Ok. Here we are, Aasim. Let's resume.
Dreaming the Impossible Dream: An Adventurer's Quest for a Functional Version of Spell Shield in SCS v 30
Débuté par
Alesia_BH
, juil. 13 2015 11:29
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#2
Posté 13 juillet 2015 - 11:47
Alesia_BH
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What was your sample size when you tested the EE Spell Shield?
With a vanilla Spell Shield, you need a significant sample size to note failures, since the failures are random and don't occur that often.
As a reminder, an hour ago, I had a 100% success rate with the vanilla Spell Shield in a sample size of 5.
Best,
A,
#3
Posté 14 juillet 2015 - 12:31
Aasim
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Not needed - see the post in original thread.
#4
Posté 14 juillet 2015 - 12:43
Alesia_BH
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To finalize my thoughts on this, here's what I do:- keep your setup as it is
Not an option. My current setup is broken, given my playing style. I have no way of stopping Wish-Breach. At the same time, conventional attacks are now easier to thwart. I'd rather revert to an older install than play with this one.
- the Wish-Breach bug you'll witness maybe two times in entire game; far less than you'll get hit by spell removals
The Wish Breach bug is a big deal, actually. I can foil other attacks on magical defenses consistently, though with effort. I've done it many times in multiple installs. The Wish-Breach behavior introduces an avenue which can't be stopped. It only has to occur once to ruin a game.
- Spell Thrust works vs GoI with it's power set higher, so you might do that (it should bypass GoI & remove SS that way, hence SCS will be optimized)
But by work you mean bypass GoI entirely, when in v10's current implementation GoI is supposed to stop Spell Thrust. SCS mage's expect this. Irrespective of the level setting on Spell Thrust, Spell Thrust should interact with Spell Shield before it interacts with GoI. Whether GoI would block Spell Thrust or not in the absence of Spell Shield should be irrelevant with regards to the interaction between Spell Shield and Spell Thrust. The Spell Shield should come down in either case. With the old version of Spell Shield, when it works, that's how it works.
Ideally, we'd be able to keep Spell Thrust at its current level, and have it interact with the new Spell Shield prior to interacting with GoI. Do you see any way of achieving that?
If you use my tweak to Wish, spell will be reflected by Turning etc. Imo, not a big deal, certainly will be far less problematic than reverting to old SS behaviour.
I'm not at all convinced on that. To get workable Spell Shield behavior with the new version, I'd have to do more than install your patch I'd have to: i) install your patch ii) change Spell Thurst; iii) remove Consistent Breach. That would mean changing the behavior of two key spells: GoI and Breach, in ways that the AI won't be in a position to anticipate.
Ideally, we'd preserve G3's GoI behavior and SCS Consistent Breach's, and have a version of Spell Shield which will interact with incoming attacks on magical defenses before it interacts with other Spell Protections. That's how it used to work, again, when it worked.
Basically, vanilla Spell Shield sticks sometimes, but behaves correctly otherwise. The new version won't stick like the old one did, but with the new version installed, in SCS with the Fixpack, incoming attacks on magical defenses interact with other spell protections before they interact with Spell Shield.
The question is whether we can get the new Spell Shield's lack of random sticky-ness combined with the old Spell Shield's ability to interact with incoming magical attacks before they interact with other spell protections.
Do you see a way to implement?
Best,
A.
#5
Posté 14 juillet 2015 - 12:47
Alesia_BH
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Questions before I test:
In the absence of Spell Shield, have we preserved G3 GoI's ability to stop Spell Thrust?
In the absence of Spell Shield, have we preserved SCS Consistent Breach's behavior?
Best,
A.
#6
Posté 14 juillet 2015 - 01:43
Aasim
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GoI stops ST with Fixpack, I haven't changed this. ST removes Spell Shield regardless of GoI.
I made ST will *always* remove only SS even if you have GoI active, SCS assumes it works this way (it's explicit about it).
I don't understand the 2nd tho. When Breach is cast at you, if won't bypass Turning. It will remove Spell Shield if applicable. This I've changed, including Wand & Wish Breach. Wish Breach won't bypass Turning however - this is a bit more complicated matter.
With my tweak, you get everything you want actually, sans one.
Spell Thrust doesn't bypass GoI - works
Spell Thrust destroys SS even under GoI (as old Spell Shield) - works
Breach doesn't bypass ST, as SCS assumes -works
Breach removes SS even under ST (as old Spell Shield) -works
Wand works fine (have no idea how wand worked) - I assume this is fine as well
That leaves Wish option. To fix this I need to
a) make a custom Breach spell with power level 0 so that it bypass Turning
2) make SCS Whish Breach use this spell instead of the one it uses now
Both of these are easy.
c) make Spell Shield protect you against this spell, but also get removed in the process.
This I need to figure out how - if Spell Shield had a fixed duration, this would be 3 lines of code.
Since it has variable duration per level, I need to create code which patches each header with correct duration.
I'll have some (little) time tomorrow morning, if I can fix it by that time I will, if not - two weeks 'till I'm back.
#7
Posté 14 juillet 2015 - 02:02
Alesia_BH
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GoI stops ST with Fixpack, I haven't changed this. ST removes Spell Shield regardless of GoI.
I made ST will *always* remove only SS even if you have GoI active, SCS assumes it works this way (it's explicit about it).
That's perfect. That's what we want- assuming it works as intended.
I don't understand the 2nd tho.
You seem to understand. Forget about Spell Shield for the moment. We're thinking about a character who is not running Spell Shield. The character is running just Stoneskins and Spell Turning. With Consistent Breach installed, Spell Turning would block an incoming Breach. My question was whether our tweak has preserved that behavior. The answer, it seems, is that it should, if it works.
With my tweak, you get everything you want actually, sans one.
Spell Thrust doesn't bypass GoI - works
Spell Thrust destroys SS even under GoI (as old Spell Shield) - works
Breach doesn't bypass ST, as SCS assumes -works
Breach removes SS even under ST (as old Spell Shield) -works
Wand works fine (have no idea how wand worked) - I assume this is fine as well
That's our objective, yes. We're on the same page!
As for the wand, we want both the Pierce Magic and Breach effects to work exactly like their spell counter parts.
Unfortunately, after installing the tweaks, Spell Thrust no longer works. It isn't removing either Spell Shield or Spell Protections in my install.
If I'm running just, say MSD -without GoI or Spell Shield active- Spell Thrust will have no effect.
What install did you test in?
Best,
A.
NW: Have you replicated the Spell Shield/GoI/Spell Shield and Spell Spell Shield/Spell Turning/Breach behavior I've observed in a clean non-EE, non-Revisions, SCSv30 + v10 install? I'd hate to see you invest time in a fix if these issues are specific to my install. Upon observing a bug, replication in a comparable install should be the first step in the resolution process.
#8
Posté 14 juillet 2015 - 02:13
Aasim
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EE2 + SCS (with Breach doesn't bypass), no Spell Rev.
This is odd. I've reinstalled the mod, works fine for me. It shouldn't matter if EE or vanilla BG.
Breach bypasses Turning/Deflection
I can't replicate this....
When Spell Shield is down, does the message displays ""Spell Shield dispelled"?
Spell Thrust does nothing apart removing Spell Shield
Again, can't replicate.
Can you uninstall the mod and see if it works properly then? I can't believe this is linked to my tweak since it doesn't modify neither Spell Thrust nor Breach effects/spell power/level. It changes the underlying spells to remove Spell Shield regardless of other protections, that's all.
#9
Posté 14 juillet 2015 - 02:22
Alesia_BH
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Can you uninstall the mod and see if it works properly then?
I was thinking the same thing. The install I'm testing your tweak on is a fresh one, which I have limited experience with. It's not the install I've been playing with.
Doing that now.
#10
Posté 14 juillet 2015 - 02:24
Aasim
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You don't need to install whole SCS. Just two components - Initialize mod & More Consistent Breach spell. If it works there, it will work after you slap AI improvements over it.
#11
Posté 14 juillet 2015 - 02:27
Aasim
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NW: Have you replicated the Spell Shield/GoI/Spell Shield and Spell Spell Shield/Spell Turning/Breach behavior I've observed in a clean non-EE, non-Revisions, SCSv30 + v10 install? I'd hate to see you invest time in a fix if these issues are specific to my install. Upon observing a bug, replication in a comparable install should be the first step in the resolution process.
Yeah, it's the same - but that's pretty much what I expected to get. 
#12
Posté 14 juillet 2015 - 02:28
Aasim
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Oh - and my tweak goes AFTER SCS. I hope you do know that....
#13
Posté 14 juillet 2015 - 02:35
Alesia_BH
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Yeah, it's the same - but that's pretty much what I expected to get.
That's what I expected as well, but it's good to have confirmation.
#14
Posté 14 juillet 2015 - 02:36
Alesia_BH
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Oh - and my tweak goes AFTER SCS. I hope you do know that....
I'm aware.
#15
Posté 14 juillet 2015 - 02:39
Alesia_BH
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Okay. Wonkiness in the fresh test install confirmed. This isn't surprising. Installing SCS on a Mac is a bit of a gamble. Oddities occur. Installs have to be tested before they can be used.
I'm now trying your tweak with a copy of my current play install, one that behaves correctly, save the Spell Shield related anomalies we are attempting to fix.
Hopefully everything will work.
Best,
A.
#16
Posté 14 juillet 2015 - 02:49
Aasim
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Don't tell me you tried this w/o SCS... please....it won't work without it, Mac has nothing to do with it.
You did, didn't you?
#17
Posté 14 juillet 2015 - 02:52
Alesia_BH
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Okay. In my play install, which works aside from the Spell Shield issues, your tweak is having no effect that I've been able to discern.
The GoI/Spell Shield/Spell Thrust behavior is unchanged. The Spell Protection/Spell Shield/Breach behavior is unchanged as well.
Weidu reads standard SCS + Fixpack with your tweak at the end.
Best,
A.
#18
Posté 14 juillet 2015 - 02:58
Aasim
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We need 3rd party to test this then. You can check one thing; criticals/backup/13 folder.
It should have spwi321c, spwi419c and a few others, all spwi***c. Are they there?
#19
Posté 14 juillet 2015 - 02:59
Alesia_BH
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Don't tell me you tried this w/o SCS... please....it won't work without it, Mac has nothing to do with it.
You did, didn't you?
Aasim, and I mean this gently and respectfully, you seriously underestimate me. You come across as a fool in part because you assume that I'm a fool.
You explain the obvious all the time, and you don't defer to my expertise on subjects that I know more about than you.
These issues are not restricted to this discussion, but also discussions we've had previously.
Note that I do you the courtesy of deferring to your expertise on issues you know more about, like coding. You should reciprocate.
I know you mean well, but that needs to stop.
Don't take offense. We're friends. You're a dear. But take it easy with the mansplaining, mkay! 
Best,
A.
#20
Posté 14 juillet 2015 - 03:06
Alesia_BH
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We need 3rd party to test this then. You can check one thing; criticals/backup/13 folder.
It should have spwi321c, spwi419c and a few others, all spwi***c. Are they there?
Yes: they're there.
#22
Posté 14 juillet 2015 - 03:14
Aasim
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We need 3rd party to test this then.
Then this is what must be done.
#23
Posté 14 juillet 2015 - 03:16
Alesia_BH
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We need 3rd party to test this then.
I concur. Third party replication would be helpful.
Best,
A.
#24
Posté 14 juillet 2015 - 04:28
Grond0
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You wanted someone else to try this out. My current install is SCS v30 / Fixpack v10 in a BGT setup. Here's my Weidu log if you want it (SCS more consistent breach component is present).
Spoiler
I tried one character casting spell thrust at another:
- when running GOI and spell shield the spell is ineffective, i.e. the GOI is being treated as the first line of defence. That's also the case when spell turning is added.
- without GOI the spell shield is dispelled and spell thrust then ignores spell turning.
I also tried using breach:
- that initially bounces off spell turning, i.e. that is considered prior to spell shield.
- once spell turning is used up breach will dispel spell shield.
Finally, I experimented a bit with spell trap:
- spell turning is used as the first line of defence, then spell trap and only then spell shield.
I'm moving house today and will also have a new computer to set up in the new house. I'm not quite sure when that will get done, but if you do want me to do more testing I should be able to do so in a few days.
- Alesia_BH aime ceci
#25
Posté 14 juillet 2015 - 04:38
Alesia_BH
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You wanted someone else to try this out. My current install is SCS v30 / Fixpack v10 in a BGT setup.
Thanks Grond0! I appreciate it. That's exactly what I've been observing. We now know for certain that we are dealing with a general issue, not an install specific one.
Here's what I'd like you to do when you get the chance. Try installing Aasim's patch. See if that solves the problem. The link is below.
The component you need is the last one.
Best,
A.
