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[TheThirdRace]

-- Original post --
It came to my attention recently that Armor Penetration could be much better than what I thought. (Thanks yarpenthemad21)
 
I just got the Hakkon dagger and I really don't know if I should go for Attack or Armor Penetration.
 
My question is at what point does Armor Penetration becomes better than Attack for Perilous and Nightmare?
 
Any numbers would be greatly appreciated, all I have right now is Goxhen guide and I know it's far from being entirely accurate...

He does list DPS stats in this order for "most damage" to "less damage":
3% Flanking Dmg > 1.75% Attack > 3% Armor Pen > 1.75% Crit Chance = 1.75 Dexterity (rogue) >1.75 Willpower > 1.75 Magic (mage) = 1.75 Strength (warrior) > > 1.75 Cunning > 3% Crit Dmg > 3% Barrier Dmg > 3% Guard Dmg

Anyone has any idea?

-- Current results --
*** Edit #3 ***
After a lot of feedback, here are what we learned...

Your amount of %Attack before crafting a Tier3 weapon upgrade has a huge impact on the results. My first calculation were with 0% Attack before any Tier3 weapon upgrade and the results was 62+ Armor (see Edit #1). After including my 40% Attack before crafting, the Armor target was reduced to 40 (see Edit #2). Shaving 1/3 Armor is already huge, but it plays even better with the second thing we learned in this thread...

Enemy levels increase each zone, meaning their health and armor increase too. For example, a Perilous Venatori footsoldier could have 30 Armor on area 1, but might have 35 on area 2 or even 50 on area 5. We still don't have the exact numbers for every units (all numbers in the previous example are fictive), but the fact that Armor increase each zones makes a target of "40+ Armor" even easier to reach.

Thus, we can draw these conclusions:

• The lower your weapon damage is (not DPS, I really mean damage), the faster Armor Penetration will become better than Attack
• The more %Attack you have before crafting a T3 weapon upgrade, the faster Armor Penetration will become better than %Attack
• As a general rule, you'll reach that Armor "target" somewhere in Perilous (area 1 to 5). You'll still need to calculate the numbers for your exact situation, but I think it's safe to say that it will become better to use Armor Penetration for any T3 upgrade whenever you play Perilous, unless you always die on first zone...

*** CAREFUL ***
Armor Penetration has no effect whatsoever on magical attacks. This means it's not worth a damn on Mages. Most, if not all Avvar abilities are Elemental damage, thus it also doesn't help him the slightest unless you auto-attack a lot.

-- Previous results --
Edit #1: My first attempt at finding out

Spoiler

*** Edit #1 ***
Ok, I've applied the damage formula and it seems Armor Penetration becomes better than Attack when enemies have 62+ armor.

Here's how I came to the 62 armor value...

Damage formula
final_damage = (base_damage * rand(0.95 to 1.05) - armor * (1 - armor_penetration))
* (ability_multiplier)
* (1 + critical_damage_bonus + flanking_bonus)
* (1 + attack_bonus + damage_multiplier + type_bonus)
* (1 - magic_resistance)

Assumptions
Weapon damage -> 167 (Hakkon dagger)
Armor Penetration -> 18% (6x Dawnstone for Tier3 dagger grip)
Attack -> 10.5% (6x Everite for Tier3 dagger grip)
Rand(0.95 to 1.05) -> 1 (Normalized value for simplicity)
Any "text" value -> 0

Case #1 - 60 Armor
0% AP, 0% ATT
final_damage = (167 * 1 - 60 * (1 - 0))
* (ability_multiplier)
* (1 + critical_damage_bonus + flanking_bonus)
* (1 + attack_bonus + damage_multiplier + type_bonus)
* (1 - magic_resistance) = 107 damage

18% AP, 0% ATT
final_damage = (167 * 1 - 60 * (1 - 0.18))
* (ability_multiplier)
* (1 + critical_damage_bonus + flanking_bonus)
* (1 + attack_bonus + damage_multiplier + type_bonus)
* (1 - magic_resistance) = 117.8 damage

0% AP, 10.5% ATT
final_damage = (167 * 1 - 60 * (1 - 0))
* (ability_multiplier)
* (1 + critical_damage_bonus + flanking_bonus)
* (1 + 0.105 + damage_multiplier + type_bonus)
* (1 - magic_resistance) = 118.235 damage

Conclusion: 10.5% ATT is better than 18% AP at 60 Armor

Case #2 - 61 Armor
For easier reading, I simplified the formula by removing unused values

0% AP, 0% ATT
final_damage = (167 - 61 * (1 - 0))
* (1 + attack_bonus) = 106 damage

18% AP, 0% ATT
final_damage = (167 - 61 * (1 - 0.18))
* (1 + attack_bonus) = 116.98 damage

0% AP, 10.5% ATT
final_damage = (167 - 61 * (1 - 0))
* (1 + 0.105) = 117.13 damage

Conclusion: 10.5% ATT is slightly better than 18% AP at 61 Armor

Case #3 - 62 Armor
For easier reading, I simplified the formula by removing unused values

0% AP, 0% ATT
final_damage = (167 - 62 * (1 - 0))
* (1 + attack_bonus) = 105 damage

18% AP, 0% ATT
final_damage = (167 - 62 * (1 - 0.18))
* (1 + attack_bonus) = 116.16 damage

0% AP, 10.5% ATT
final_damage = (167 - 62 * (1 - 0))
* (1 + 0.105) = 116.025 damage

Conclusion: 18% AP is slightly better than 10.5% ATT at 62 Armor

Case #4 - 99 Armor (Nightmare dragon)
For easier reading, I simplified the formula by removing unused values

0% AP, 0% ATT
final_damage = (167 - 99 * (1 - 0))
* (1 + attack_bonus) = 68 damage

18% AP, 0% ATT
final_damage = (167 - 99 * (1 - 0.18))
* (1 + attack_bonus) = 85.82 damage

0% AP, 10.5% ATT
final_damage = (167 - 99 * (1 - 0))
* (1 + 0.105) = 75.14 damage

Conclusion: 18% AP is much better than 10.5% ATT at 99 Armor

Conclusion
With those results, I conclude 62 armor is where 18% Armor Penetration becomes better than 10.5% Attack.

From that conclusion, 2 questions arise:
1- Did I made a mistake while calculating that?
2- How many enemies have 62+ armor? (is there any spreadsheet with those values like there was in ME3?)

Edit #2: My second attempt at finding out

Spoiler

*** Edit #2 ***
Following the advice from this thread, I now understand that my first calculation of 62+ armor was a bit high. You really need to know how much Attack you have before you can calculate the right result.

In my case, I have 40% Attack before the extra 10.5%. That 40% Attack benefits a lot Armor Penetration because it lower the value from 62+ armor to 40+ armor. A considerable amount and this makes Armor Penetration a no brainer for Perilous. I would stay clear of it on Routine and Threatening though...

Modifié par TheThirdRace, 16 juillet 2015 - 09:28 .

[Luke Barrett]

This is true, but without any indication on how much Armor enemies have, it can become a very moot point.

 

If you're in Fade Mode you can see enemy Armor Ratings when you inspect them.