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[Elhanan]

Half the problem of using the Torah and the Hebrew Bible in general is that it's only half the text. There's also the Oral Torah, which is just as sacred and makes a lot of modification to the written Torah. And then there's the rabbinical commentaries... There's a reason Judaism tends to be a very literate religion.

The laws of the Torah were designed to transform a bunch of semi nomadic tribes into a more settled civilization, but a BRONZE AGE civilization.

Just wanted to add this in, Elhanan, otherwise I agree with you.

If I recall correctly, Hebrew is the only language to have died and then returned due to the oral traditions. And it was the Masoretes (?) that helped insure the accuracy and preservation of the scriptures of that age.

[Sylvius the Mad]

People need to remember that the statements of public figures are often intended to persuade or deceive rather than convey truth.

[Ariella]

If I recall correctly, Hebrew is the only language to have died and then returned due to the oral traditions. And it was the Masoretes (?) that helped insure the accuracy and preservation of the scriptures of that age.

I don't know about the latter, but the former is pretty true. And Hebrew has two 'daughter' languages in Yiddish and Ladino. The former is a mix of Hebrew, Aramaic (sp?) and German. The latter is Spanish influence.

But going back to the whole 'religion is evil' thing. Religion is a concept, and like any it can be abused. Human beings have this amazing ability to screw up anything, no matter how seemingly foolproof it is.

Inquisition does a good job of showing this in its presentation of the Chantry.

[Queen Skadi]

So am I, and most religious people I've met are quite tolerant. Let's not pretend secular ideologies haven't fueled their share of atrocities though...

 

Depends how you define secular, I am pretty sure I know what your argument will be but I am pretty sure it is based on a warped view of what secularism is, but that is a discussion for another time.

[Heimdall]

Depends how you define secular, I am pretty sure I know what your argument will be but I am pretty sure it is based on a warped view of what secularism is, but that is a discussion for another time.

SECULAR
denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.

If that's not the definition your using, then you're the one with a warped definition, I don't doubt you've twisted it around to define any ideology you find objectionable to be religiously based.

[Elhanan]

SECULAR
denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.

If that's not the definition your using, then you're the one with a warped definition, I don't doubt you've twisted it around to define any ideology you find objectionable to be religiously based.

Take these definitions with salt; also believed themselves to be tolerant....

[Queen Skadi]

SECULAR
denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.

If that's not the definition your using, then you're the one with a warped definition, I don't doubt you've twisted it around to define any ideology you find objectionable to be religiously based.

 

The problem is however believing these atrocities were caused by a lack of religion though, in a world without religion good people do good things and bad people do bad things, some ideologies are good and some are bad but the problem does not stem from their secular nature.

[Elhanan]

Seem to recall a few problems stemming from a non-religious nature: greed, racism, slavery, murder, rape, jealousy, and those that believe DAI has none of these. Not saying that religious folks are not open to such evils, but am saying that all mankind fall prey to these poor choices.
 

[Queen Skadi]

Seem to recall a few problems stemming from a non-religious nature: greed, racism, slavery, murder, rape, jealousy, and those that believe DAI has none of these. Not saying that religious folks are not open to such evils, but am saying that all mankind fall prey to these poor choices.
 

 

You do know the bible openly condones rape and slavery right? It has also been used to justify racism and it kind of contradicts itself on the subject of murder condoning murder in certain circumstances despite initially forbidding it. Of course I am sure you would tell me that the literal translation of these passages is wrong and that I have somehow misinterpreted them because the Bible is written in some special code that makes it look to the untrained eye to be condoning heinous acts.

 

Yes all of mankind is capable of these actions whether they are religious or not however a lack of religion is not the cause of these actions. People don't do these things because they lack religion, they do these things because they are assholes.

[Elhanan]

No; the Bible speaks about rape and slavery, and may have been used to condone them, but it does not do so.

And you forget that a 'church' is made of sinners; hence the meaning assembly.

[X Equestris]

You do know the bible openly condones rape and slavery right? It has also been used to justify racism and it kind of contradicts itself on the subject of murder condoning murder in certain circumstances despite initially forbidding it. Of course I am sure you would tell me that the literal translation of these passages is wrong and that I have somehow misinterpreted them because the Bible is written in some special code that makes it look to the untrained eye to be condoning heinous acts.
 
Yes all of mankind is capable of these actions whether they are religious or not however a lack of religion is not the cause of these actions. People don't do these things because they lack religion, they do these things because they are assholes.

Rape is condemned, and under Old Testament law could result in execution. As for slavery, virtually all societies held slaves. The Bible itself provides guidelines for the treatment of slaves, because slavery was so prolific at the time. In fact, parts of it also encourage emancipation of slaves. Anything can be used to justify anything, but it doesn't mean it actually supports it. As far as murder, let us note that there is a distinction drawn between murder and killing. Self-defense, for example, isn't considered murder.

There are cases, on a large scale or a small one, where religions or religious people were attacked by atheists explicitly because said targets weren't atheist. This is not a reflection on all atheists, just as an act committed by one religious person doesn't reflect on all others. But one must recognize that all ideologies can cause fanatical behavior in humans.

I said it earlier, but in the interests of steering the discussion back towards the original topic, I'll say it again: to me, DAI handles this particular issue with more nuance than TW3.

[Heimdall]

Yes all of mankind is capable of these actions whether they are religious or not however a lack of religion is not the cause of these actions. People don't do these things because they lack religion, they do these things because they are assholes.

You seem to be shifting the goal post.

[Elhanan]

You seem to be shifting the goal post.

Believe this thread is not goal oriented; more based on penalties like a bad hockey match.

[Ariella]

Rape is condemned, and under Old Testament law could result in execution. As for slavery, virtually all societies held slaves. The Bible itself provides guidelines for the treatment of slaves, because slavery was so prolific at the time. In fact, parts of it also encourage emancipation of slaves. Anything can be used to justify anything, but it doesn't mean it actually supports it. As far as murder, let us note that there is a distinction drawn between murder and killing. Self-defense, for example, isn't considered murder.

In fact it is considered a mitzvah (commandment) to redeem the slave, since the Hebrews were once slaves in Egypt. And by redeem, Skadi, I mean, physical not spiritual redemption, as in freeing them.

Do people do bad things in the Bible, yes they do, Skadi. It is a book about people after all, and people, as I've said before, are very very good at screwing things up. But it also sets up basic concepts of right and wrong, good and evil, and the people who take evil actions are identified as doing so.

Dragon Age does a wonderful job presenting this in a mature way that's respectful to both points of view. Unless one happens to be looking for a bone to pick.

[Elhanan]

In fact it is considered a mitzvah (commandment) to redeem the slave, since the Hebrews were once slaves in Egypt. And by redeem, Skadi, I mean, physical not spiritual redemption, as in freeing them.

Do people do bad things in the Bible, yes they do, Skadi. It is a book about people after all, and people, as I've said before, are very very good at screwing things up. But it also sets up basic concepts of right and wrong, good and evil, and the people who take evil actions are identified as doing so.

Dragon Age does a wonderful job presenting this in a mature way that's respectful to both points of view. Unless one happens to be looking for a bone to pick.

And if I recall correctly, Amos and possibly other prophets condemned slavery as charges against the other nations that were being condemned.

So yeah; slavery not a good thing.

[Queen Skadi]

Rape is condemned, and under Old Testament law could result in execution. As for slavery, virtually all societies held slaves. The Bible itself provides guidelines for the treatment of slaves, because slavery was so prolific at the time. In fact, parts of it also encourage emancipation of slaves. Anything can be used to justify anything, but it doesn't mean it actually supports it. As far as murder, let us note that there is a distinction drawn between murder and killing. Self-defense, for example, isn't considered murder.

 

Actually I believe the punishment for rape is that the rapist has to pay a dowry of 50 silver to the father and marry her while whoever got raped is forced to marry the rapist

 

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

 

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

 

Pretty sure the punishment here is harsher on the person who got raped against their will than the actual rapist themselves, but this rule it seems only applies to women in your own tribe, raping and taking sex slaves is fair game.

 

Judges 21:10-24

 

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children.  "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin."  Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

 

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives.  But there were not enough women for all of them.  The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel.  So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead?  There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever.  But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

 

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem.  They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards.  When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife!  And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding.  Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'"  So the men of Benjamin did as they were told.  They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance.  Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them.  So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

 

Yeah the tribe of Benjamin, not enough sex slaves to go around so they had to kidnap drunk girls from some festival, not sure the tribe of Benjamin is who I should be feeling sympathy for.

 

As for guidelines for treating slaves what are we talking about here? The passage that says if you hit your slave so hard they die within 2 days you get a slap on the wrists but if they don't die you can hit them as hard as you like because they are your property? I know there are passages that say if you buy a Hebrew slave they can only serve for 7 years before being set free (again only if they are hebrew and only if they are male, but then again there is also a condition that allows them to be bound to eternal servitude as well) but it still does not change the fact that the Bible still condones, accepts and even encourages slavery which is a totally abominable practice that no ideology that claims a moral righteousness should preach.

 

As for murder you can try to call it self defense but I am not sure how killing those who work on the Sabbath constitutes as self defense, I don't see how killing those who worship false idols is self defense, I don't see how slaughtering a town and keeping the virgin women as slaves because they did not submit peacefully to the terms that they are either to submit to slavery or die is self defense.

[Elhanan]

Don't know about others, but passages from Proverbs concerning such discussions spring to mind, as well as the phrase, "pearls before swine".

Do not play TW3 myself, but am content that DAI content is more suited for my own gameplay. People keep telling me I should pass on titles with which I disagree, and here I have.

[X Equestris]

How about you look at the New Testament, Skadi. There you can see guidelines which a Christian is bound by. But I doubt you'll do that, since you have an agenda. For someone who claimed to be sick of the religious discussion, you seem to take a special glee in kicking at the figurative hornets' nest. I shouldn't be surprised: this thread seems to have been made to kick a different one.

You seem to be (willfully, perhaps) ignoring the fact that all ancient societies behaved in much the same way. Or worse.

[Elhanan]

How about you look at the New Testament, Skadi. There you can see guidelines which a Christian is bound by. But I doubt you'll do that, since you have an agenda. For someone who claimed to be sick of the religious discussion, you seem to take a special glee in kicking at the figurative hornets' nest. I shouldn't be surprised: this thread seems to have been made to kick a different one.

You seem to be (willfully, perhaps) ignoring the fact that all ancient societies behaved in much the same way. Or worse.

Believe that the Hebrews had better health care by far. And if one simply looks at the OT in context rather than remove it, things appear in a much different light than the one currently being utilized.

As for DAI, the recent story DLC's have added to the discussions of historical and religious lore; recommended.

[Queen Skadi]

How about you look at the New Testament, Skadi. There you can see guidelines which a Christian is bound by. But I doubt you'll do that, since you have an agenda. For someone who claimed to be sick of the religious discussion, you seem to take a special glee in kicking at the figurative hornets' nest. I shouldn't be surprised: this thread seems to have been made to kick a different one.

You seem to be (willfully, perhaps) ignoring the fact that all ancient societies behaved in much the same way. Or worse.

 

The new testament also condones slavery

 

Ephesians 6:5-8

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.

 

Also the crimes of one society do not absolve the crimes of another, just because cousin Boussy went out raping and murdering people does not mean it is ok for you to do it too. And despite what Elhanan might claim I am not sure there is any context that can make these passages sound any less abhorrent.

 

But hey I am more than willing to move off this subject if you are, just don't try to preach to me about how great the bible is as a basis for moral teachings and that a lack of religion is somehow responsible for the world's ills as this it just complete and utter ********.

[Elhanan]

Perhaps if one were to read the next verse concerning how masters were to treat their slaves, it might have a bit more context. And then there is Philemon; a letter thanking a master for the use of his slave, and returning him as a brother. Slavery did exist, and fellowship and teaching within the Church is how the scriptures indicate how to overcome it; not condone it.

But then this is not about a fair and honest discussion, so will gladly move back to the topic of DAI and what it offers that could improve TW3. Will still go with a Pause function.

[wtfman99]

I'm not really in on the whole convo here but i'm nearing the end of Witcher 3 I believe... and just some things i've picked up

 

On the Witcher series, especially Witcher 3, i've played through 1-3, and sometimes there are characters I just have no idea who they are. So sometimes clarity could be useful.

 

I like Witcher 3's open world a tad more then Dragon Ages...feel like it has more personality to it and the large space has things to do, where in some Dragon Age maps they had you going to it was just "this is large because reasons"

 

I like that you can customize your companions in Dragon Age.

 

Witcher 3 I felt has made their "main story" portion of the game a lot heavier and interesting then DA2 and DA:I, but Origins was pretty solid.

 

I think in terms of lore in the world and fleshing out histories, languages etc, Dragon Age has done a better job. I know a lot about Qunari, Elves, Dwarves and there is still so much to explore in Dragon Age. In Witcher, you don't know that much about the other races...

 

Anyways just kind of rambling but thought I would touch upon things i've noticed.

[Heimdall]

The new testament also condones slavery
 

Ephesians 6:5-8
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.
 
Also the crimes of one society do not absolve the crimes of another, just because cousin Boussy went out raping and murdering people does not mean it is ok for you to do it too. And despite what Elhanan might claim I am not sure there is any context that can make these passages sound any less abhorrent.
 
But hey I am more than willing to move off this subject if you are, just don't try to preach to me about how great the bible is as a basis for moral teachings and that a lack of religion is somehow responsible for the world's ills as this it just complete and utter ********.

Up until the past few centuries, all societies condoned slavery a normal moral institution. Is it so strange that an old text reflects that? Besides which, the bible has been used to both defend and attack slavery.

And who here has been claiming that lack of religion is the basis for moral failings? You keep claiming that is the argument against you, but I've never seen it.

[pdusen]

I skipped to the last page of this thread and found it full of biblical quotes. 

 

What the heck is this thread about now?

[Elhanan]

I skipped to the last page of this thread and found it full of biblical quotes.

Yes. Much like the lesson here, one should read the full context to gather as to why.