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Missing the little touches...


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#1
The Oracle

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Okay, so after several playthroughs, I wanted to leave feedback on one of my biggest bugbears about DA:I, and that's the lack of little, meaningful touches that make the game seem more alive and the peril far more immediate and real.

 

Take, for example, one of the first quests you receive, feeding the refugees in the Hinterlands. You talk to the hunter who is worried now that all the bread has run out. "We need meat!" he says to you, or the people will starve. That's a worthy cause to give your time to. Hard to think of it as a pressing issue though, given that if you go into the house directly beside him, it's filled to brimming with butchered animals, hanging sides of meat and various bags full of vegetables. In fact, most of the houses seem to have food lying around all over the place. However, it could be argued that these supplies may not last long. Go up to the hill to speak to Recruit Whittle, and you're practically surround by Inquisition forces, a few of whom are practising with a bow on targets. Rather than have him implore you over the starvation the refugees face...couldn't you suggest that a few of his recruits take their bows and go find some edible targets to practice at? Hell, even if they come back empty handed, it's better than nothing.

 

Also, the Crossroads are meant to be full of injured, starving/freezing refugees. All you're shown though, is a bunch of people standing aimlessly around in some pretty fancy clothing, talking happily to each other and seemingly without a care in the world. None of them talk of hunger, injuries or seem to worry about being homeless and helpless in the middle of a war. Why aren't they mourning over the dead and lost? Why aren't they scrabbling for food or complaining about the cold? The crossroads appear more like a village fete than a town racked by war and devastation and filled full of destitute refugees.

 

The game is plagued by instances of this, where the dialogue your given is so wholly at odds with everything you see and hear around you, that it stops you from feeling any connection or urgency to the story or quests. Almost all of the npc's seem to have two idle stances. Stand about talking or hunching on the ground and running their hands over the dirt (seriously, wtf are they meant to be doing?). With the addition of a few more, they could easily be turned into people actually performing meaningful tasks, like sorting through equipment, or patching up clothing, or even just eating or crying or healing or friggin anything than just standing about or molesting the ground!

 

Also, the game world changes a little (i.e. Templars and Mages not spawning and bandits replacing them etc.) but the buildings that were on fire at the start of the game are still burning when you take down Coryfish. The refugees are supposedly making their way back to their homes and rebuilding their lives, but the crossroads still stay exactly the same and the rest of the world stays empty long after people have resettled.

 

I think if Bioware had taken even a very small amount of time and resources to add more of these little touches into the game, people would find the open world aspect of the game far more enjoyable and it would have helped to drive forward the idea that Thedas is a living, breathing world rather than some static set pieces you run around in. I hope in their next game, they look to address these issues.


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#2
hoechlbear

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That's why I don't give a crap about the NPCs in DAI, specially the refugees. I never once see them in danger, starving, dying, etc. In fact, the only refugees I remember seeing were those people around a campfire that would spawn in random locations around the world. Everything about this game is tell, don't show. "Oooh, these imaginary refugees are dying of cold, please help". There are so many ways they could improve these fetch quests. Like if you don't bring ram meat to them, later you could meet a refugee who lost someone to starvation, and if you do help them, you could have a few refugees coming up to you and thank you. Something that makes me think "wow, I'm glad I did this quest!". 


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#3
vbibbi

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As others have mentioned before, the whole issue of the fade rifts not affecting anything. The demons only spawn when someone gets close enough to the rift, apparently, so people are safe enough if they steer clear of the giant glowy thing easily visibly from the distance. There is no urgency if the demons aren't actually coming out of the rift at any time and then wandering away from the rift.

 

How are the cultists with Anais not all mowed down by living AROUND a rift?!  I liked some of the minor quests where it seemed the veil was thinner and influencing people more, such as apostates summoning demons or hearing voices. I'd prefer more of this subtle demonic influence and less MMO close the rift, get a prize kind of deal.

 

Ideally, I would reduce the amount of rifts to only a few per map, but have them better integrated into the story, like Crestwood. Make them actually influence the environment and have a cause to close them other than collecting useless power points.


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#4
berelinde

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In Baldur's Gate 2, if you didn't help Jan Jansen's ex-GF's kid before you left for Skyhold, you'd come back to find that she died. If you didn't race to Anomen's house after the household retainer showed up, he'd leave the party. If you didn't go running after Jaheira immediately, she would dump you. They kinda-sorta did something similar with some quests becoming uncompletable once In Your Heart Shall Burn was complete, but they didn't go far enough. If you don't find a healer for the Crossroads, you should come back to find a cemetery instead of the field by Recruit Whittle. Also, I would like to dock the pay of the Inquisition soldier who warns you about the East Road Bandits. I went back to the area toward the end of the game, and she was still standing there by that same archway, like some lazy coworker standing at the smoker's corner.


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#5
Belladoni

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or hunching on the ground and running their hands over the dirt (seriously, wtf are they meant to be doing?).
 
Ah yes. The "Groundscrapers".  (Forever titled such in my mind.  Thank you, Jesse Cox. :) )
 
I do agree with the OP for the most part, too.  One thing that never failed to annoy me was being attacked while my Inquisition soldiers completely ignored the battle.  (Giants in Emerald Graves, right next to the two soldiers who have a loot cache jumps to mind).  So glad they are so dedicated to the cause.  So glad keeping the Inquisitor alive is a priority. <_<   In my army, those two would be hung for cowardice or complete dereliction of duty, seriously. 
 
Or, we could just send them out to mop up everything, considering all the baddies completely ignore them.  My Quizzy could have used some of whatever barrier they had.
 
Definitely enjoyed the game, but that kind of immersion-obliterating stuff always makes my eye twitch a little, so I see where you are coming from, OP.

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#6
Cz-99

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I miss the yelling, screaming, coughing and moaning of peasants that DAO had. I remember arriving in Lothering and even though the refugees were decently implemented it was the sound that made the situation feel desperate. Gives off a weird, eerie felling and it's something I didn't wanna listen to for too long.

 

I can understand it not being as bad in DA:I - it's not a blight after all, but as mentioned the lack of actual impact on the story is disappointing.


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#7
hoechlbear

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I miss the yelling, screaming, coughing and moaning of peasants that DAO had. I remember arriving in Lothering and even though the refugees were decently implemented it was the sound that made the situation feel desperate. Gives off a weird, eerie felling and it's something I didn't wanna listen to for too long.

 

I can understand it not being as bad in DA:I - it's not a blight after all, but as mentioned the lack of actual impact on the story is disappointing.

 

Not to mention that in Lothering alone you have at least 4 NPC encounters where you can see how bad the situation is. The boy by the bridge who lost his mother, the elven family who were robbed by the highwaymen, the merchant taking advantage of the refugees and the doomsayer annoying and scaring everyone. In DAI you never see anything like that.


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#8
Koneko Koji

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I feel the same way - the lack of changes and impact bothers me.

On a slightly related note, I also get irritated by the random loot in the chests - have it by all means, but when I go into a SEALED ancient Elven temple, I don't expect to find nothing but Qunari vitaars that they seem to have hoarded by the ton.


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#9
Darkly Tranquil

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hunching on the ground and running their hands over the dirt (seriously, wtf are they meant to be doing?).

 
Obviously they dropped a contact lens and they're looking for it.
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#10
Koneko Koji

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Obviously they dropped a contact lens and they're looking for it.

 

Ahh that makes sense - I thought they were doing the sulky 'I'm in trouble and have been told off' doodle! XD



#11
duckley

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They paid great attention to amazing details - the cobbled stones and designs on bridges, the foam and the pounding surf on the storm coast, the caterpillar eaten leaves on some of the trees in the Hinterlands.... breathtaking!!!!!!!  But then they forgot that children live in Thedas too, that women don't usually walk like they have something between their legs, that male Elves arms should be at their sides, not their backs, and that most women don't shave their heads.

 

I have no doubt that there was so much to pay attention to something got away from them , but I think we should see something tighter next game. They can focus solely on new gen and pc and will have more experience in putting together more open worlds.


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#12
line_genrou

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Yes, the open world is static.


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#13
line_genrou

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They paid great attention to amazing details - the cobbled stones and designs on bridges, the foam and the pounding surf on the storm coast, the caterpillar eaten leaves on some of the trees in the Hinterlands.... breathtaking!!!!!!!  But then they forgot that children live in Thedas too, that women don't usually walk like they have something between their legs, that male Elves arms should be at their sides, not their backs, and that most women don't shave their heads.

 

I have no doubt that there was so much to pay attention to something got away from them , but I think we should see something tighter next game. They can focus solely on new gen and pc and will have more experience in putting together more open worlds.

 

They're BioWare, they're supposed to be experienced enough to handle side-quests and immersion.

I'm tired of the "we'll learn from our mistakes and do better next time"

I'm sorry, if you can't understand the basics in what makes a game interesting and immersive WHILE you're making the game, how come you expect me to believe the next game will be oh so amazing suddenly? I mean, jesus christ, indie games are handling better.


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#14
BansheeOwnage

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The game is plagued by instances of this, where the dialogue your given is so wholly at odds with everything you see and hear around you, that it stops you from feeling any connection or urgency to the story or quests.

Great post, but I wanted to respond to this specifically. Sometimes this even happens with main story missions, and one in particular keeps bugging me, so I wanted to share it. Basically, all of In Your Heart Shall Burn (awesome mission that it is) seems to have a ton of gameplay-story segregation, to the point where it's confusing.

 

First, the infamous scene where Cullen recognizes Samson from a ridiculous distance. (Cullen, what do your Templar eyes see?) Mildly immersion breaking, because it's clear the level layout was different in their minds than the game.

 

Then, you go to the chantry, where apparently everyone still alive is taking refuge, only it's empty except for your party and a couple of soldiers. None of the people you could just save are there, no more soldiers, and no civilians, even though at Skyhold Cullen says you saved most of the people at Haven. Having fun hanging around the void, Inquisition?

 

And then a few when you opt to distract Corypheus. It seems like you're both supposed to take a party, and also be solo at the same time. It seems like you're supposed to take a party because your Inquisitor will tell them to run away when Corypheus shows up (she'll even yell at nobody when solo, I tried). But it seems like you're supposed to be alone too, otherwise your "sacrifice" seems unfairly focused upon considering three other people are going with you, who never get a word of thanks either before or after the event, unlike you.

 

In the same vein, how the heck are your companions supposed to have survived the avalanche? You only tell them to run after Corypheus shows up (and I could write a paragraph about how telling them to run makes no sense, but I won't). So I'm supposed to believe that they either ran so fast that they got to Cullen's flare before the slide? Now, you could consider this a plothole if you want, but I think it's gameplay-story segregation either because the terrain was laid out differently than in the writers imagination, or they only had you take a party for gameplay reasons, and literally handwaved them away when you're supposed to be alone making a heroic sacrifice. (Which is why I solo'd the mission once; it felt more natural and heroic.)

 

Next up, relating to that scene again, Mother Giselle later acts like the people saw Corypheus, knew what he looked like, and saw you face him. Okay, maybe your three optional companions saw him for a second while running away really fast, but even then, it's not enough. And she says that "the people saw you fall, and saw you rise." What? No one saw that. Is she just being metaphorical? I mean, I'm sure Cullen would have told the people what you did, so they think you're probably dead, and then you appear alive. Alright. But no one saw it happen. Which makes it a bit unbelievable that everyone thinks you performed a miracle. I mean, sure, it's unlikely you survived that, but wouldn't they just think: "Okay, she's probably dead. Oh, wait, no she isn't!" I don't see the miracle, but that might just be me.

 

Anyway, I blame all of that on what you see being different than what's implied or told, which is what you were talking about (in this case, how the level looks being at odds with the story, just like your food example). And let it be known, that's probably my favourite mission! I just can't ignore those things; they're irksome. And I agree that it's a huge factor in sidequests too. And sidequests rarely have consequences, as mentioned above. No one starves or freezes to death if you do nothing. All you get when you do it is a thank you. And that's nice, but I want to see the difference I supposedly made. After 2 completionist playthroughs, I'm waning. This time, I can't push myself to do everything, because I know it really makes no difference. It would be like if all of the side content in ME3 didn't even give you numbered war assets. It's pointless... well, aside from experience points :P

 

Combine all that with not being able to have proper conversations with NPCs (which makes you not remember what they look like and means there are literally no facial expressions for you or them, removing a huge aspect of communication), and sidequests become extremely forgettable. It makes me sad. It could have been avoided with just a bit more effort, even if that meant fewer quests and areas. Quality over quantity.

 

And one more thing: Why are rifts do disappointing? They're almost all isolated, and only spawn demons if you approach them. Why aren't demons roaming the countryside as they are said to be? Show us. Have them attack populated areas every now and then like dragons in Skyrim. Even in desert areas, running into them before you close rifts would be good. Just give us a reason to do it besides Power and Influence (two things I could also rant about at length).

 

So yeah. I love the game, don't get me wrong. But it has flaws. I hope the next game shows us more than it tells, and what it shows should be consistent with what is told. Sorry for the wall of text ^_^


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#15
Dutch's Ghost

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They're BioWare, they're supposed to be experienced enough to handle side-quests and immersion.
I'm tired of the "we'll learn from our mistakes and do better next time"
I'm sorry, if you can't understand the basics in what makes a game interesting and immersive WHILE you're making the game, how come you expect me to believe the next game will be oh so amazing suddenly? I mean, jesus christ, indie games are handling better.


It's because Darrah & Laidlaw are terrible game directors.
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#16
In Exile

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They're BioWare, they're supposed to be experienced enough to handle side-quests and immersion.

I'm tired of the "we'll learn from our mistakes and do better next time"

I'm sorry, if you can't understand the basics in what makes a game interesting and immersive WHILE you're making the game, how come you expect me to believe the next game will be oh so amazing suddenly? I mean, jesus christ, indie games are handling better.

 

Have you played a Bioware game before? They're terrible at designing quests (apart from writing generally good-to-great story/conversations for them) and they were never able to do anything that counted as "immersion". They created a by-the-numbers isometric game ala Fallout 1 with less developed characters and a really dry and sparse setting in BG1, upped the writing count (and quality) exponentially by BG2, and then subsequently re-created the same style of game over and over again while using different technologies and platforms to do it. 



#17
Elhanan

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It's because Darrah & Laidlaw are terrible game directors.


And they have the awards to prove it.... :rolleyes:
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#18
Elhanan

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@ OP

I am uncertain if orders for other hunters were given or not; am certain that the Inquisitor was asked to help. And that locker room described could be what is currently on hand from such aid gathered for a growing population of victims. After all, the battle does continue for some time.

As for the refugees, in my game I was asked to help by a few, though I also include Redcliffe proper and the outlying farms. And folks respond to grief and tragedy in various ways, be it anger, sadness, levity, avoidance, etc. And once helped, there is feedback given in banter thanking and describing amongst each other that there gratitude to the Inquisition. More can be learned through various NPC's (Corp. Vale, Mother Giselle, the Hunter, etc).

#19
Edorian27

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I do agree the sidequests are a weakness of the game. While discussing it with a friend, we compared it to the DA:O Quest in Redcliffe where you had to find that boy and could get a sword for it. 

Now, down to its core it's a simple, search and return quest, so why did I like it?

 

- I was drawn to it not only by a mark over the head but by a sipping girl in a chantry.

- It was embedded into the story and fitted the situation and setting

- You could react in several ways (disregard her, yell at the boy or be nice to him, kick the door), thus building your character

- Depending of what you did, you get different rewards or can even spend money (A sword? A kiss? Nothing but a thank you? What'd you like?)

- Companions commented to it and reacted to it.

 

This is how a gread subquest has to be imho. Now compare it to "hunting for the refugees at the crossroads"... ???

 

You can't put too much Roleplay in a RPG.


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#20
Elhanan

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I do agree the sidequests are a weakness of the game. While discussing it with a friend, we compared it to the DA:O Quest in Redcliffe where you had to find that boy and could get a sword for it. 
Now, down to its core it's a simple, search and return quest, so why did I like it?
 
- I was drawn to it not only by a mark over the head but by a sipping girl in a chantry.
- It was embedded into the story and fitted the situation and setting
- You could react in several ways (disregard her, yell at the boy or be nice to him, kick the door), thus building your character
- Depending of what you did, you get different rewards or can even spend money (A sword? A kiss? Nothing but a thank you? What'd you like?)
- Companions commented to it and reacted to it.
 
This is how a gread subquest has to be imho. Now compare it to "hunting for the refugees at the crossroads"... ???
 
You can't put too much Roleplay in a RPG.


Love the side quest mentioned in DAO, but it is unfairly compared with the hunting quest when that is more on line with gathering Spider venom to help protect the fields in Lothering. And as much as I enjoy the former quest, I still prefer fewer cut-scenes overall, esp when they are for side quests.

#21
Lawrence0294

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Love the side quest mentioned in DAO, but it is unfairly compared with the hunting quest when that is more on line with gathering Spider venom to help protect the fields in Lothering. And as much as I enjoy the former quest, I still prefer fewer cut-scenes overall, esp when they are for side quests.

I'm still massively confused by this. Why on earth would you prefer fewer cut-scenes for side quests ?

From my experience, giving side-quests as much cut scenes as main quests, allows for them to feel like they actually matter, not that you are suddenly doing some second tier quest that not much work was put into. I love side-quests because they give me a good little break from the main one and gives me a small, compact, story to experience, a bit like a short story. And sometimes a side-quest can tie in to the main one and that's really great.

 

The panning camera always reminded me that the quest I was doing was low tier compared to the other ones and it made it much harder for me to connect with the NPCs when I couldn't see their facial expressions.

I hope, very much so, that for the next Dragon Age, Bioware will ditch this panning camera and go back to what they used to do with DA:O and even DA:2.


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#22
Elhanan

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I'm still massively confused by this. Why on earth would you prefer fewer cut-scenes for side quests ?
From my experience, giving side-quests as much cut scenes as main quests, allows for them to feel like they actually matter, not that you are suddenly doing some second tier quest that not much work was put into. I love side-quests because they give me a good little break from the main one and gives me a small, compact, story to experience, a bit like a short story. And sometimes a side-quest can tie in to the main one and that's really great.
 
The panning camera always reminded me that the quest I was doing was low tier compared to the other ones and it made it much harder for me to connect with the NPCs when I couldn't see their facial expressions.
I hope, very much so, that for the next Dragon Age, Bioware will ditch this panning camera and go back to what they used to do with DA:O and even DA:2.


Cut-scenes are films showing what the designer wishes us to see; not what the Player chooses to do. I prefer to control the action and dialogue of the PC as much as possible, and accepting rewards for finding things is generally not a priority.

#23
Rawgrim

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And they have the awards to prove it.... :rolleyes:

 

Indeed. EA paid good money for those.


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#24
Lawrence0294

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Cut-scenes are films showing what the designer wishes us to see; not what the Player chooses to do. I prefer to control the action and dialogue of the PC as much as possible, and accepting rewards for finding things is generally not a priority.

You are correct. I think in the end it seems we are looking for different experiences. You see, I want to see what the author of the story...wants me to see (god that sounded poorly phrased =p).

I play story driven games because I want to experience a well crafted story and I want the writers and cinematic designers to take me in the journey. The problem with the panning camera is that it offers terrible shots. You never see the faces from up close, therefore not connecting with the NPCs and to some extent, your own Inquisitor, and just don't see facial expressions which is key in dialogue delivery. Plus the panning camera offers very limited options.

Maybe it's because I adore cinema but to me, shots are a storytelling tool and can be as important as dialogues in story driven content. 


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#25
Elhanan

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You are correct. I think in the end it seems we are looking for different experiences. You see, I want to see what the author of the story...wants me to see (god that sounded poorly phrased =p).
I play story driven games because I want to experience a well crafted story and I want the writers and cinematic designers to take me in the journey. The problem with the panning camera is that it offers terrible shots. You never see the faces from up close, therefore not connecting with the NPCs and to some extent, your own Inquisitor, and just don't see facial expressions which is key in dialogue delivery. Plus the panning camera offers very limited options.
Maybe it's because I adore cinema but to me, shots are a storytelling tool and can be as important as dialogues in story driven content.


And I prefer RP in a RPG. Main story and quest cut-scenes are generally fine, but are also plentiful enough on their own without the need to emplace them for secondary tasks.