87 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

I think you guys might be underestimating how much the average person might fear mages and need the security of knowing that they were being overseen by a force that could keep evildoers in check. I mean, imagine if random dude walking down the street could do the things mages do, and could also completely lose their minds with a momentary loss of will/concentration. It's the fantasy equivalent of having a population of unstable people with nuclear bombs in their pockets. If it wasn't the Chantry, it would be something else.

[FiliusMartis]

I'm of the opinion that forcing Tranquility is too extreme and taking their children away is not a protective measure. Furthermore, the most unstable and evil people are usually not killed on sight... there are trials and degrees of punishment for different things. Moderation is what is lacking.

[errant_knight]

FiliusMartis wrote...

I'm of the opinion that forcing Tranquility is too extreme and taking their children away is not a protective measure. Furthermore, the most unstable and evil people are usually not killed on sight... there are trials and degrees of punishment for different things. Moderation is what is lacking.

I agree, although the tower is no place for a child to grow up, especially a non-mage child. The whole tranquil thing is repugnant, but I find myself unable to think of an alternative solution as to what to do with mages who seem unlikely to be able to resist the inherent temptations.

[FiliusMartis]

Allow mages to keep contact with their families so that children can be sent to live with grandparents, aunts or uncles, etc. Keep dangerous mages in a separate area with anti-magic wards but allow them to have visitors. Not the best solutions perhaps, but better than what's going on.

[errant_knight]

FiliusMartis wrote...

Allow mages to keep contact with their families so that children can be sent to live with grandparents, aunts or uncles, etc. Keep dangerous mages in a separate area with anti-magic wards but allow them to have visitors. Not the best solutions perhaps, but better than what's going on.

The solution for the children is fine, in principle, but I can see good reasons for wanting both mages and wardens to leave their old lives behind. To do otherwise give them an incentive to leave, particularly when it involves children. It's human nature.

As for imprisoning dangerous mages forever, without even the limited freedom of the tower mages, is that really kinder than making them tranquil? I'm not so sure.

[Sarah1281]

I think that they should give mages that are too weak or dangerous that they plan on making Tranquil the option to be executed instead. It solves the problem that the mage poses and this way lets those that want to live even without emotions do so and lets the ones like Jowan who cannot think of anything worse than being forcibly emotionally castrated take another option.

[FiliusMartis]

People like Jowan would say so. If you could live with your beloved (presuming she's not a chantry initiate ) and continue to have feelings and dreams, your friends and family can come see you, or become a husk... what's worse?. It's as close as a mage can get to a normal life. They could still do crafts, research, copying writings, and such for the Circle to support themselves. It doesn't have to be an awful place.

It could at least be an option. As is, the chantry just sucks their soul out and uses them as slave labor.

Modifié par FiliusMartis, 04 août 2010 - 06:41 .

[DreGregoire]

You know aside from Jowan's girl being sent to the mages prison I haven't heard much more about it in game but then again I don't read every little scrap of info I get unless I need to LOL. And in terms of Ander in awakenings did anybody else find it a little enlightening to realize how many times he had been caught and returned without getting himself slain or some such. Very strange, it's almost as if not all templars are the kill them on sight type. Maybe they were more understanding towards him because he was much older when he came to the tower, but hey this isn't about the chantry is it? Inconsistency at it's best but I would think that not all templars are from the same mold as the chantry would have us believe.

[errant_knight]

DreGregoire wrote...

You know aside from Jowan's girl being sent to the mages prison I haven't heard much more about it in game but then again I don't read every little scrap of info I get unless I need to LOL. And in terms of Ander in awakenings did anybody else find it a little enlightening to realize how many times he had been caught and returned without getting himself slain or some such. Very strange, it's almost as if not all templars are the kill them on sight type. Maybe they were more understanding towards him because he was much older when he came to the tower, but hey this isn't about the chantry is it? Inconsistency at it's best but I would think that not all templars are from the same mold as the chantry would have us believe.

Well, Jowan was a proven Maleficar, while Anders did nothing but escape, although we do see different templars actin in different ways. The templar who was after Anders in Awakening was determined to see him dead, but we don't know if those were her actual orders, or how she was determined to see it play out.

[Sarah1281]

DreGregoire wrote...

You know aside from Jowan's girl being sent to the mages prison I haven't heard much more about it in game but then again I don't read every little scrap of info I get unless I need to LOL. And in terms of Ander in awakenings did anybody else find it a little enlightening to realize how many times he had been caught and returned without getting himself slain or some such. Very strange, it's almost as if not all templars are the kill them on sight type. Maybe they were more understanding towards him because he was much older when he came to the tower, but hey this isn't about the chantry is it? Inconsistency at it's best but I would think that not all templars are from the same mold as the chantry would have us believe.

Lily went to Aenoar for breaking her vows of chastity and for helping a blood mage escape. Anders, if you ask, tells you that they can't make you Tranquil once you've gone through your Harrowing and that all of the Templars know how he feels about blood magic so they have on reason to kill him except sheer annoyance at his escapes. Once Templars wound up dead, he probably would have been executed it whoever Rydock had to report to believed that he had done it but once he ended up in the GW instead he was beyond their jurisdiction.

[LobselVith8]

errant_knight wrote...

I think you guys might be underestimating how much the average person might fear mages and need the security of knowing that they were being overseen by a force that could keep evildoers in check. I mean, imagine if random dude walking down the street could do the things mages do, and could also completely lose their minds with a momentary loss of will/concentration. It's the fantasy equivalent of having a population of unstable people with nuclear bombs in their pockets. If it wasn't the Chantry, it would be something else.

You mean the same people who think elves are sub-human? There are plenty of things wrong with Ferelden, most of it comes from the Chantry. I think a lot of people would say that the Chantry is evil - the Dalish elves who lost their homeland to the Exhalted March,  the mages who lose all freedom because of being born with magical ability, anyone from another nation opposed to the Chantry spreading their influence and trying to have their templars take over (i.e. Kirkwall during 9:21 Dragon Age). Wynne's apprentice Aneirin was nearly killed because he was a scared kid who ran away from an inept teacher  - wasn't a blood mage, didn't practice any illegal magic, simply got scared and was sentenced to death.

Having someone with magical ability properly instructured is different than imprisoning them for the rest of their lives and giving them no freedom at all. Kolgrim's people have mages, Dalish have mages, and none of them seem to have the need to needlessly murder anyone because they didn't properly instruct their students or put them through ridiculous trials in the Fade.

Sarah1281 wrote...

Once Templars wound up dead, he probably would have been executed it whoever Rydock had to report to believed that he had done it but once he ended up in the GW instead he was beyond their jurisdiction.

Technically, for a Mage Warden who asked for the Circle to be independent as his royal boon, this shouldn't have even been an issue unless Anders was from a Circle outside Ferelden.

[Sarah1281]

Yeah, but Awakening ignores that boon. Perhaps an in-game justification could be that Alistair/Anora coulnd't just sever the ties overnight but it had to be a planned process and the details hadn't been hammered out yet a few months later during Awakening?

[errant_knight]

LobselVith8 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I think you guys might be underestimating how much the average person might fear mages and need the security of knowing that they were being overseen by a force that could keep evildoers in check. I mean, imagine if random dude walking down the street could do the things mages do, and could also completely lose their minds with a momentary loss of will/concentration. It's the fantasy equivalent of having a population of unstable people with nuclear bombs in their pockets. If it wasn't the Chantry, it would be something else.

You mean the same people who think elves are sub-human? There are plenty of things wrong with Ferelden, most of it comes from the Chantry. I think a lot of people would say that the Chantry is evil - the Dalish elves who lost their homeland to the Exhalted March,  the mages who lose all freedom because of being born with magical ability, anyone from another nation opposed to the Chantry spreading their influence and trying to have their templars take over (i.e. Kirkwall during 9:21 Dragon Age). Wynne's apprentice Aneirin was nearly killed because he was a scared kid who ran away from an inept teacher  - wasn't a blood mage, didn't practice any illegal magic, simply got scared and was sentenced to death.

Having someone with magical ability properly instructured is different than imprisoning them for the rest of their lives and giving them no freedom at all. Kolgrim's people have mages, Dalish have mages, and none of them seem to have the need to needlessly murder anyone because they didn't properly instruct their students or put them through ridiculous trials in the Fade.

Sarah1281 wrote...

Once Templars wound up dead, he probably would have been executed it whoever Rydock had to report to believed that he had done it but once he ended up in the GW instead he was beyond their jurisdiction.

Technically, for a Mage Warden who asked for the Circle to be independent as his royal boon, this shouldn't have even been an issue unless Anders was from a Circle outside Ferelden.

It's the world that exists, religion, prejudices, everything like it or not, and it can't be changed overnight with a snap of the fingers. And it's their religion. It's not going anywhere. The best one could do is try to moderate attitudes, and find ways to give the populace a feeling of security in less drastic ways--as well as protection from a real danger. So...within the parameters of Ferelden as it exists, how would you do that?

[LobselVith8]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yeah, but Awakening ignores that boon. Perhaps an in-game justification could be that Alistair/Anora coulnd't just sever the ties overnight but it had to be a planned process and the details hadn't been hammered out yet a few months later during Awakening?

Considering the other things it ignores, I doubt it. I doubt there's any justification for a Warden living in Orzammar and being a Paragon to have no one recognize them or acknowledge them from dwarven society, and for the end credits to say s/he is a "guest of honor" at Orzammar despite living there.

errant_knight wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I think you guys might be underestimating how much the average person might fear mages and need the security of knowing that they were being overseen by a force that could keep evildoers in check. I mean, imagine if random dude walking down the street could do the things mages do, and could also completely lose their minds with a momentary loss of will/concentration. It's the fantasy equivalent of having a population of unstable people with nuclear bombs in their pockets. If it wasn't the Chantry, it would be something else.

You mean the same people who think elves are sub-human? There are plenty of things wrong with Ferelden, most of it comes from the Chantry. I think a lot of people would say that the Chantry is evil - the Dalish elves who lost their homeland to the Exhalted March,  the mages who lose all freedom because of being born with magical ability, anyone from another nation opposed to the Chantry spreading their influence and trying to have their templars take over (i.e. Kirkwall during 9:21 Dragon Age). Wynne's apprentice Aneirin was nearly killed because he was a scared kid who ran away from an inept teacher  - wasn't a blood mage, didn't practice any illegal magic, simply got scared and was sentenced to death.

Having someone with magical ability properly instructured is different than imprisoning them for the rest of their lives and giving them no freedom at all. Kolgrim's people have mages, Dalish have mages, and none of them seem to have the need to needlessly murder anyone because they didn't properly instruct their students or put them through ridiculous trials in the Fade.

Sarah1281 wrote...

Once Templars wound up dead, he probably would have been executed it whoever Rydock had to report to believed that he had done it but once he ended up in the GW instead he was beyond their jurisdiction.

Technically, for a Mage Warden who asked for the Circle to be independent as his royal boon, this shouldn't have even been an issue unless Anders was from a Circle outside Ferelden.

It's the world that exists, religion, prejudices, everything like it or not, and it can't be changed overnight with a snap of the fingers. And it's their religion. It's not going anywhere. The best one could do is try to moderate attitudes, and find ways to give the populace a feeling of security in less drastic ways--as well as protection from a real danger. So...within the parameters of Ferelden as it exists, how would you do that?

Isn't that exactly what Alistair does - he places Wynne as a court advisor, gives the Hinterlands to the Dalish, puts the Elder from the Alienage in his royal court, and can grant a royal boon to allow the mages independence from the Chantry and the templars. Instead of having a rebellion every time that a mage rightly thinks that the Chantry and the templars are a mockery and wants freedom for the Circle, he's willing to emancipate them from the Chantry.  He's the first King to actually look outside the human settlements and think about the big picture, of all Ferelden. His actions set the example. I'd say his combined efforts as King do much to moderate attitudes, and a non-human Warden goes a long way towards helping change those views amongst the people of Ferelden.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 05 août 2010 - 01:57 .

[Sarah1281]

Again, Wynne as advisor and the Dalish having a homeland as well as the option of a free-Circle boon are NOT ALISTAIR-SPECIFIC things. And those having nothing to do with the boon having problems being implemented. Wynne is one trusted mage and courts have had them before, the land around Ostagar is unclaimed so Alistair/Anora can give it to whoever they want to and the Chantry doesn't have control over that, who is appointed to Alistair's court is, again, not the Chantry's decision.



Control over mages? That IS one of the biggest things the Chantry handles and why they have their own private army. THAT they will care about a lot more and that they won't so easily lose a lot of power because Alistair/Anora declares that the Circle is free. These things take time and the Chantry has to be at least reluctantly on board or it will never work.

[LobselVith8]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Again, Wynne as advisor and the Dalish having a homeland as well as the option of a free-Circle boon are NOT ALISTAIR-SPECIFIC things. And those having nothing to do with the boon having problems being implemented. Wynne is one trusted mage and courts have had them before, the land around Ostagar is unclaimed so Alistair/Anora can give it to whoever they want to and the Chantry doesn't have control over that, who is appointed to Alistair's court is, again, not the Chantry's decision. 

First, I'm not looking to get into a Alistair v. Anora debate here. I merely mentioned Alistair because, in comparison to prior Kings of Ferelden that Alistair is directly related to (therefore, excluding Anora from my example as she is Loghain's daughter), he stands out amongst his father King Maric Theirin (who was involved with an elven woman) and his other predecessors emanating from Calenhad, and does this even if he was chosen without Anora as his Queen.

Sarah1281 wrote... 

Control over mages? That IS one of the biggest things the Chantry handles and why they have their own private army. THAT they will care about a lot more and that they won't so easily lose a lot of power because Alistair/Anora declares that the Circle is free. These things take time and the Chantry has to be at least reluctantly on board or it will never work.

You realize Alistair and Anora can become rulers of Ferelden and the Divine,  the leader of the Chantry, is in Orlais, correct? Last time I checked, Orlais didn't tell Ferelden how to run the nation.

[Sarah1281]

You realize Alistair and Anora can become rulers of Ferelden and the Divine, the leader of the Chantry, is in Orlais, correct? Last time I checked, Orlais didn't tell Ferelden how to run the nation.

And until 1929 the Papacy was in Italy but during the medieval ages they still had plenty of control over other nations. So...yes, I realize that and no I don't think it will make a difference. I had actually just been talking about the Ferelden branch having issues but since that sets a dangerous precedent, you're right: the other countries' Chantries will want to get involved.

[LobselVith8]

Considering that the Chantry would need to have an Exalted March against the rulers of Ferelden (with possible King Alistair being a templar) and the Hero of Ferelden (who has treaties with the elves and the dwarves), who is loved by the people regardless of being a mage, in the aftermath of defeating the Archdemon, I don't think they'd go through with it (or think they'd go through it and win, at least). Orlais conquered Ferelden once, and most Fereldens despise Orlais. It wouldn't be difficult to sway Fereldens against "an Orlesian threat." In addition, considering a Warden of the Circle of Magi can become Arl of Amaranthine and/or Teryn of Gwaren (i.e. ruling over man), I don't see those options making the Chantry happy, either.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 05 août 2010 - 02:38 .

[Sarah1281]

The Chantry can rally the people, though. I don't think the terrified-of-mages commoners would be that hard to convince. There's a big difference between 'oh, that one really good Surana/Amell that saved us all' and 'yay, we heart mages and completely trust them now!'

Edit: Not to mention that that boon is a dangerous restriction of Chantry authority. There's no way they're going to take that lying down. Other countries will start to think that they can get away with it, too, and Orlais is always going to war. Many people believe they're already looking for an exucse to reconquer Ferelden and there it is.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 05 août 2010 - 02:42 .

[LobselVith8]

You think the Divine of Orlais can convince the Ferelden people recently rescued by a Mage Warden to go against him/her after saving their lives and stopping the Blight? I doubt Alistair or Anora would make the Hero of Ferelden Warden-Commander and de facto Arl of Amaranthine if they were cowered by the Divine of Orlais. Anora is loved by the people (and the threat of making Eamon responsible for her death was enough to cast down any thought of succeeding against Loghain). I'm curious how the Divine would explain away Alistair in particular, who would be known to be a templar of the Chantry and a direct descendant of Calenhad. Not that I doubt that they would try, but I don't see it making any difference. A history of rape, torture and murder that many people still remember during Orlesian rule would be opposed to any support for this, since they hate the idea of any Orlesian soldiers coming to Ferelden. Yes, they might try, but would anyone with any sense think this would succeed? I doubt Empress Celene I wants the possibility of the dwarves, Dalish elves and Ferelden armies marching against Orlais (and given her background as Loghain's daughter and an astute politican, I think Anora is capable enough to sway her people that this would be an attack on Orlais, the country that previously enslaved them, of trying to rule them again).

Modifié par LobselVith8, 05 août 2010 - 02:56 .

[Sarah1281]

Yeah, the dwarves and Dalish wouldn't give a damn about Orlais attacking. Possibly if the Dalish thought the Orlesians would take their land they'd get involved but there really aren't that many of them and Orlais has conquered them before. Also, they don't have to go all 'OMG, we hate the Blight-ender!', they can just address the problem of having all mages free to do as they like. It could VERY EASILY lead to an exalted march and the fact that they just defeated a Blight will not suddenly mean that they are immune from attack or in a better position to fend one off. Actually, it would make them much easier targets since their country is already in ruins.



They don't NEED Ferelden support to conquer them.

[LobselVith8]

Conquer them? That's a pretty big assumption to make. Considering the stories of dwarves, elves and mages fighting alongside the army, I doubt the Divine would think this would be easy or even possible. The Dalish could be rallied because of what Orlais did to the Dales, and promising to help clear the Deep Roads would easily get support from Bhelen if he was chosen King (especially in light of the Chantry trying to get a foot hold in Orzammar). And there's the Grey Wardens, many of whom are in Orlais, and all across Thedas. Making Alistair King puts a Warden directly on the throne, and with Amaranthine given to the Wardens, they have a lot invested in keeping Ferelden from falling into the hands of any enemy.

Considering the different factions at play here, it doesn't look good for Orlais, especially with Six Circles in Orlais that might be eager to follow suit with the Ferelden Circle, moreso if a war is declared. It's not that I doubt the Divine would be upset, but considering that a war was won against Orlais when they had fewer numbers and virtually no allies, I don't see it happening. Empress Celene I knows that Anora is a capable leader, would she think that attacking them when they are stronger than when they last repelled them from Ferelden be a good idea?

Modifié par LobselVith8, 05 août 2010 - 03:27 .

[DreGregoire]

*sighs*

[Cat Fancy]

Whenever I play a mage, I kind of become your fifteen year-old cousin who just discovered Ayn Rand. Who are you to stifle my greatness, etc... I know it's kind of disingenuous (not good at spelling at that word) to suggest this, but how is strictly controlling and monitoring mages any different, than, say, any group of people less physically powerful than another group uniting to control the more powerful group (good wording. best wording.)? I really think, if Thedasians (?) are all that concerned about mages, they should just kill them when they're discovered. Imprisoning them and using them to fight their wars or whatever is obnoxious- and dangerous. It breeds resentment and that's not good a good thing to breed in people who can indiscriminately throw down all kinds of awful AoE spells on easy, and only have to be a little more careful on higher difficulty levels. I understand why the Chantry what it does, and I understand why the circle mages turn to blood magic. SOME group of people's gonna have to die.



Anyway, Wynne. She acquits herself well sometimes in companion conversations, which is certainly more than she ever does with the Warden. Wynne, you're SO ANNOYING, but you aren't exactly wrong when you're hating on Zevran. I feel sorry for her at times, but then she goes and disapproves -40 if you use blood magic to steal the life energy of slaves but doesn't care if you let that guy escape with the slaves? Yikes. Wynne! She doesn't care that you're screwing people over, she just doesn't want you doing it in a particular manner? That's weird, Wynne. You're weird. (She actually disapproves, probably, but the wiki doesn't list a number and who am I to question the wiki?)



Also, half of the time she's talking about how old she is and then the other half of the time she's chastising people for talking about how old she is. Also, she keeps talking about how old and decrepit she is, but they only have the one female model so.... whatever, Wynne. "I'm old." "Wynne, you certainly are old." "!"



I see no problem with the tranquil, aside from the fact that they don't make sense and why do they talk like that. "Thank you. That was an uncomfortable experience." "So.... would you say that you FELT uncomfortable?" "..." "That's nonsense, tranquil." They don't mind their fate, so why should I care? It's not as if they're actively suffering. Again, if mages are so dangerous, they should be killed or tranquilized.



There's a reason three out of four recruitable mages have been apostates and that's because content circle mages aren't particularly admirable. Er... not that Morrigan and Velanna are particularly admirable. Or likable. My point has disappeared, as it sometimes does. Admirable's the wrong word. Anyway: what's up with that? Something's up with that.



(I also didn't expect the Circle-independence boon to mean anything in the long or short term, and I've always been kind of cheesed off that Mages are the only people who have to deal with a tool like Irving in their epilogue. But not THAT cheesed off because life's too short)



The Chantry. I don't care about the Chantry. It has some cool people, but it's also, oppressive, awful, and hypocritical, like pretty much everything else in Ferelden. At least it isn't as bad as Orzammar. And... it's just a loose analogue of Christianity. So... there's that. Can't get worked up about loose analogues.