So I'm finding my testing is not nearly as close to your's as I was hoping.
Spell shield does not stop wish breach (even patched)
Spell Thrust's power lever is set to 8 (bypassing Globe unfortunately)
I want to verify your troubles with Ruby ray if I can though. If i'm right the new spellshield is (206)?
as it stands ruby ray seems to be working fine for me while patched.
So I'm finding my testing is not nearly as close to your's as I was hoping.
Spell shield does not stop wish breach (even patched)
Spell Thrust's power lever is set to 8 (bypassing Globe unfortunately)
Interesting. Can you post a Weidu log?
If Spell Shield isn't stopping Wish-Breach with the patch installed, then the patch probably isn't being applied properly.
Can you tell me what effect the spell I Wish for My Enemy's Magical Defences to Be Utterly Destroyed applies? Does it apply Breach or Spellstrike? If it is applying Breach, then that's a sure sign that the patch isn't working, assuming you haven't edited the code.
As for the GoI behavior, let me ask again: is that patched or unpatched?
I want to verify your troubles with Ruby ray if I can though. If i'm right the new spellshield is (206)?
as it stands ruby ray seems to be working fine for me while patched.
Interesting. Let's confirm that we are working with the same setup. Do post you Weidu log. Let me know what the version number is on your EE install?
The new Spell Shield doesn't have a special opcode. It confers a list of immunities to spells. The old one was opcode 226.
Best,
A.
wish is Definitely casting breach. its bypassing everything including spell shield
As for the GoI, its the same effect before and after Aasim patch.
and i'm definitely running new spellshield then if i'm reading my CRE correctly.
I've also realized I didn't mention i'm running spell revisions minus their spell shield change. Regarding my spell thrust issues, I just did a clean install SCS to narrow down why mine has a power level of 8. its definitely changed somewhere in SCS not spell revisions.
It's good to hear from you again, Relay.
I've also realized I didn't mention i'm running spell revisions minus their spell shield change.
Ok. That would explain some of the discrepancies. I would expect differences in a SR install.
I can't comment on the behavior of any of these spells in SR. I don't play SR and I haven't tested in SR. I don't possess a SR install.
wish is Definitely casting breach. its bypassing everything including spell shield
I do know his patch wasn't designed for SR.
As for the GoI, its the same effect before and after Aasim patch.
Again, Aasim's patch wasn't designed for SR. I wouldn't necessarily expect it to have any effect on the Spell thrust/GoI interaction in SR.
Overall, the behavior you're reporting is consistent with Aasim's reports from his SR install. Wish-Breach bypassing Spell Shield, but everything else, other than the Wand, working as SR intends. Again, I can't fully comment on the details of the mechanics in SR, but the impression I'm under is that GoI is not suppose to stop Spell Thrust in SR.
Regarding my spell thrust issues, I just did a clean install SCS to narrow down why mine has a power level of 8. its definitely changed somewhere in SCS not spell revisions.
This sounds like a local issue, given that there have been multiple replications of the Spell Thrust/GoI interaction in SCS v30 with the Fixpack v10 sans SR. Setting aside Spell Shield for the moment, with those mods installed, and nothing else, Spell Thrust should not penetrate GoI.
Are you sure there aren't any SR files in your "clean" install?
Best,
A.
Yes I have verified the spwi321.spl file with NI before installing SCS on the clean install and then after.
Spellthrust on vanilla EE has a power of 4 with 4 seperate effects and after SCS install, it's changed to a single EFF with a power level of 8. This is clearly the reason my ST is bypassing globe, and i've similarly verified that SR doesn't change globe in anyway. In any case SR doesn't seem to affect whether spell thrust works.
As far as breach's are concerned though, SCS and SR both use the same implementation of the consistent breach fix, the option is actually skipped during install if SCS detects spell revisions.
I can live with wish breach on my install because it seems to interact with SI:A before anything and if I'm ever in position where SI:A is removed, I've most likely already lost my spellshield.
That is except for spell thrust based attacks, which is why I'm so stuck on that. Right now 2 consecutive spellthrusts will take down SS then SI:A and open me up to remove magic regardless of any higher level protections. In practice its not really an issue from what I can tell, SCS Script assumes Globe blocks spellthrust (unless all the mage's I've consoled have only 1 memorized :S) and its easy enough to self police myself in that regard.
I've semi taken over your discussion with my own install issues, I'm very sorry about that!
mostly I'd like to help you replicate or confirms some of your theories, as I have a Clean install of both BG2ee and Vanilla with SCSv30 /fixpack
Spellthrust on vanilla EE has a power of 4 with 4 seperate effects and after SCS install, it's changed to a single EFF with a power level of 8. This is clearly the reason my ST is bypassing globe, and i've similarly verified that SR doesn't change globe in anyway.
That's interesting. The interaction between Spell Thrust and GoI in SCS v30 with the Fixpack v10 is pretty well documented.
We've been able to replicate the behavior I've observed already. I'd be curious to hear if anyone can replicate what you've observed.
So you know, in my v30 v10 setup, Spell Thrust has two effects, both Cast Spell (146). One applies SPWI321B, the other applies SPW321C. Both are set to power level 4. SPWI321B is designed to take down standard protections. SPWI321C takes down Spell Shield.
As far as breach's are concerned though, SCS and SR both use the same implementation of the consistent breach fix, the option is actually skipped during install if SCS detects spell revisions.
Noted. As mentioned earlier, I can't comment on SR at all. I'll defer to anyone with SR experience on SR issues. I know nothing about SR.
That is except for spell thrust based attacks, which is why I'm so stuck on that. Right now 2 consecutive spellthrusts will take down SS then SI:A and open me up to remove magic regardless of any higher level protections. In practice its not really an issue from what I can tell, SCS Script assumes Globe blocks spellthrust (unless all the mage's I've consoled have only 1 memorized :S) and its easy enough to self police myself in that regard.
I can see why that would be disconcerting. Again, I'm not certain why the power level of Spell Thrust is set to 8 in your install.
@Anyone else. Have you seen what Relay is seeing?
mostly I'd like to help you replicate or confirms some of your theories, as I have a Clean install of both BG2ee and Vanilla with SCSv30 /fixpack
We've already replicated the Spell Thrust/GoI/new Spell Shield behavior in non-EE v30 v10 installs. We've also replicated the Breach/Spell Protection/new Spell Shield behavior and the Wish-Breach/new Spell Shield behavior in non-EE v30 v10 installs.
The only thing that requires replication, at present, is the behavior of Ruby Ray and Spell Shield in a EE 1.3 SCS v30 install without SR.
I'd appreciate it if you gave that a try. I think it best if you use a truly clean install- one on which SR has never been installed. I also think it best if the EE version numbers are controlled for.
At present, the RR/Spell Shield behavior I've observed may be a local issue restricted to my EE install or it may be a universal issue. I have no evidence in either direction. I can't draw a conclusion.
Best,
A.
Btw, Relay. You seem like a detail oriented, safety conscious player. Have you even considered participating in the No Reload Challenge?
I'm in the process of setting up how I feel my mods should interact, but yes I've been following closely for some time hoping to join in soon. I have some cool Idea's for interactivity with the forums too when I get to that point.
Thank you by the way, your approach with Aphril's game seems the most akin to mine so far.
As far as my clean BG2EE I cant comment on the version # as it's the Steam version Freshly downloaded. I've now installed SCS with only the improved breach and anti magic attacks penetrate invisibility options. Globe stops ST 100% and Ruby ray seems to work just fine. I do think I was able to replicate your problem before with a completely clean install and only the core SCS installed. ruby seemed to be completely inneffective at that time.
I'm in the process of setting up how I feel my mods should interact, but yes I've been following closely for some time hoping to join in soon. I have some cool Idea's for interactivity with the forums too when I get to that point.
Sounds great. Looking forward to it! 
Thank you by the way, your approach with Aphril's game seems the most akin to mine so far.
I was getting that sense. 
As far as my clean BG2EE I cant comment on the version # as it's the Steam version Freshly downloaded. I've now installed SCS with only the improved breach and anti magic attacks penetrate invisibility options. Globe stops ST 100%
Ok. Globe stops ST 100% of the time. That's as expected.
We're still left with the mystery of where the single EFF power level 8 Spell Thrust in your other install came from.
And in that edition RR works. Noted.
I do think I was able to replicate your problem before with a completely clean install and only the core SCS installed. ruby seemed to be completely ineffective at that time.
Interesting. So you were able to replicate the RR issue in one setup, but not all setups.
By completely ineffective you mean that it did not remove Spell Shield, or that it did not remove Spell Shield or Spell Protections?
I actually haven't tested RR against Spell Protections in the EE install where I noted the Spell Shield/RR interaction issues. I'll do that soon.
Anyhoo. I'm looking forward to your participation in NR Challenge! When do you think that might happen?
Best,
A.
I'm super happy with where my mods are atm. Even with the spell thrust issues, as long as SCS believes globe blocks it, I'm perfectly willing to follow the same rules.
So as long as I can feel comfortable with mage fights in my current playthrough I'm pretty much ready to start a no-reload
I'm super happy with where my mods are atm. Even with the spell thrust issues, as long as SCS believes globe blocks it, I'm perfectly willing to follow the same rules.
So as long as I can feel comfortable with mage fights in my current playthrough I'm pretty much ready to start a no-reload
Understood. Here's what I've found. SCS expects GoI to stop Spell Thrust, but it also expects Spell Thrust to remove Spell Shield in the presence of GoI, like it does when the old Spell Shield is used. As a consequence, mages will launch Spell Thrust based attacks on your Spell Shield in SCS even if you are running GoI. This should work, but it doesn't. In your setup, it does work, apparently.
Impliedly, there is a partial workaround to the GoI/Spell Thrust issue here. Perhaps that's what you're driving at? If Spell Thrust is tweaked so that it behaves like it did in Fixpack v9, by changing the power level to 5, then SCS mages will be able to successfully take down Spell Shields in the presence of GoI as they expect. And so long as their script prevents them from targeting Spell Thrust through GoI (in the absence of Spell Shield), we should end up seeing the behavior we desire, even if the spells aren't working as they should. So long as the player self restricts and takes down GoIs before launching attacks on Spell Immunities via Spell Thrust, we should end up with a mechanic that functions reasonably well.
There are a few problems with that approach, however. The player will no longer be able to recast GoI to intercept incoming Spell Thrusts. So, for example if I've lost my Spell Shield and my GoI, but still have my Spell Immunities up, and I hear "manos" from a mid-high level mage, my moves would be either: 1) recast Spell Shield or 2) recast GoI. Of those two options, GoI would often be the more desirable choice since GoI has a shorter casting time and can be cast from a less bottlenecked level. With our workaround active, we'd be forced to use Spell Shield in those situations. Without a Breach fix, we'd run into a similar issue. Aasim noted that SCS mages will try not to cast Breach at a character running Spell Protections. But as you've probably noticed, it isn't at all hard to make them do that by, for example, deploying a Spell Shield/ProMW/Spell Defelction trigger in response to an incoming Breach. In those situations, we'd end up erroneously keeping our Spell Shields.
It's a partial workaround with flaws, but assuming the player self restricts, it may be one of the better options, until we get a proper patch.
Now might be a good time to note that I've revised my view on the significance of the Spell Thrust/GoI/Spell Shield behavior. Initially, it struck me a a major problem. After experimenting with Kangaxx, it seemed like less of a problem. After playing through multiple fights with low-mid, mid level mages, however, I'm back to thinking that it's a serious issue. Arcane defenses are more robust than they should be. It's almost like the days of the pre-SCS SI:A+SI:D+II mechanic again, although not quite as bad since very high level mages with oodles of spell slots at least have a chance.
Best,
A.
EDIT: I just recalled a situation from gameplay where the proposed workaround would present problems. Kangaxx sometimes went Khleben's->Ruby Ray->Spell Thrust (in that order) against Arcadia who was running Spell Shield, Spell Turning, and GoI amongst other spells. What should happen in that situation is that Khleben's should take down the Spell Shield, RR should take down the Spell Turning and then Spell Thrust should be stopped by the GoI, leaving you with your Spell Immunities intact. If we modded Spell Thrust to power level 5, or if you used your power level 8 version, you'd lose your Spell Immunities when you shouldn't.
There are probably other situations like this.
NW: I think I should clarify that all of my comments apply to non-SR setups. I have no knowledge about SR setups, nor do I have any opinions on SR setups.
Btw. I'm still looking forward to seeing you in the challenge! I hope you'll get started soon!
Best,
A.
Apparently the problem is worse than I thought, I replicated your scenario and indeed I am vulnerable to remove magic or breach in 3 rounds. However, under that assumption, I'm actually vulnerable to remove in 2 rounds. Casting any high level spell removal (even secret word) to remove Spell shield leave's my spell immunities open to a simple spell thrust.
I've now had lavok cast ruby ray then spellthrust on me as well.... very unsettling.
EDIT: LOL funny thing is Minor spell turning is actually better served to protect my SI's than GoI. It at least gives a 50/50 chance of taking the hit
Yeah. The assumption underlying the proposed workaround is that mages will never toss Spell Thrust at a GoI protected PC. That assumption doesn't hold, however.
I don't think the work around works after all. That was my initial suspicion, prior to your suggestion. I'm back to that view now.
We either need a patch, or we need to play with the wonky mechanic and make our peace with the fact that low/mid/mid-high level mage battles are auto-wins with GoI/Spell Shield/SI:A/SI:D/II/Specfic Protection/save bonuses. I'm taking the latter approach in my current game.
At the same time, I feel I should note that Aasim claims that SR is fine, that everything works as it should in SR, save Wish-Breach and the Wand of Spell Striking. I can't comment on the accuracy of that statement, but now may be a good time to play SR. You'll be more vulnerable in SR, but that is as intended.
I also feel I should note that the pre-SCS v 21 setups with the old Spell Shield work pretty well, actually. Setting aside beholders (and people debate the desirability of that behavior), the old Spell Shield behaves fairly well in response to hostile NPC attacks on Spell Shield protected PCs, with occasional exceptions. Hostile NPCs don't cast Spell Shield at all in earlier versions, so no issues there. The only problem with that approach is that you miss out on some creature and script improvements. Using an older setup is not a bad idea though, until we get a patch. I kind of wish I had done that for Aphril's run. Unfortunately, I didn't learn about the problems with the new Spell Shield until after I started the run. Personally, if Aasim doesn't produce a patch for the new Spell Shield, I'll probably revert, at least for mage play-throughs.
Best,
A.
EDIT: LOL funny thing is Minor spell turning is actually better served to protect my SI's than GoI. It at least gives a 50/50 chance of taking the hit
Are we talking about SR? Of course, even if we're not talking SR, we've already established that you have a funky power 8 version of ST so I don't know how that might behave.
As an aside, I'll note that in my experiments I found casting order relevant, at least with respect to GoI and Spell Deflection. If I cast Spell Deflection first, an incoming Pierce Magic, for example, will consistently take down the SD and leave the GoI untouched. The converse holds as well. Note, however, that this was all Five Flagons testing between Aphril and Aerie and the sample sizes were small. I haven't tested this in combat. This is a preliminary finding, not something I'd bank on.
I'll also note, as an aside, that I find redundant spell protections to be an effective way to increase my magic number. Running Spell Turning + Spell Deflection, for example, is not wasteful. It gives you an additional layer of protection in between incoming RRs and your SIs. I call that the 6+ method of defending SIs from mid-level single target debuffs. I've been using that method since my Improved Anvil v3 solo.
In a nutshell, my defensive strategy is to shield my SIs and Specific Protections from Spell Thrust and Secret Word with Spell Shield and GoI, use Spell Shield and 6+ to shield them from RR, Pierce Magic, and Pierce Shield, and Spell Shield to protect them from Khleben's, Spell Strike, and Wish-Breach (in old SCS version, or new Aasim patched ones). Note that Spell Shield features prominently in all cases, hence the criticality of having a properly functioning version of that spell in my game world.
Best,
A.
@ Alesia
1) Spell Thrust I cannot code (maybe Crevs can....Crevs??). However, what you want to accomplish is fairly easy to do in NI. Open spwi321, the 2nd 146 opcode; which has "remove protections by type:unknown) must have it's power set higher so it bypasses GoI while the first 146 is to be left at 3. (set the 2nd to power= 9). You should get 2 messages when cating ST at one under GoI and SS - both "Spell Shield dispelled" and "Spell innefective". Spell Shield will come down however.
2) Breach - whatever I tried, it always ends the same - bounces off Turning and/or is eaten by Deflection. Changing it's sec type, power level settings - nothing makes it bypass Turning/Deflection.
3) Wish - again, I cannot code the Spell Shield patch for it. Above my expertise. 
ad 1) - this is an "incompatibility" in between Fixpackv10 and SCS basically. I'll note it in SCS thread at G3.
ad 2) - not much I can do. I can make it "work" but that involves making Breach actually bypass Turning, which is probably worse. SCS won't use Breach vs either SS or Turning/Deflection, so I guess DavidW tought of that already.
ad 3) - again, I can make the change in NI (copy the original spell dw#wish1.spl effects to a seperate .spl file say WSBREACH.spl, add one more 146 to remove protections by type (spell shield, probably 14, call it WSBREACHb.spl), make the original dw#wish1.spl cast these two spells, make Spell Shield protect you from WSBREACHa.spl per duration.
Coding this otoh... is a different issue.
(I might be able to do it with some practice, but after 2 weeks or so of sea I'm Weidu-ignorant beyond belief; I cannot understand even my own code 
)
I've also realized I didn't mention i'm running spell revisions minus their spell shield change. Regarding my spell thrust issues, I just did a clean install SCS to narrow down why mine has a power level of 8. its definitely changed somewhere in SCS not spell revisions.
As per this - Relay, SRv3 you seem to be using doesn't change Spell Shield at all. Spell Thrust removes ignores GoI by default in SR.
Likewise, I don't know how good you're in No-Reloads, but as a fellow SR player I'd very much vote against SRv3. While it's great and all - it's sometimes very overwhelming for the player to cope with the save penalties involved (iirc, Flesh to Stone has -4 penalty to save, Wail of Banshee has -6). v4 is *much* more balanced overall (only HLAs have such insane penalty to save throws), and the number of additional fixes/tweaks/new spells is huge, see the spoiler tag here. You can ask Demi for access, or I'll send you mine if you don't have G3 account. There are some bugs present but nothing gamebreaking/unfixable.
Welcome back, Aasim!
Thank you for your efforts. You've been a big help.
I'll try to implement via NI when I get the chance. I may have some questions for you, depending on how that goes.
I hope to see you back in the challenge soon! Hopefully Relay will join us, too.
Best,
A.
. I may have some questions for you, depending on how that goes.
NP, I'll help if I can. When I get my modding mojo back I'll probably make those changes above properly coded - but I'm itching to go after aTweaks demons once again...
NP, I'll help if I can. When I get my modding mojo back I'll probably make those changes above properly coded - but I'm itching to go after aTweaks demons once again...
Understood. Go get 'em Aasim!
Best,
A.
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