87 réponses à ce sujet

[Stuffy38]

AntiChri5 wrote...

I am Wynnes long lost son (or at least my mage PC is). Either that or the love child of duncan and a female mage.

Yes, my last mage was Wynne's son as well.  Except my mage was a she.  Pfft, details.

[Taarkoth]

AntiChri5 wrote...

If your Dalish Elf was respectfull of the Chantry then she didnt pay enough attention during storytime.....What the Chantry did to the Dales is one of their worst crimes.

Yeah, because slapping down a bunch of pointy-eared bastards that first refuse to help with the Blight, then decide, after it's over, that now would be a WONDERFUL time to begin killing all those silly humans and take their stuff what with them being weakened from fighting off darkspawn.

Screw the filthy xenos. I mean elves.

I mean, the fact that human/elf pairings always result in a human shows how obviously superior humanity is to them, amirite?

[Addai]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

It was really a brilliant move by Bioware. If mages were real, I don't doubt for a minute that we wouldn't have similar issues with the church.

It's funny how different characters have seen the chantry differently for me though. My HN had no problems with the chantry since she was raised to believe so strongly. My Dalish was respectful of the chantry because she knew how strongly she believed in the creators. My DC (current pla through) hates the chantry. I find myself cringing every time someone says, "Maker," or any other Andraste type comment.

If your Dalish Elf was respectfull of the Chantry then she didnt pay enough attention during storytime.....What the Chantry did to the Dales is one of their worst crimes.

My Dalish elf was also respectful, not of the Chantry but of Maker belief.  Humans are under the Chantry's thumb, too, after all, even though many are complicit.  And she would no more deny others their faith than see the elves denied their freedom to worship.  So for instance, she decided to help Brother Burkel in Orzammar, after some thought.  She was impressed by his statement that the dwarves should at least be able to hear about the Maker.  (My city elf, by contrast, told him where to stuff his Chantry amulet.)  Dalish warden romanced Alistair and I imagine eventually took an agnostic stand towards the Maker, believing that he might be a god among the elven gods, too.

[legbamel]

I would have thought that Wynne, who both lost her son to and had her student killed by Chantry-led Templars (the latter of whom would not even tell her what happened), would have been much less supportive of their role. It always strikes me as strange when she defends them to Alistair.

[TheBlackBaron]

Good to see I wasn't the only one getting huge 40K vibes when it came to the relationship between the Magi, Templars, and the rest of the Chantry. That was definitely one of the more interesting aspects of the game universe.

[Emerald Melios]

DreGregoire wrote...

I think the most obvious evidence of the Chantry's stifling the mages is in the cutsceen where you go to the war meeting with the King, Loghain, Duncan, rev. mother, and mage. The revered mother totally disrespects the mage, it's not what she says but the way she says. Exellent voice acting by the way.

I agree, her contempt was spitefully venomous. It's no wonder Uldred later went bat**** insane and summoned a pride demon.

Fun fact: The Ostagar Revered Mother at that meeting is voiced by Wynne's VA (Susan Boyd Joyce).

[Drasanil]

As another poster previously mentioned in this thread, Warhammer 40k (...and Warhammer Fantasy Battle and Warhammer Fantasy Role Play...) kind of spoiled me.



As far as I'm concerned the Chantry really seems like a tame and friendly version of the Ecclisiarchy, I had trouble being shocked or getting mad at anything they did, and find people's visceral hatred of them somewhat perplexing.

[Suron]

sorry but those with Dalish Elves who "respect the chantry"...are you guys for real? do you even know how to comprehend? You are a Dalish because you reject falling to the human beliefs/etc...



respect the maker? sure

respect andraste? of course..she helped free your people



but to respect the chantry is a whole other thing..and NO DALISH ELF WOULD...it was the chantry that raped, burned, murdered, and STOLE your homes, family, lives, immortality, etc...you are a dalish elf because you refuse to adhere to the chantry and human rule.



a dalish elf that respects the chantry is called a city elf...you're playing the wrong origin.



sorry but that's just plain idiotic.

[Nuclear]

Right... So you can't have a City Elf who hates the Chantry?

There's always one unique person in a group who believes differently to the others. Who's to say those Dalish aren't those people? In a RP sense that elf might not care as much as the other Dalish when it comes to the Chantry. It makes no sense saying every single Dalish elf hates the Chantry, there is always at least one person that differs from that opinion.

Modifié par -ßeta-, 23 mai 2010 - 03:05 .

[BHRamsay]

As I have posted elsewhere, I am no Chantry-boi myself but some of the things you encounter during the year or so you are on the run should serve to demonstrate that there are good reasons for the nervousness in regards to magic ---

that having been said if You wind up having to fight against the Chantry in DA2 I won't lose a lot of sleep taking down enemy templars or some such.

There are a few too many zealots sheltered under the Chantry's wing for my comfort.

Modifié par BHRamsay, 23 mai 2010 - 03:01 .

[Emerald Melios]

BHRamsay wrote...

As I have posted elsewhere, I am no Chantry-boi myself but some of the things you encounter during the year or so you are on the run should serve to demonstrate that there are good reasons for the nervousness in regards to magic ---

that having been said if You wind up having to fight against the Chantry in DA2 I won't lose a lot of sleep taking down enemy templars or some such.

There are a few too many zealots sheltered under the Chantry's wing for my comfort.

Hmph...you have to admit Malificarum are more fun than the Templars.

[BHRamsay]

Emerald Melios wrote...

BHRamsay wrote...

As I have posted elsewhere, I am no Chantry-boi myself but some of the things you encounter during the year or so you are on the run should serve to demonstrate that there are good reasons for the nervousness in regards to magic ---

that having been said if You wind up having to fight against the Chantry in DA2 I won't lose a lot of sleep taking down enemy templars or some such.

There are a few too many zealots sheltered under the Chantry's wing for my comfort.

Hmph...you have to admit Malificarum are more fun than the Templars.

Well one in particular but she has some great lines ...and her dialogs arent bad either. ... rimshot

[Addai]

Suron wrote...

sorry but those with Dalish Elves who "respect the chantry"...are you guys for real? do you even know how to comprehend? You are a Dalish because you reject falling to the human beliefs/etc...

respect the maker? sure
respect andraste? of course..she helped free your people

but to respect the chantry is a whole other thing..and NO DALISH ELF WOULD...it was the chantry that raped, burned, murdered, and STOLE your homes, family, lives, immortality, etc...you are a dalish elf because you refuse to adhere to the chantry and human rule.

a dalish elf that respects the chantry is called a city elf...you're playing the wrong origin.

sorry but that's just plain idiotic.

Not sure such a rant is even worthy of a response, but not everyone plays their Dalish PCs as raging human-haters with a Chantry-shaped chip on their shoulders.  Many of us IRL come from ethnic groups who lost a homeland once, hundreds of years ago or even thousands, and though the storytellers might nurse those grievances, individuals can be more or less laid-back about them.

As I said above, I played a Dalish PC who, while she didn't respect the Chantry, wasn't about to do senseless things like spoil the ashes.  She also helped Brother Burkel in Orzammar, because she was impressed by his argument that the dwarves should at least be able to hear about the Maker to form their own opinions.  If you have suffered religious oppression yourself, it's hypocritical to want to suppress the beliefs of others.

Furthermore, my Dalish PC helped put Alistair on the throne and remained as his mistress and advisor.  When the Dalish receive officially appointed lands, they become vassals of the King.  They are going to have to learn to deal with the Chantry as a fact of life and co-exist with it, or else be locked in a continuous cycle of religious conflict.  I played my PC as being progressive enough to realize this and to want to be a bridge-builder.  Respecting the beliefs of others =/ adopting them, as the city elves generally do, so your "advice" about which origin to play and how to play it is a bit shortsighted.  The game allows for any number of different interpretations of our PCs' worldview.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 mai 2010 - 05:25 .

[Creature 1]

DreGregoire wrote...
I'm glad in my last playthrough when I played a mage that sacrificed himself that King Alistair gave land to the mages that would not be ruled over by the chantry. 

I don't ask for this just because I find it unbelievable that it would actually be possible for Alistair to deliver on this. 

[DreGregoire]

So I decided to throw a loop into my mage story line. I escape the chantry when Fergus Cousland comes and demands a mage for the Cousland's. Okay there is a twist to this because Aonghas Amell was a Cousland before having to go to the tower. Ssssshhhh it's a secret though. Don't worry the King supported the Couslands in this! LOL. So far I just ignore people who refer to me in game as a mage who wouldn't be in a position to know lol. Ah gotta love mods. I haven't played too far into it as a Human Noble Mage and I just restarted to take advantage of some new mods and addins but it should be interesting. Boo Hiss Chantry! LOL.

[LobselVith8]

Creature 1 wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...
I'm glad in my last playthrough when I played a mage that sacrificed himself that King Alistair gave land to the mages that would not be ruled over by the chantry. 

I don't ask for this just because I find it unbelievable that it would actually be possible for Alistair to deliver on this. 

I can see that since Ferelden is a very religious place, there might be some issues, but Alistair is willing to do things that make people unhappy for the greater good. Given how King Alistair will put an elf in the royal court and gives the Hinterlands to the Dalish, why wouldn't he be able to give Mages their freedom? I'm pretty sure making a Mage the Arl of Amaranthine would tick off the Chantry given how "evil" they profess mages are.

The Chantry doesn't rule Ferelden, and it's based out of Orlais, a place many in Ferelden hold with contempt because of the occupation. A Warden of the Mage origin is a hero who stopped the Blight regardless of gender, race and magical ability, so how wouldn't a ruler be able to liberate the Circle in Ferelden if the Hero asks for this boon? Given how babies are Chantry property, templars have a kill-on-sight order for mages who flee the Circle and the untold years mages have spent under chantry/templar supervision, I don't see why Alistair's promise to free them wouldn't come through, especially when he's voiced his disgust with how the Chantry controls the templars through lyrium addiction, thinks the Harrowings are horrific, and doubts the Chantry version of the First Blight being true. Even Anora rewards the Warden's efforts with liberating the Circle if she sole ruler and the Warden sacrifices him/herself.

[TJPags]

jln.francisco wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

DJ0000 wrote...
And I hate the way the one in Redcliff acts all high and mighty, "No, I don't want to give the soldiers any hope, I'd rather they die than offer them any false motivation"...

I fully respected her honesty, although I wish I had the option to say to both the soldiers and the priestess something along the lines of, "It's true, the Maker isn't actually going to do anything for us.  So, go a step further and think carefully about why you're worshipping him..."

I dunno, I tried that line with Leliana and it led to me losing approval points. Weren't that many lost but Leliana seems a bit more open minded then the rest of the Chantry. I'd imagine my Warden being a mage and how everyone in the village happens to hate mages, it would have made the situation a lot worse.

Leliana?  Open minded about the Maker?  Are we thinking of the same girl?

She's open minded about the Chantry - likes it, since it helped hide her, but never seem to agree with much of what they did, IMO, but about the Maker?

She's a bit of a religious fanatic, Maker-wise, that Leliana is . . . . after all, he talks to her, you know . . .

[EccentricSage]

Riona45 wrote...

Projinator wrote...

I have a love/hate relationship with the Chantry...on my first playthrough, I like it. They seemed to care about all things, and they're incredible grip on the mages seemed, at first, like nothing more than a precaution...

There's "taking precautions," and then there's exploiting a shaky situation (the dangers that mages can pose) as a way to build and maintain political power.

Don't forget the Tranquel.  What better slave to do your menial tasks than those with a magical lobotomy, yet maliable intelect?  That's as vile and cruel as even the worst blood magic.  And then there's the brainwashed, Lerium adicted Templars, some of which were raised by the chantry and never given a choice, ether.


The chantry are well on their way to becoming as horrific as the Tevinter their Andraste faught to free them from.  There is still some good in the Sisters and Brothers of the chantry who help the needy, as we do see in the game.  Even Zevran implied that the Chantry had helped him in some way.  And they saved Leliana, though they may not have been aware of what she was.

Wynne pisses me off, though, because despite everything they did to her, she chose to succumb to their teachings and way of life, and to proliferate their propaganda even as she claims not to be religious.  She even goes out of her way to try to talk free mages into succumbing to the Circle's authority voluntarily, despite the fact that the Circle are at the mercy of the Templars.  So I don't feal sorry for her at all. 

[FiliusMartis]

If we're to believe the implications of Leliana's song DLC, at least some members of the Chantry were very aware of where she came from.



I became rather fond of Wynne despite her giving in to the Chantry. Really, when push comes to shove, she's willing to kill to protect her fellow mages, as she is in the Circle quest. I don't remember her being like "yaaaay chantry," but I could just be forgetting things. That being said, Wynne seems flawed in her optimism. She seems the sort that goes along with the way the mages are treated in hopes that one day the chantry will realize their methods are unnecessarily extreme. She seems the type that would say that, if the mages revolt, they prove the chantry's fears right.

[EccentricSage]

Drasanil wrote...

As another poster previously mentioned in this thread, Warhammer 40k (...and Warhammer Fantasy Battle and Warhammer Fantasy Role Play...) kind of spoiled me.

As far as I'm concerned the Chantry really seems like a tame and friendly version of the Ecclisiarchy, I had trouble being shocked or getting mad at anything they did, and find people's visceral hatred of them somewhat perplexing.

Well, it seemed vrry watered-down in the game... especialy at the Circle Tower.  In the book "The Calling" there is much more open hostility towards mages, the tower is much more opressive and there are literaly templars everywhere watching every move of the mages.  Could you imagine living like that?  And if you read between the lines in the game, it seems the word of a templar is proof enough of a mage's guilt and can result in the right of tranquility, and they will even hunt down the family of apostates who are acused of being malificarum.  You may not have witnessed the bloodbaths and innocents being slain in game, but it's made obvious enough that such things go on under the Chantry's rule.


"The Calling" spoiler below


Fiona, from the book, was raped and beaten for years by a noble who enslaved her.  Though the discovery of her magic freed her from him, she states that the tower was not much better.  So she must have been treeted pretty terribly in the Tower as well.  And why wouldn't she be?  If the word of any Templar carries more weight than the word of a mage, then what prevents terrible abuses from occuring?  Especialy when you end up with corrupt first Enchanters looking out only for their own welfare and not caring what becomes of the aprentices.

[EccentricSage]

Taarkoth wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

If your Dalish Elf was respectfull of the Chantry then she didnt pay enough attention during storytime.....What the Chantry did to the Dales is one of their worst crimes.

Yeah, because slapping down a bunch of pointy-eared bastards that first refuse to help with the Blight, then decide, after it's over, that now would be a WONDERFUL time to begin killing all those silly humans and take their stuff what with them being weakened from fighting off darkspawn.

Screw the filthy xenos. I mean elves.

I mean, the fact that human/elf pairings always result in a human shows how obviously superior humanity is to them, amirite?

Wait.... What's this about elves killing humans after the blight?  I don't remember any such story. 

As for the genetics... Elves who were pure were imortal, and elves who kept as seperate as possible (Dalish) live longer.  So it would seem more that the human genes tainted and degraded the elven genes, like a virus causing mutation.

[LobselVith8]

Orlais claimed the Dales started the war by attacking the town of Red Crossing, although considering that Orlais later invaded Ferelden, it's not a claim I'd take seriously, especially given how elves ignored humans during the Second Blight. I guess murder, slavery and having your nation destroyed by humanity makes some elves feel that it's better to stay far, far away from humans, too.

[DreGregoire]

You don't believe that the behavior of the chantry can vary from country to country? Don't you think that the chantry would be forced to see things differently dependent on what the ruling class will allow? Are templars and the chantry really the same thing? You don't think each tower is different? How about the different enchanters and knight commanders of the different towers? Wouldn't they possibly see things differently based on their own exposure in their country?



I don't think it's so easy to say this is the way all of the chantries are like and this is how all knight commanders run their templars. It is very dependent on how much the people of a kingdom are willing to tolerate. I don't even think it's possible to say that the circle tower that Fiona knew is the same circle tower you would find there in the present day.



Orlais, Antiva, and Ferelden are so very different in back ground and culture that it just doesn't make sense to compare their chantry, templars, and circle of magi with each other.



Let us take into account personality and more specifically the environment you come from.



My first mage only ever knew the tower life, he was resentful of the templars and did anything and everything to show them how little he believed them to be in charge. Heh. I don't even have this character anymore. Maybe I'll remake him sometime or maybe a her.



My second mage remembered some of his youth and he had been taught the importance of treating others with respect; therefore, he was a fairy respectful individual. He did have a bit of a backbone and had to be forced to betray Jowan. Even as he paid lip service in respect; his every move and action challenged authority, he was just really good at swaying others when they resisted him. He also died for Ferelden.



Now when I decided to make a mage that was once a noble who didn't join the tower until he was 12 he saw the templars differently than others would have because they came from a different back ground. My noble mage saw them much as he saw the family guards. They didn't bother him as much, not that he wasn't careful around them but he wasn't as impacted by their constant attention.



I actually have played more than three mages but these are the most significant ones to date.



Anyways I still stand by Boo Hiss Chantry because I don't like the idea of any one organization having complete sway over others lives. And that they took Wynne's child still bugs the heck out of me.