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[Queen Skadi]

Welp, close the thread. Someone invoked the Nazis, we're done. I will also avoid the requisite fedora tipping joke these arguments tend to lead to. Or I'll try, at least.

 

The problem with this is in fact, history. Hitler was a Roman Catholic, but he fell out of it after a while. He kind of flip-flops as politicians are wont to do, but he did distance himself a lot and began to push more atheistic views after he rose to power and didn't need to worry about the power of the churches. It's a complicated thing - as real people are - and it isn't easy to boil it down like that.

 

The big problem with that assertion is there is only one view that constitutes as an Atheist view, and that is the belief that there is no god. I would assume when you say that you are talking about the whole "survival of the fittest" and eugenics thing but these aren't meant to be philosophies that are meant to dictate the Atheist way of life and how we should conduct our selves and what we should aspire for, the theory of evolution is merely meant to be an understanding of the origin of the species, while the information can be used to further the goal of eugenics eugenics is in no way shape or form an atheist principle or philosophy nor does Hitler's belief in these philosophies make him any less of a catholic, not sure where it says in the bible "thou shalt not couple with the fellowship of those with familiar qualities and selectively breed common traits". There is nothing I can see that suggests that Hitler fell out of the Catholic church other than 3rd hand reports from "historians" with an obvious religious bias. To this day Hitler still has not been excommunicated.

 

As far as I can tell Hitler believed his campaign against the Jews was his duty as a faithful servant of the catholic church and there are even muddied reports that Nazi Germany had the support of the Catholic church with some even going so far as to say that the Catholic Church even provided escape routes for prominent members of the Nazi party during the fall of Nazi Germany. While it is hard to know if these rumors are true or false it still does not change the fact that the Catholic Church did not do anything to oppose the Nazi regime either as much as they would like to try to claim otherwise.

[Corto81]

 

 

The Church, as you said, funded universities; indeed, often it recognized estalished centers of learning and funded them a lot (Université de Paris being a prime example). This set the stage for the academic culture that persists to this day, Western universities easily ranking among the very best in the world and producing many of the greatest minds humanity ever had.

 

And to you, this is not promoting science and advancement?

 

Nor is the fact that Catholic monks enabled ancient Greek and Roman texts to survive to the present day by copying and studying them in a day and age where no one else gave a toss about what Plato wrote a thousand years ago?

 

Or how several prominent Catholic figures went on to become influencial theologian, jurists or philosophers, like Aquinas and Isidore de Séville?

 

Sorry, but you seem to be just as dogmatic as the religions you denounce. There is no way anyone who is informed about the period thinks that the Church was this bastion of obscurantism and mental servitude that you depict.

 

I am not sure why you think there's a link between funding universities and encouraging science and development.

Scholars and scholarly work, yes. But only if it fitted into their standards of thinking and reasoning. Anything else was discouraged, fought, burned.

From medicine to astronomy, from geography and geology, etc.

 

Now, Aquinas...

Summa Theologica was, by all accounts, an honest attempt at combining philosophy and theology.

After a thousand years of scientific and philosophical darkness, Aquinas's work was part of the reason people started to think and read etc.

In short, he was a great man.

 

However, Aquinas was shackled in Church dogmas and scientific darkness. His work was heavily influenced, in the end, by the fact that he was unwilling to move away from the scripture.

As for his medicine, it was pseudo-medicine, at best. He didn't know or recognize women egg cells. He simply viewed women as holding bodies or some kind of repository for babies (and only the sperm was needed for pregnancy).

He also had the idea of Natual Law, his idea of how the human body should function sexually (only hetero and only in the missionary position).

Everyone not living their sex lives by these rules went straight to hell, according to him. And all of this was accepted by the church.

 

My point is, philosophy and scholarly work was encouraged, and yes, even funded, by the church.

But never when it went against their teachings, doctrines and dogmas.

Not until the Age of Enlightenment and the 17th century can we say that science was free form the shackles of the church - not because the church saw reason,but because reason and analysis and free thinking coming to fore in Europe meant less power for institutions like the Catholic church.

Science, scepticism, free thinking and toleration were finally coming to be mainstream.

From Spinoza to Kant, Descartes to Locke, free thinking and ethics were discussed, and basically at the same time, Newton led the scientific revolution.

I am very much informed about this period and the church's role in it, or basically any other period, to be honest.

You wanting it to not be so - church being the institution that it was - doesn't make it so, nor does it make me ignorant or uninformed just because you don't like what I say.

[Elhanan]

DAI still has a well written depiction of their fictional religion, as it depicts both good and bad; is not revised or redacted to fit a particular ideology. Hope TW3 can say the same.

[Queen Skadi]

DAI still has a well written depiction of their fictional religion, as it depicts both good and bad; is not revised or redacted to fit a particular ideology.

 

The Chantry is a factional religion and thus an ideology in and of itself so the writers can do whatever the hell they like with it and the writers chose to go with a more ultimately noble organization the sometimes uses harsh methods and employs the occasional bad apple to accomplish it's ultimately more noble goals, which is fine I guess but just because something is grey does not mean it is objectively better. The Witcher's depiction of religion is that it is more of a tool used to subjugate and control the masses by manufacturing fear of the unknown in order to drive people into the arms of the church in return for the promise of protection.

 

The Lore on the Chantry is probably a bit more extensive and nuanced than that of the Eternal Flame but the Eternal Flame is really more of a critical examination of the true essence of religion and how and why it is used.

[Elhanan]

The Chantry is a factional religion and thus an ideology in and of itself so the writers can do whatever the hell they like with it and the writers chose to go with a more ultimately noble organization the sometimes uses harsh methods and employs the occasional bad apple to accomplish it's ultimately more noble goals, which is fine I guess but just because something is grey does not mean it is objectively better. The Witcher's depiction of religion is that it is more of a tool used to subjugate the masses by manufacturing fear of the unknown in order to drive people into the arms of the church in return for the promise of protection.
 
The Lore on the Chantry is probably a bit more extensive and nuanced than that of the Eternal Flame but the Eternal Flame is really more of a critical examination of the true essence of religion and how and why it is used.

In your mind, it probably does. However, I prefer reality on this side of the screen.

[Queen Skadi]

In your mind, it probably does. However, I prefer reality on this side of the screen.

 

Honey if you think the church is an altruistic organization only looking out for the well being of mankind then I am afraid you are the one with the warped view of reality.

[Elhanan]

Sounds like some on the forums would make fine persecutors. Get themselves some robes, some cowls, a logo, and a meme (eg; "She turned me into a newt!") and they would be all set to enforce their mindsets on the rest of humanity. To become members, simply ignore the history they do not prefer, much like green vegetables at a cafeteria. Then they redact and remove the offensive facts from the texts, so nobody corrupts them and their children. My condolences to the kids btw....

Ironically, they eventually become the same stereotypes they craft as their victims. Perhaps they even make a sport of it all; too bad the Roman Coliseum is no longer available....

The mind is a terrible thing to waste.

[X Equestris]

The big problem with that assertion is there is only one view that constitutes as an Atheist view, and that is the belief that there is no god. I would assume when you say that you are talking about the whole "survival of the fittest" and eugenics thing but these aren't meant to be philosophies that are meant to dictate the Atheist way of life and how we should conduct our selves and what we should aspire for, the theory of evolution is merely meant to be an understanding of the origin of the species, while the information can be used to further the goal of eugenics eugenics is in no way shape or form an atheist principle or philosophy nor does Hitler's belief in these philosophies make him any less of a catholic, not sure where it says in the bible "thou shalt not couple with the fellowship of those with familiar qualities and selectively breed common traits". There is nothing I can see that suggests that Hitler fell out of the Catholic church other than 3rd hand reports from "historians" with an obvious religious bias. To this day Hitler still has not been excommunicated.
 
As far as I can tell Hitler believed his campaign against the Jews was his duty as a faithful servant of the catholic church and there are even muddied reports that Nazi Germany had the support of the Catholic church with some even going so far as to say that the Catholic Church even provided escape routes for prominent members of the Nazi party during the fall of Nazi Germany. While it is hard to know if these rumors are true or false it still does not change the fact that the Catholic Church did not do anything to oppose the Nazi regime either as much as they would like to try to claim otherwise.

https://en.m.wikiped...of_Adolf_Hitler

[Corto81]

https://en.m.wikiped...of_Adolf_Hitler

 

...

 

Hitler's own beliefs are neither confirmed, nor relevant. Whether he was catholic, atheist or had reportedly northern pagan beliefs, matters little.

(mind you, in Mein Kampf Hitler says his work against the Jews is directed to him by the almighty God)

 

What is important is that Catholic doctrine was to accuse the Jews collectively of deicide, and it was official and valid all the way up to 1964,

giving a massive pool of anti-Jewish hatred to any and all who wanted to use it for fascist purposes all over Europe.

What is important that the Church went out of its way to cater to these fascist leaders, making their first political contract with Hitler (exchanging control over education for dissolving their party and giving Hitler less competition in the elections, basically clearing the way for the Nazi party to win), making a contract with Mussolini, celebrating Hitler's birthday, etc.

I mean, the church even had a priest at the had of one of the Nazi puppet states in Slovakia (father Tiso).

[X Equestris]

...
 
Hitler's own beliefs are neither confirmed, nor relevant. Whether he was catholic, atheist or had reportedly northern pagan beliefs, matters little.
(mind you, in Mein Kampf Hitler says his work against the Jews is directed to him by the almighty God)
 
What is important is that Catholic doctrine was to accuse the Jews collectively of deicide, and it was official and valid all the way up to 1964,
giving a massive pool of anti-Jewish hatred to any and all who wanted to use it for fascist purposes all over Europe.
What is important that the Church went out of its way to cater to these fascist leaders, making their first political contract with Hitler (exchanging control over education for dissolving their party and giving Hitler less competition in the elections, basically clearing the way for the Nazi party to win), making a contract with Mussolini, celebrating Hitler's birthday, etc.
I mean, the church even had a priest at the had of one of the Nazi puppet states in Slovakia (father Tiso).

Hitler was not, in any meaningful way, a Catholic or a Christian. It is that claim by Skadi that I'm refuting. Nothing more.

[Elhanan]

Here is a composed list found on a search that might be of interest:

http://listverse.com...-world-war-two/

[Heimdall]

Honey if you think the church is an altruistic organization only looking out for the well being of mankind then I am afraid you are the one with the warped view of reality.

If you really think religion exists purely to control the masses then you don't have a very nuanced understanding of it. Organized religion can be abused to that purpose like many institutions but that's not why it exists.

[Queen Skadi]

Hitler was not, in any meaningful way, a Catholic or a Christian. It is that claim by Skadi that I'm refuting. Nothing more.

 

You do know anyone can edit a wikipedia page right? The problem I have with these sources that state Hitler was not a christian or a catholic is that they are all 3rd hand based on rumour and gossip from historians with an obvious religious bias, they are all claims with no solid foundation to back them up born pretty much out of the desire whitewash history and deny the christian influences in the Nazi regime. It all looks especially pathetic considering how much actual evidence there is to suggest Hitler was indeed a Catholic from quotes straight from the horses mouth publicly acknowledging his faith to the amount of religious influences in Nazi symbolism including belt buckles that say "god is on our side". To this day the only Nazi to ever be excommunicated by the Catholic Church is Joseph Goebbels, apparently the Catholic church deems marying protestants are far bigger crime than genocide. 

 

I am sorry Equestris, you may not like the fact that your religion was associated with some pretty nasty people who did some pretty nasty things but you can't change the facts, with how hard the Catholic Church is trying to skew history and hide their involvement in the Nazi regime it does raise the question of how much of the history as it was written by the Catholic Church is actually true? If the Church truly cared about "preserving history and sharing knowledge" as many of you have claimed you think they would be more up front about things, but instead it seems they are more interested in censoring information in order to maintain an image of being a morally rich institution instead of actually BEING a morally rich institution.

[X Equestris]

You do know anyone can edit a wikipedia page right? The problem I have with these sources that state Hitler was not a christian or a catholic is that they are all 3rd hand based on rumour and gossip from historians with an obvious religious bias, they are all claims with no solid foundation to back them up born pretty much out of the desire whitewash history and deny the christian influences in the Nazi regime. It all looks especially pathetic considering how much actual evidence there is to suggest Hitler was indeed a Catholic from quotes straight from the horses mouth publicly acknowledging his faith to the amount of religious influences in Nazi symbolism including belt buckles that say "god is on our side". To this day the only Nazi to ever be excommunicated by the Catholic Church is Joseph Goebbels, apparently the Catholic church deems marying protestants are far bigger crime than genocide. 
 
I am sorry Equestris, you may not like the fact that your religion was associated with some pretty nasty people who did some pretty nasty things but you can't change the facts, with how hard the Catholic Church is trying to skew history and hide their involvement in the Nazi regime it does raise the question of how much of the history as it was written by the Catholic Church is actually true? If the Church truly cared about "preserving history and sharing knowledge" as many of you have claimed you think they would be more up front about things, but instead it seems they are more interested in censoring information in order to maintain an image of being a morally rich institution instead of actually BEING a morally rich institution.

Both Speer and Goebbels stated that Hitler detested Protestant Christianity and the Catholic Church as being too weak and meek. Hitler himself stated such things in private. The Nazi promoted Positive Christianity, intended to replace the Protestant Churches in Germany, denied Jesus was the son of God; in other words the thing that all Christian denominations are based on. Hitler respected the Catholic Church only because it had what he called "tradition". He loathed its teachings. You can look at all of those sources in that article, and I'm sure you'll find ones you can consider acceptable. Or maybe not. Maybe your personal biases, which are evident on a number of issues throughout this thread, blind you to the truth.

[Queen Skadi]

If you really think religion exists purely to control the masses then you don't have a very nuanced understanding of it. Organized religion can be abused to that purpose like many institutions but that's not why it exists.

 

Enlighten me then, why does religion exist? Is it because of man's desire to be assimilated in structures of higher order and meaning? I suppose you could argue that it was designed to teach good moral values and philosophical life lessons but I can't honestly say many of the teachings in the bible are actually very moral and most of the teachings seem to instill the notion of obedience to an omnipotent deity who will punish you severely for any transgressions against the laws they hold sacred.

 

Being a tool used to control the behavior of your subjects through fear of eternal damnation and the promise of eternal bliss does seem to be the Judeo/Christian faith's major function.

[Queen Skadi]

Both Speer and Goebbels stated that Hitler detested Protestant Christianity and the Catholic Church as being too weak and meek. Hitler himself stated such things in private. The Nazi promoted Positive Christianity, intended to replace the Protestant Churches in Germany, denied Jesus was the son of God; in other words the thing that all Christian denominations are based on. Hitler respected the Catholic Church only because it had what he called "tradition". He loathed its teachings. You can look at all of those sources in that article, and I'm sure you'll find ones you can consider acceptable. Or maybe not. Maybe your personal biases, which are evident on a number of issues throughout this thread, blind you to the truth.

 

Yeah but Goebbels was a filthy protestant lover so who can trust a word he says? Guy was even excommunicated so obviously he was deemed worse than Hitler! Also having a hard time finding any sources that claim that Nazi Germany denied the divinity of Jesus, the best I can find is that the Nazi's were responsible for that blonde phase Jesus went through, there are also quotes from Hitler saying how he looks to his "lord and savior" as a fighter, kind of like the time he beat up all the Greek gods.

 

[X Equestris]

Yeah but Goebbels was a filthy protestant lover so who can trust a word he says? Guy was even excommunicated so obviously he was deemed worse than Hitler! Also having a hard time finding any sources that claim that Nazi Germany denied the divinity of Jesus, the best I can find is that the Nazi's were responsible for that blonde phase Jesus went through, there are also quotes from Hitler saying how he looks to his "lord and savior" as a fighter, kind of like the time he beat up all the Greek gods.
 

Hanns Kerrl, Minister for Church Affairs, stated that the Nazi conception of Positive Christianity didn't depend on the Apostles' Creed or on belief in Christ as the son of God.

[Queen Skadi]

Hanns Kerrl, Minister for Church Affairs, stated that the Nazi conception of Positive Christianity didn't depend on the Apostles' Creed or on belief in Christ as the son of God.

 

This proves what exactly? I am not exactly sure what this is supposed to mean? That even if people doubted the divinity of Christ his teachings were still relevant and were to be adhered to?

[X Equestris]

This proves what exactly? I am not exactly sure what this is supposed to mean? That even if people doubted the divinity of Christ his teachings were still relevant and were to be adhered to?

It means that Positive Christianity didn't accept those basic things, things that are the foundation of Christianity itself, as fact. It cannot meaningfully be called Christian, just as a group that didn't believe in Mohammed as a prophet couldn't be called Islamic. If Hitler was an actual, believing Catholic he wouldn't have supported such measures. The ultimate aim, stated by every member of the Nazi hierarchy, of Positive Christianity was to put all of Germany's churches, Protestant or Catholic, under the direct control of the Nazi government. Those Protestant churches who stood against this movement were actively persecuted, and some of their clergy were placed in concentration camps. Hitler persuaded the more actively anti-church members of the Party, like Bormann, to be patient and wait to move directly against the Catholic Church until later because it was more unified and wielded considerable influence.

[X Equestris]

Now, we can move any serious talk about religion to another forum (if it's even allowed, most forums consider it a tabu topic as it riles up emotions),
but my entire point was that CDPR portrayed their Church of Eternal FIre like the Catholic Church of medieval Europe, and that it suited the grim and "real" world of slavic-based Witcher universe.

I'd hardly say that a one-dimensional caricature suits a world that prides itself on gray and gray morality.

[agonis]

*enters thread*

 

*sees Hitler mentioned*

 

*leaves*

[Heimdall]

Enlighten me then, why does religion exist? Is it because of man's desire to be assimilated in structures of higher order and meaning? I suppose you could argue that it was designed to teach good moral values and philosophical life lessons but I can't honestly say many of the teachings in the bible are actually very moral and most of the teachings seem to instill the notion of obedience to an omnipotent deity who will punish you severely for any transgressions against the laws they hold sacred.
 
Being a tool used to control the behavior of your subjects through fear of eternal damnation and the promise of eternal bliss does seem to be the Judeo/Christian faith's major function.

Religion's purpose is social, building a sense of community and commonality around a set of values and beliefs. Some religions place great authority in leadership figures, in which case your idea of it being a control mechanism would be arguable but not all religions do. Take the Quakers for instance, they have no clergy at all, preferring silent meeting in which any member of the community may stand and speak their mind. That's the purpose of religion, community and giving context to human existence. That religions can be abused from the top down or used to support terrible acts does not change that nor make them any different from any other form of ideology.

As to the Bible, in my experience it can be read selectively to support any point or cause imaginable. Religions change with the times and so do their interpretations and emphasis of biblical verses. My church used it to teach us about generosity, compassion, and forgiveness.

[Queen Skadi]

It means that Positive Christianity didn't accept those basic things, things that are the foundation of Christianity itself, as fact. It cannot meaningfully be called Christian, just as a group that didn't believe in Mohammed as a prophet couldn't be called Islamic.

 

Not requiring and not accepting are 2 entirely different things, if anything it would seem Hitler was a firm believer in christ

 

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter.  It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth!  was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.  In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders.  How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison.  To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross.  As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice…  And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."

 

These do not seem like the words of somebody who denied the existence of Christ, while it is true they did try to play down his Jewish origins and turn him into an Aryan it in no way suggests that they denied the existence of Jesus, I think you might be misinterpreting quotes to suit your own agenda, you also seem to be relying far too much on heresay and 3rd and even 4th hand accounts when there is far more credible information that suggests the contrary.

[Corto81]

I'd hardly say that a one-dimensional caricature suits a world that prides itself on gray and gray morality.

 

In the medieval ages? Again, the odd individual good priest was there. Actually, I'm sure there were many. They just had no influence on the institution of the church.

But the church's doctrines brought about the crusades, inquisition, witch hunts, forced conversions and pogroms, extermination of races and nations,  etc.

 

I see nothing gray about that. I just see millions and millions of dead people and hundred of thousands tortured.

 

Some things just simply aren't gray.

 

...

 

To be clear, I don't equate faith with institutionalized religion.

Faith can be a wonderful thing, and yes, can bring about compassion, solace, forgivness.

Institutionalized religion, even today, even from the most modern churches, teaches things like homosexuality is a "moral evil" (the words of Benedict XVI), fights contraception in any form, a huge number of christian authorities still persist on the ridiculous notion of creatonism, etc.

 

Now multiply that by the ignorance and hatred and the common-placed violence in which the church operated in the medieval ages, and you have the medieval Catholic Church.

[Queen Skadi]

Religion's purpose is social, building a sense of community and commonality around a set of values and beliefs. Some religions place great authority in leadership figures, in which case your idea of it being a control mechanism would be arguable but not all religions do. Take the Quakers for instance, they have no clergy at all, preferring silent meeting in which any member of the community may stand and speak their mind. That's the purpose of religion, community and giving context to human existence. That religions can be abused from the top down or used to support terrible acts does not change that nor make them any different from any other form of ideology.

As to the Bible, in my experience it can be read selectively to support any point or cause imaginable. Religions change with the times and so do their interpretations and emphasis of biblical verses. My church used it to teach us about generosity, compassion, and forgiveness.

 

You can do this without religion, a community does not require religion to exist but a common goal that can be as simple as mere survival, religion for the most part seems like more of a method of establishing some form of control over that community, to give incentive for behavior deemed morally good and provide disincentive for behavior deemed immoral in the absence of a proper criminal justice system.