexuality and Transgenderism whoever, are personality traits. But they most likely tend to lead to depression that indeed is a mental illness, and therefore need to be treated. Pedophilia and Psychopathy are mental disorders because they make people do bad stuff and it's most times beyond their control.

 

1) No, not really. A person who suffers from severe depression, anxiety, suicidal tendencies and schizophrenia is more often not a properly functioning productive member of society. And no, the "terrible backlash" (which doesn't exist, most people are generally accepting of transsexuals) is not the reason for their depression, anxiety or suicidal tendencies. It might make thinks worse, but it's definitely not the cause. The cause is the identity crisis that they go through now known as 'gender dysphoria'.

2) But I wasn't using the comparison in a pejorative way nor did I give you a reason to think I was. When have I ever discriminated against transsexuals, transgenders or people who suffer from gender dysphoria? I'm nothing but supportive of people who suffer from gender dysphoria and I only want the best for them.

 

3) No, that's like saying ADHD or autism or pedophilia are personality traits. Neither homosexuality nor transgenderism is a personality trait. Homosexuality is a sexual orientation and transgenderism is a mental disorder.

Psychopathy and pedophilia are not mental disorders because they supposedly make people do bad stuff. That's not what a disorder is. A disorder is a mental or behavioral pttern that causes suffering for the person having the disorder and the direct people around him/her and often hinders that person from functioning normally in ordinary life. Transgenderism fits that description perfectly.