61 réponses à ce sujet

[Spectr61]

Extremely well done all.

Thank you to all who crunched numbers.

I know it's not complete, but my knowledge is now on a higher level.

Thanks.

[yarpenthemad21]

How much effective "uptime" does ArP have in NM? As in what's the ratio of monsters with 62+ armor to ones without?

Very high. From what I've got on Red templar and even demons pretty much from zone 2+ almost every unit.
Spawns are quite different than those on perilous, he have way more units like rage demon, pride demon, knight, horror, shadow etc and all of them got 60+ armor (even 70+)

[TheThirdRace]

Updated original post to include the current results and do some cleaning.

[konfeta]

So, if I understand this correctly, Avar War Maul (31% armor pen) vs Dragon Maul (18% attack)... Let's plug in an 100 armor enemy and say 40% attack on other sources....

 

(329 * 1 - 100 * (1 - 0.31)) * 1.40 = 364

(329 * 1 - 100) * 1.58 = 361

 

The War Maul's armor pen doesn't really make a substantial difference. Meh.

[TheThirdRace]

So, if I understand this correctly, Avar War Maul (31% armor pen) vs Dragon Maul (18% attack)... Let's plug in an 100 armor enemy and say 40% attack on other sources....
 
(329 * 1 - 100 * (1 - 0.31)) * 1.40 = 364
(329 * 1 - 100) * 1.58 = 361
 
The War Maul's armor pen doesn't really make a substantial difference. Meh.

Exactly.

Armor Penetration is most useful on "low" damage weapons like daggers and to a lesser extent 1 handed weapons. The higher the base damage of the weapon, the lower Armor Penetration will make a difference. What could be a 40 Armor tipping point for daggers can easily become a 80 Armor for a Greatsword.

It's also important to remember that even if the difference between Armor Penetration and Attack is small in your case, that difference is multiplied my ability modifiers, critical damage, flanking damage, bonus attack%, etc. Thus, even a small 3 damage is better than "just" 3 damage because it is multiplied a number of times before the end result.

Although, in your case it's a bit pointless as most of Avvar's abilties are Elemental damage so Armor Penetration doesn't apply at all.

[konfeta]

Hm, so I tried comparing 20% attack vs 36% armor penetration on my daggers in practice. Only have ~20% attack from items/promotes/passives.

 

Isabella - 20% attack was better in perilous against low armor targets, and reasonably equal to armor pen against medium+ targets.

               20% attack was worse in nightmare by a substantial margin against any enemies with armor.

 

So that made sense. Isabella has no penetration/sunder available.

 

Then, I tried lady silent dwarf... and does the armor breaker passive stack with itself or something? I thought only different sources of sunder stacked? With armor penetration upgrades, my hidden blades capped out at 1.6k-1.7k crits. With 20% attack, they started off slightly below that, and rapidly climbed up to ~2k+ crits, i.e. my current limit against 0 armor targets.

 

If my observations are not screwed up, that means on SS, armor pen is far weaker than anticipated since she floods the target with crits. Assassin has absurd amount of penetration, so that should be self evident there as well - % attack wins. Armor penetration upgrade only seems to benefit Isabella then, who has no natural source of sunder or penetration (and since you can only have 1 Hakkon dagger, swapping upgrades could get expensive fast if you swap between the two rogues regularly.)

 

Anyone else with low willpower promotions tried labbing armor penetration upgrades vs. % attack upgrades on the SS?

 

Alright. Shield Breaker stacks with itself and effectively strips enemy armor to 0. My attacks on the Silent Sister ramp up to the exact same numbers on a Nightmare dragon as if they were hitting a wraith.

 

TLDR, unless you adore Isabella to the exclusion of all other shank ladies, armor penetration on daggers is a colossal waste of time. I presume Archer/Hunter/Assassin' Cheap Shot also self-stacks that way.

 

incidentally and completely unrelated, could Isabella get cheapshot biovar plz

[Orleone]

 

Alright. Shield Breaker stacks with itself and effectively strips enemy armor to 0. My attacks on the Silent Sister ramp up to the exact same numbers on a Nightmare dragon as if they were hitting a wraith.

 

Thanks for testing, been wondering.

[Drasca]

Alright. Shield Breaker stacks with itself and effectively strips enemy armor to 0. My attacks on the Silent Sister ramp up to the exact same numbers on a Nightmare dragon as if they were hitting a wraith.

 

This is good news, but the interpretation is not necessarily correct because that only fully benefits enemies to 5+ hits. If you kill enemies before the 5th hit, there's more benefit to inherent AP from frontloaded damage.

 

The damage optimization calculation just got more complex and interesting.

[Pork]

Alright. Shield Breaker stacks with itself and effectively strips enemy armor to 0. My attacks on the Silent Sister ramp up to the exact same numbers on a Nightmare dragon as if they were hitting a wraith.

 

TLDR, unless you adore Isabella to the exclusion of all other shank ladies, armor penetration on daggers is a colossal waste of time. I presume Archer/Hunter/Assassin' Cheap Shot also self-stacks that way.

 

incidentally and completely unrelated, could Isabella get cheapshot biovar plz

 

I was my understanding that armor reduction is capped to 80%. Thus meaning that no enemy can have 0 armor unless it already has it by design (dispair demons for example)

[BIGGLESBY]

If penetrate, then yes.

[SkillSpray]

You also have to keep in mind that it's easier to get armor pen compared to attack.

Everite (t3 attack metal) gives 1.75% attack each.

Dawnstone gives 3% armor pen each.

 

when compared 1:1, armor pen vs attack, the difference is not that impressive. But for the same upgrade slot, you get almost 1.7x more armor pen.

[konfeta]

This is good news, but the interpretation is not necessarily correct because that only fully benefits enemies to 5+ hits. If you kill enemies before the 5th hit, there's more benefit to inherent AP from frontloaded damage.

 

The damage optimization calculation just got more complex and interesting.

Jesus how much damage do you do to kill enemies with daggers before 5 hits? But, yeah, I imagine if one was a parry spammer vs. metal shield turtle packs, armor penetration would still be better. Though, on my end, I found I lost overall killing speed when I switched to armor penetration grips (which is what prompted me to look at this in the first place.)

 

Another interesting moment, is which is the better rotation for Silent Sister - opening with Hidden Blade can massively cut down on its damage, but you cast a second Hidden blades faster since you use other spells/attacks to reset it. I am thinking a compromise of opening with with either Spinning Blades or Throwing blades, then toss Hidden Blades, and then start alternating is probably the best results overall. This also makes another argument for Spinning Blades as one of the better SS skills because you can remove a group's armor for your other physical damage dealers.

 

Assassin wise, it becomes a question of what exactly is the order of operations and stacking for sunder effects/penetration effects. Does the crit that sundered the armor benefit from the armor reduction it caused? Does armor penetration stack with sunder additively (i.e. is 20% sunder and 50% armor penetration = 70% total armor bypassed or 60% armor bypassed)? Since armor reduction is less valuable per point the closer you get to 0 armor, penetration grips might be weak even for high will power people.

 

 

 

I was my understanding that armor reduction is capped to 80%. Thus meaning that no enemy can have 0 armor unless it already has it by design (dispair demons for example)

I'd have to be in fade and stare at the armor values of a silent sister's target to confirm that (the armor number updates in real time to sunder effects IIRC), but I am getting roughly the the same (2.1k-2.2k) crits across the board. Even then, unless armor penetration is additive with sunder relative to the original, that 36% penetration from weapons would be reducing what, 20 armor to about 13 on a night mare dragon? Meh. Though if it was additive, I suppose going from let's say 149 to 169 base damage due to penetrating last bit of armor is an 13% increase in damage, which would be become better than 21% attack for folks with ton of willpower promotes.