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[EccentricSage]

errant_knight wrote...

FiliusMartis wrote...

I'm of the opinion that forcing Tranquility is too extreme and taking their children away is not a protective measure. Furthermore, the most unstable and evil people are usually not killed on sight... there are trials and degrees of punishment for different things. Moderation is what is lacking.

I agree, although the tower is no place for a child to grow up, especially a non-mage child. The whole tranquil thing is repugnant, but I find myself unable to think of an alternative solution as to what to do with mages who seem unlikely to be able to resist the inherent temptations.

I'm ocasionaly tempted to bash a customer's skull in at work, you know, and I probably physically could.  Yet that does not mean I must be locked away 'just in case', does it?  Every human being has the ability to be tempted and most have the ability to act on their temptations.  Yet you would not have all of humanity under lock and key.

Furthermore, the power of a mage IS limited.  It is not akin to an atomic bomb, and there's no reason why Templars can't police FREE mages and only  imprison ones who abuse their powers.

[EccentricSage]

errant_knight wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

You know aside from Jowan's girl being sent to the mages prison I haven't heard much more about it in game but then again I don't read every little scrap of info I get unless I need to LOL. And in terms of Ander in awakenings did anybody else find it a little enlightening to realize how many times he had been caught and returned without getting himself slain or some such. Very strange, it's almost as if not all templars are the kill them on sight type. Maybe they were more understanding towards him because he was much older when he came to the tower, but hey this isn't about the chantry is it? Inconsistency at it's best but I would think that not all templars are from the same mold as the chantry would have us believe.

Well, Jowan was a proven Maleficar, while Anders did nothing but escape, although we do see different templars actin in different ways. The templar who was after Anders in Awakening was determined to see him dead, but we don't know if those were her actual orders, or how she was determined to see it play out.

The important point you are missing is that the Templars are even allowed to hunt innocent mages, and to kill them for nothing more than wanting their freedom.  Of course not all Templars are like that... some of them never even had a choice but to become Templars.  But then, the same was true of the **** army.  It's the values of the institution and the cruelty they allow and even advocate that is the root of the evil.

[Herr Uhl]

EccentricSage wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Well, Jowan was a proven Maleficar, while Anders did nothing but escape, although we do see different templars actin in different ways. The templar who was after Anders in Awakening was determined to see him dead, but we don't know if those were her actual orders, or how she was determined to see it play out.

The important point you are missing is that the Templars are even allowed to hunt innocent mages, and to kill them for nothing more than wanting their freedom.  Of course not all Templars are like that... some of them never even had a choice but to become Templars.  But then, the same was true of the **** army.  It's the values of the institution and the cruelty they allow and even advocate that is the root of the evil.

I often wonder why he wasn't made tranquil. He had escaped the tower repeated times, and breaking out Jowan was supposedly something that was liable to tranquil you, before you knew about him being a blood mage.

EccentricSage wrote...

Furthermore, the power of a mage IS limited.  It is not akin to an atomic bomb, and there's no reason why Templars can't police FREE mages and only  imprison ones who abuse their powers.

The resources of the Chantry are limited too. And integrating mages into society again would take time, not for the mages, but for the society.

[EccentricSage]

Herr Uhl, I get what you're saying. But that seems to already be underway with the Mages Collective, the biggest threat to which is the Chantry, hence their bribing Templars with Lerium and asking you to warn the families of accused maleficarum. There are Apostate mages who seem to get along well enough in society as long as they keep their heads low and don't cause trouble, and the Collective aims to help police mages to keep the peace. So there is a working model already in progress for an integrated and peaceful society, though technically curently illegal.



I think the chantry gains a lot by keeping mages as slaves. Not only can they use the power of the mages to their own ends, and gain legal slaves by tranquilising those who are not cooperative. The assumption that they are the only force capable of controlling the terrible evil of mages is what has justified them having their own personal army. It's ultimately a completely selfish system. Once the church looses it's ability to have it's own army and it's own laws, it begins to loose it's influence over governments and citizens. Catholicism is a good example IRL history.



They aren't protecting the public from mages and mages from themselves, in other words, but rather creating a self sustaining cycle of strife as a means to their ends. Their ends being power, of course. One of the same temptations they warn that mages wound be prone to give into. Complete hypocracy.

[errant_knight]

umwhatyousay wrote...

Whenever I play a mage, I kind of become your fifteen year-old cousin who just discovered Ayn Rand. Who are you to stifle my greatness, etc... [...]

Lol! What a great analogy.

[Dean_the_Young]

Given the trouble even small numbers of uncontrolled mages demonstrated in Origins, I'm hard pressed to see why the Chantry and society shouldn't be highly cautious.



Just one demon-possessed boy, after all, wiped out Castle Redcliffe and nearly wiped out the town as well. Redcliffe, one of the most important bastions of Ferelden power. One green, largely untaught, not-at-all malicious boy.



And in a setting in which just eight individual mages are considered major boons to the King's army at Ostagar, a few experienced blood mages took out nearly the entire Circle of Magi, turning many more mages into abominations as well.



And let's not forget such cases as Sentry's Peak, in which a Grey Warden mage, the one 'free' magical society outside of maybe Tevinter, led to abominations and demons overrunning a Grey Warden base.



And, of course, there are always the ones like Morrigan and Flemeth, the first of whom wants to preserve an Old God (potential cataclysm there) and the later who is far more suspect for the mystery of her intentions.



Mages are a potential atom bomb in the Dragon Age world: not literally in the sense of 'will destroy X square miles of civilization), but the great harm any single bad apple can do is extremely disproportionate. It doesn't even take a bad apple, even: a good apple faced with a bad enough moment, coerced into it, or simply without a strong enough core can be just as dangerous to others, and consequently to themselves (when they are killed).



Templar oversight can be overbearing, but the reasons and needs for their presence are very real.

[DreGregoire]

EccentricSage wrote...

They aren't protecting the public from mages and mages from themselves, in other words, but rather creating a self sustaining cycle of strife as a means to their ends. Their ends being power, of course. One of the same temptations they warn that mages wound be prone to give into. Complete hypocracy.

I find it interesting that dragon age actually seems to be showing this to us. Everytime I see one of the scenes with the chantry mothers I can't help but feel like their sour puss faces scream it.  Of course another person may pick up a different vib but I feel like some of the mothers of the chantry act as if they think they are better than anybody else. I guess though that what a person is taught from such a young child can impact a person like that. They are happy to accept what is taught them and seemly happy to live the way they were taught.

[Sarah1281]

but you aren't exactly wrong when you're hating on Zevran.

Yes she is. Completely. She's all 'oh, you're unrepentent and that's wrong' which, if you've bothered to get to know him, you find out is blatantly untrue. Romance him and get more ****iness from her which she realizes she's wrong about and apologizes for.

I see no problem with the tranquil, aside from the fact that they don't make sense and why do they talk like that. "Thank you. That was an uncomfortable experience." "So.... would you say that you FELT uncomfortable?" "..." "That's nonsense, tranquil." They don't mind their fate, so why should I care? It's not as if they're actively suffering. Again, if mages are so dangerous, they should be killed or tranquilized.

Every mage out there should be killed or made Tranquil because they have magic? What an odd thing to say from someone who just said the resented being limited at all when they played as a mage. And of COURSE they don't mind their fate! They have no freaking emotions! That's actually part of what makes it so horrific! If Jowan ever becomes Tranqiul then he won't be capable of minding either and yet we've seen the kind of lengths he goes to to avoid it since he minds it very much before being magically lobotomized. Honestly, that's like saying 'well, people who are forcibly lobotomized lack the ability to care so why should it bother me? Let's do it to everyone dangerous.'

[Cat Fancy]

Sarah1281 wrote...

but you aren't exactly wrong when you're hating on Zevran.

Yes she is. Completely. She's all 'oh, you're unrepentent and that's wrong' which, if you've bothered to get to know him, you find out is blatantly untrue. Romance him and get more ****iness from her which she realizes she's wrong about and apologizes for.

I see no problem with the tranquil, aside from the fact that they don't make sense and why do they talk like that. "Thank you. That was an uncomfortable experience." "So.... would you say that you FELT uncomfortable?" "..." "That's nonsense, tranquil." They don't mind their fate, so why should I care? It's not as if they're actively suffering. Again, if mages are so dangerous, they should be killed or tranquilized.

Every mage out there should be killed or made Tranquil because they have magic? What an odd thing to say from someone who just said the resented being limited at all when they played as a mage. And of COURSE they don't mind their fate! They have no freaking emotions! That's actually part of what makes it so horrific! If Jowan ever becomes Tranqiul then he won't be capable of minding either and yet we've seen the kind of lengths he goes to to avoid it since he minds it very much before being magically lobotomized. Honestly, that's like saying 'well, people who are forcibly lobotomized lack the ability to care so why should it bother me? Let's do it to everyone dangerous.'

I have romanced him, although I wish I hadn't, because I regretted it the whole way through and there isn't really a way to kindly break it off after a certain point. I never let go of the urge to just tell him off whenever I could. Just because you've had a terrible life doesn't make you not a terrible person. I don't like romancing any of the characters, actually, don't worry, because I think they're all kind of awful in their own ways (...who do I like? uh... Oghren, when he's not in Awakening? \\I know: terrible [I mean, I LIKE all the characters, I just don't want to romance them. they have crippling faults, every one]). I just had Zevran in my party most of last game, and his conversations with Wynne were slightly different than the others (Everyone but him and Morrigan, probably: "Wynne! You're old and wise."). I liked that they were both mean to each other! Because I didn't care for either of them. I did feel sorry for him, but it's always satisfying to let your companions pick the dialogue choices you never could.

As for mages, I dunno. It's kind of like the X-Men. Humans keep committing all kinds of genocide with super-robots and mutant extremists keep doing the same. So much genocide! And I can't see how it well ever stop. One of group is incredibily powerful on a scale that just doesn't exist in real life. I understand why people would want to take drastic measures to control them and I understand why they would take drastic measures to avoid being controlled (especially when I'm playing a mage). What I don't understand is the X-Men. Give peace a chance? Seriously? What? How would THAT work? It wouldn't. Somebody's gonna end up brutally controlling somebody else. Might as well be whatever side I'm on. As for tranquility, I'm way more bothered by people suffering than people NOT suffering. No one would want to have their emotions removed (not that the tranquil make much sense, though), but I'm just not that offended by it. I can understand why people would find that very disagreeable, though.

[DreGregoire]

ugh so anyways back to the chantry and poor wynne. I just totally messed up on my Aonghas playthrough I meant to ask for the mages to be seperated from the tower but I forgot what I was doing in my excitement. I was already thinking about awakenings. LOL. I don't feel like refighting the archdemon right now so I'm going to pretend I asked it anyways. LOL. I can't believe I forgot; especially. after having the heart to heart with Wynne about making things better for the tower. Heh.

[Litticafrost]

the chantry exists to serve man and never control. They have become just as bad as the imperium.



also the loading screen where it mention that the chantry wants to spread its call to the 4 corners of the globe just scream follow my god or die this war is divine will. Yeah that makes me really like them.



The other thing that bugged me about the maker was that he comes across as a child throwing a temper tantrum when things don't go his way. For example he first created the spirits then when they didn't do what he wanted he threw them out his castle and created man. Naturally some spirits became bitter becoming demons which tempted mortals. After this the maker was pretty much my new toys don't do what i want them to do so i'm going to spend my attention on something else. I can't help but think maybe he did create the darkspawn as a form of petty vengence on his toys and that it angers him each time a blight is thwarted.

[TheLegendofWade]

Litticafrost wrote...

the chantry exists to serve man and never control. They have become just as bad as the imperium.

also the loading screen where it mention that the chantry wants to spread its call to the 4 corners of the globe just scream follow my god or die this war is divine will. Yeah that makes me really like them.

The other thing that bugged me about the maker was that he comes across as a child throwing a temper tantrum when things don't go his way. For example he first created the spirits then when they didn't do what he wanted he threw them out his castle and created man. Naturally some spirits became bitter becoming demons which tempted mortals. After this the maker was pretty much my new toys don't do what i want them to do so i'm going to spend my attention on something else. I can't help but think maybe he did create the darkspawn as a form of petty vengence on his toys and that it angers him each time a blight is thwarted.

Yea, sounds like Bioware did a great job copying the current God of Christianity and implementing it into the game.  That's what it's all about.

Adam and Eve bite an apple and God comes storming in the garden--fee fi fo fum...who bit the apple!? (it's like telling a kid not to eat candy and then leaving for 2 days and coming back and seeing that the kid ate candy).   God is a jealous parent in Christian mythology.  So is the Maker.  The Exalted Marches....The Crusades.

It relates perfectly with current Christian religious views and history.  In that respect, the game has a great, dynamic religion.  Keep in mind, the game does show us that there really are good people within the Chantry, but there are also hypocrits and greedy, self-righteous individuals as well.  Just like real life.  

I would be more interested in seeing a more original religion concept; instead of the traditional reliance on real world religions.