73 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

But it's the same thing with the panning camera. The difference is that you are simply waiting for the characters to finish talking in a static camera shot that is always the same, before having your next selection of choices. Having a static camera or cut-scenes changes nothing to the amount of auto dialogue. The only difference is that with cut-scenes there is added dynamism as well as having the chance of seeing characters up close.
 
Again, creating cut-scenes is an art, it can be a story device and when used well it adds so much to the story and I happen to want story heavy sidequests.

And personally, I do not want a repeat of ME3 monologues and cut-scenes long enough for snack breaks while I wait for the next prompt. Several Posters have been asking for a reduction in them for a while, and we like the new/ old approach in DAI.

[Lawrence0294]

And personally, I do not want a repeat of ME3 monologues and cut-scenes long enough for snack breaks while I wait for the next prompt. Several Posters have been asking for a reduction in them for a while, and we like the new/ old approach in DAI.

I don't think anyone wants a repeat of that. One of the major complaints of ME3 was indeed the massive amount of auto-dialogue. But like I mentioned in a previous post, ME3 is an extreme and a mistake. What Bioware should have gone back to is the ME1, ME2 and DA2 style and not what they often do and that is take a critic and do the extreme opposite. Bioware has a history of doing that: People didn't like mako = now you scan. People didn't like scan = now you do nothing. 

And in this case: People didn't like the auto-dialogue = Remove a massive amount of cut-scenes (and that doesn't even tackle the actual complaint like a said in the previous post).

I'm sure some, like you, like it, but don't paint everyone who complained about the ME3 auto dialogue as the defenders of this reduction (that is what I assume you were implying, do tell me if I'm incorrect). Many, I'm sure you have noticed, heavily dislike this reduction and hope Bioware sees this experiment as a failure.

[Elhanan]

I don't think anyone wants a repeat of that. One of the major complaints of ME3 was indeed the massive amount of auto-dialogue. But like I mentioned in a previous post, ME3 is an extreme and a mistake. What Bioware should have gone back to is the ME1, ME2 and DA2 style and not what they often do and that is take a critic and do the extreme opposite. Bioware has a history of doing that: People didn't like mako = now you scan. People didn't like scan = now you do nothing. 
And in this case: People didn't like the auto-dialogue = Remove a massive amount of cut-scenes (and that doesn't even tackle the actual complaint like a said in the previous post).
I'm sure some, like you, like it, but don't paint everyone who complained about the ME3 auto dialogue as the defenders of this reduction (that is what I assume you were implying, do tell me if I'm incorrect). Many, I'm sure you have noticed, heavily dislike this reduction and hope Bioware sees this experiment as a failure.

Possibly true; will have to continue to see (and lobby) until the next game.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

It's possible I'm confused about when you're talking about, but if you mean asking if there are "any visiting dignitaries I should watch out for" then no, that's not a cinematic conversation. It's a "simple" conversation, according to the hints in DA:I.

 

 

Elhanan already answered an example of a cutscene (basically stuff that has a lot of movement and animation), but you won't really find any cinematic conversations in DA:I, because they elected to replace them with "simple conversations", as in the ones that are zoomed out and spend your time turning the camera trying to find a proper angle while also being able to hear them, because the audio is stupid like that

 

An example of cinematic conversation is any given camp conversation in DA:O. They'll have over-the-shoulder angles so you can see faces, and switch angles for who is speaking, just like a cutscene, only simpler. They'll also have facial expressions, but not much movement. Actually, I guess an example of one in DA:I would be the War Table discussions. Not the banter, but the pre-mission discussions with the advisors.

 

Hope that helps

 

 

The worst part of the 'simple conversations' are that you can walk away from them. For some reason the devs thought this was a good idea. The problem being, however, that the npc can also walk away from them, and often do. Certain npcs seem intent on going about their business (Corporal Vale and the dragon researcher especially) walk out of conversation range unless you hop around after them.

 

I'm not sure where I stand on this issue. Certainly in DAO cutscenes were over done. But the over done part was when you talk to a merchant, and have to go through their intro dialog every time you want to buy something. The click to buy chests were an improvement over this, but they also dropped the ability to talk to a merchant if you chose to. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Another example of Bioware over correcting what some see as a problem.

 

I much prefer cutscenes for actual quests however. Cutscenes that server some purpose, story building, character building and so on. Cutscenes that have me talk to an npc or follower, only to be told they have nothing new to talk about I can do without.

[Elhanan]

The worst part of the 'simple conversations' are that you can walk away from them. For some reason the devs thought this was a good idea. The problem being, however, that the npc can also walk away from them, and often do. Certain npcs seem intent on going about their business (Corporal Vale and the dragon researcher especially) walk out of conversation range unless you hop around after them.
 
I'm not sure where I stand on this issue. Certainly in DAO cutscenes were over done. But the over done part was when you talk to a merchant, and have to go through their intro dialog every time you want to buy something. The click to buy chests were an improvement over this, but they also dropped the ability to talk to a merchant if you chose to. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Another example of Bioware over correcting what some see as a problem.
 
I much prefer cutscenes for actual quests however. Cutscenes that server some purpose, story building, character building and so on. Cutscenes that have me talk to an npc or follower, only to be told they have nothing new to talk about I can do without.

Actually, one may speak with some merchants in DAI; a few even offer quests.

[BansheeOwnage]

I have been able to get close-ups of several conversations; Josephine's occur more frequently as her desk is apparently well positioned for dialogue. Just had another in the farms of the Hinterlands while accepting the watch tower quest; was able to see his face well enough to check lip synch. These are good enough for me for minor quests, and cut-scenes are certainly not needed, IMO.

You are apparently missing my entire point about using different terminology for different conversations to avoid confusion. Just because one happens to have a better angle, or you got a wall behind your camera, forcing a closer view doesn't change the fact that those are simple conversations, not cinematic ones. And you're still missing the point about the difference between cutscenes and cinematics, because I've already said I don't need cutscenes for minor quests, but would like cinematics. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I just feel like you ignored my post.

 

While true, most is auto-dialogue, and is simply watching the PC until the next prompt. Prefer cut-scenes to remain focused on the Main story and possibly linked quests; not for secondary and minor quests.

Hardly. Inquisition has the least amount of autodialogue in recent BW history, barring DA:O (because of the silent protagonist). Your statement might be true for ME3, but there are heaps of dialogue choices in DA:I cutscenes (for which I'm thankful), and most of the autodialogue consists of neutral comments/questions that advance the conversation.

 

And to your second point: There is literally no difference between simple conversations and cinematic ones in terms of structure. The same dialogue happens. The only differences are:

 

- The audio is superior in cinematic ones, because in simple ones, it changes depending on the camera angle and distance. That sometimes makes it hard to hear the conversation properly, and no matter what you do it's still quieter than cutscene volume.

 

- The camera angle itself, allowing you to see faces and facial expression, as well as both faces in a streamlined manner, unlike simple conversations where you will have to look at only one person's face, or none.

 

- That there are facial expressions. With DA:I's improvement to them, it's really a shame that they are not present in so many conversations, especially when the terrific voice acting is lessened somewhat by seeing a blank face go with masterfully delivered, emotional lines.

 

In Inquisition an example of cinematic conversation would be the briefings that we get with Harding whenever we first go to a new area.

Ah yes, that's true. Thanks for the example!

[Elhanan]

You are apparently missing my entire point about using different terminology for different conversations to avoid confusion. Just because one happens to have a better angle, or you got a wall behind your camera, forcing a closer view doesn't change the fact that those are simple conversations, not cinematic ones. And you're still missing the point about the difference between cutscenes and cinematics, because I've already said I don't need cutscenes for minor quests, but would like cinematics. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I just feel like you ignored my post.
 
Hardly. Inquisition has the least amount of autodialogue in recent BW history, barring DA:O (because of the silent protagonist). Your statement might be true for ME3, but there are heaps of dialogue choices in DA:I cutscenes (for which I'm thankful), and most of the autodialogue consists of neutral comments/questions that advance the conversation.
 
And to your second point: There is literally no difference between simple conversations and cinematic ones in terms of structure. The same dialogue happens. The only differences are:
 
- The audio is superior in cinematic ones, because in simple ones, it changes depending on the camera angle and distance. That sometimes makes it hard to hear the conversation properly, and no matter what you do it's still quieter than cutscene volume.
 
- The camera angle itself, allowing you to see faces and facial expression, as well as both faces in a streamlined manner, unlike simple conversations where you will have to look at only one person's face, or none.
 
- That there are facial expressions. With DA:I's improvement to them, it's really a shame that they are not present in so many conversations, especially when the terrific voice acting is lessened somewhat by seeing a blank face go with masterfully delivered, emotional lines.
 
Ah yes, that's true. Thanks for the example!

Then I am for simple conversations for secondary and minor quests; cinematic and cut-scenes for Main and aligned quests.

[BansheeOwnage]

And personally, I do not want a repeat of ME3 monologues and cut-scenes long enough for snack breaks while I wait for the next prompt. Several Posters have been asking for a reduction in them for a while, and we like the new/ old approach in DAI.

Again, cutscene volume has nothing to do with autodialogue volume. I'm glad ME3 had a lot of cutscenes, but not glad it had a lot of autodialogue. That was a separate and unrelated decision. As DA:I shows, you can have little autodialogue in cutscenes if you chose. ME3 simply didn't. Correlation =/= causation and all that.

[The Oracle]

What I dislike about the current set up is that the camera swivels around and I have no control over it, meaning that alot of my conversations are just me staring at trees/bushes/tents blocking my actual view of the dialogue with no way for me to change it. I also don't understand why they bothered to include the cutscenes of your recently acquired agents bowing to you. That's just...what's the point in wasting a cutscene on that? Why not have the cutscene focused on the often very interesting plot for why your recruiting them (pretend chantry sister, scout that's sleeping about, noble that's lost his love etc) rather than waste some of my time showing me a close up of people bowing to me?

 

It seems a bit pointless really.

[BansheeOwnage]

Then I am for simple conversations for secondary and minor quests; cinematic and cut-scenes for Main and aligned quests.

Well then we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see and am unlikely to see how not having or seeing facial expressions is an advantage.

[BansheeOwnage]

What I dislike about the current set up is that the camera swivels around and I have no control over it, meaning that alot of my conversations are just me staring at trees/bushes/tents blocking my actual view of the dialogue with no way for me to change it. I also don't understand why they bothered to include the cutscenes of your recently acquired agents bowing to you. That's just...what's the point in wasting a cutscene on that? Why not have the cutscene focused on the often very interesting plot for why your recruiting them (pretend chantry sister, scout that's sleeping about, noble that's lost his love etc) rather than waste some of my time showing me a close up of people bowing to me?

 

It seems a bit pointless really.

Yes, that is weird prioritization. Not that Bioware doesn't have wacky priorities all the time, but you're right. Odd to have those (or a 2 second shot of the Inquisitor after you capture a keep) but not in conversations.

 

And your first point I totally agree with, and most people haven't actually mentioned. The angles themselves are almost universally terrible in simple conversations.

[Elhanan]

Well then we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see and am unlikely to see how not having or seeing facial expressions is an advantage.

Do not need them for minor encounters. These range from finding pantaloons for folks in Kirkwall, delivering a last message to a widowed shop clerk, getting the latest requisition from an Officer, etc. No cinematics are required.

However, if the quest giver is of importance (eg; may assign more than one task like Corporal Vale, Agents, etc) I can accept that a cinematic approach could be helpful in better identifying them to the Player.

[Statare]

Well then we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see and am unlikely to see how not having or seeing facial expressions is an advantage.

 

The only really compelling argument I have seen in regards to having the zoomed out conversations is that it allows for more dialogue/quests in a game (less resource intensive so more), but I'm not sure if more is always better after DA:I.

 

Really my critique of DAI is that while Thedas feels like a world with places, it does not feel like a world affected by people. In DAO when you went into Elven Ruins in the Brecilian Forest, you did not just read codexes and fight undead. There was a Phylactery that taught you magic if you wanted and Elven Ghosts and minor Puzzle quests that made the Ruins feel like it was inhabited by Elves or whatever at some point. In DAI, outside the Dungeon Ruins, you waltz into little square holes in the ground, fight some undead or spiders or squatters, light a Veil Fire torch and get a rune design. Does nothing for making the world feel like a place that was affected by people who lived there, but a mechanic designed by game developers. Then you read the amazing Codexes and see the really nice Vistas, and it just seems like a stage waiting for some great performance that never happens.

[Lawrence0294]

Do not need them for minor encounters. These range from finding pantaloons for folks in Kirkwall, delivering a last message to a widowed shop clerk, getting the latest requisition from an Officer, etc. No cinematics are required.

However, if the quest giver is of importance (eg; may assign more than one task like Corporal Vale, Agents, etc) I can accept that a cinematic approach could be helpful in better identifying them to the Player.

Let me give you an example:

 

Your character delivers the message to the widow. With cinematics, you could get a close up to the widow's face and imagine seeing her face tearing up as she is reading the message from her lost husband. Can you honestly tell me you could get any type of emotional weight with a zoomed out camera where you could barely see her face ?

[Elhanan]

The only really compelling argument I have seen in regards to having the zoomed out conversations is that it allows for more dialogue/quests in a game (less resource intensive so more), but I'm not sure if more is always better after DA:I.
 
Really my critique of DAI is that while Thedas feels like a world with places, it does not feel like a world affected by people. In DAO when you went into Elven Ruins in the Brecilian Forest, you did not just read codexes and fight undead. There was a Phylactery that taught you magic if you wanted and Elven Ghosts and minor Puzzle quests that made the Ruins feel like it was inhabited by Elves or whatever at some point. In DAI, outside the Dungeon Ruins, you waltz into little square holes in the ground, fight some undead or spiders or squatters, light a Veil Fire torch and get a rune design. Does nothing for making the world feel like a place that was affected by people who lived there, but a mechanic designed by game developers. Then you read the amazing Codexes and see the really nice Vistas, and it just seems like a stage waiting for some great performance that never happens.

In ME3; King of the Cut-scenes, one could pass by an Asari Huntress going under counseling as she describes the events that placed her in the current state. A simple conversation, and one of the memorable events in the game. Same goes for many of the encounters on the Normandy with many of the crew, including Kenneth and Gabby:



Memorable moments do not require cinematics and cut-scenes.

[CDR Aedan Cousland]

In ME3; King of the Cut-scenes, one could pass by an Asari Huntress going under counseling as she describes the events that placed her in the current state. A simple conversation, and one of the memorable events in the game. Same goes for many of the encounters on the Normandy with many of the crew, including Kenneth and Gabby:

 

[snip]

Memorable moments do not require cinematics and cut-scenes.

 

True enough in these cases, however those didn't need cutscenes in the first place, as they are ambient conversations. I think DAI's non-cutscene conversations (with the PC actually interacting with people) weren't memorable in the slightest. I felt no impact from them, and they left me feeling completely uninterested. If conversations with important NPCs (companions, advisers, and important side-quest NPCs) took place as cutscenes, they'd have more weight to them, in general, and someone like me, whose attention span is rubbish, would have a much easier time focusing on what is being said. I missed most of what people talked about with me simply because nothing grabbed my attention and kept hold of it. It's a shame, though I know this is really more my problem than anyone else's.

[Elhanan]

True enough in these cases, however those didn't need cutscenes in the first place, as they are ambient conversations. I think DAI's non-cutscene conversations (with the PC actually interacting with people) weren't memorable in the slightest. I felt no impact from them, and they left me feeling completely uninterested. If conversations with important NPCs (companions, advisers, and important side-quest NPCs) took place as cutscenes, they'd have more weight to them, in general, and someone like me, whose attention span is rubbish, would have a much easier time focusing on what is being said. I missed most of what people talked about with me simply because nothing grabbed my attention and kept hold of it. It's a shame, though I know this is really more my problem than anyone else's.

And others plus myself were rather affected by the simple conversations overheard with grateful refugees, soldiers speaking of turnips, and seeing a spy advance into a steward in DAI. Will have to see what is done in the next game.

[CDR Aedan Cousland]

And others plus myself were rather affected by the simple conversations overheard with grateful refugees, soldiers speaking of turnips, and seeing a spy advance into a steward in DAI. Will have to see what is done in the next game.

 

I liked the ones in relation to what Cole did, but they still made no impact with me, personally. Also liked the few humorous ambient conversations, as well, but I still couldn't say they were memorable.

 

Indeed we will! I'd be happy if they found some kind of balance in the next installment. Just simple, DAO-style cutscenes for simpler interactions with companions and other people of import, but no full-on cinematics if it doesn't take place in the main storyline (or an important side quest). Everything utterly unimportant should stay as is, without cutscenes. Naturally, YMMV, as we're all individuals with different preferences, but I do hope the memorable ambient conversations will also make a return.

[Elhanan]

I liked the ones in relation to what Cole did, but they still made no impact with me, personally. Also liked the few humorous ambient conversations, as well, but I still couldn't say they were memorable.
 
Indeed we will! I'd be happy if they found some kind of balance in the next installment. Just simple, DAO-style cutscenes for simpler interactions with companions and other people of import, but no full-on cinematics if it doesn't take place in the main storyline (or an important side quest). Everything utterly unimportant should stay as is, without cutscenes. Naturally, YMMV, as we're all individuals with different preferences, but I do hope the memorable ambient conversations will also make a return.

And other Players disagree, as opinions vary. Personally hope the massive films are gone for good, at least.

[Zinho73]

Do not need them for minor encounters. These range from finding pantaloons for folks in Kirkwall, delivering a last message to a widowed shop clerk, getting the latest requisition from an Officer, etc. No cinematics are required.

However, if the quest giver is of importance (eg; may assign more than one task like Corporal Vale, Agents, etc) I can accept that a cinematic approach could be helpful in better identifying them to the Player.

 

To be honestly, giving the importance of the main character they should get rid of all those mundane stuff and concentrate in making subquests more memorable, with several tiers, options and outcomes.

 

Yes, cinematic angles help you to get immersed, but what really help you to get immersed is relevance, delivered with creativity and substance. I can tolerate a lot of cut scenes if they are good and involving - and if the cutscene is to the point it will rarely be extensive or boring. If it is smart, it won't get in the way of your roleplaying.

 

The main problem I have with DAI is that most quests are not relevant to the story and are also disconnected from your character. Even relationships are mostly a laundry list of options and are not really integrated with the story or your character.

 

I think all dialogue should have cinematic angles because I think all dialogue should matter. I will gladly play a shorter game that has much more attention to detail, instead of spending hour running around picking flowers, circumnavigating rocks and fighting the same enemies over and over.

[thewatcheruatu]

And I prefer RP in a RPG. Main story and quest cut-scenes are generally fine, but are also plentiful enough on their own without the need to emplace them for secondary tasks.

 

[Edit: Reading more of this thread, I'm now no longer sure I'm replying to this correctly. By "cutscene", below, what I actually meant was "cinematic conversations". I'll update my post, though perhaps that makes it no longer a proper response to the above quote.]

 

This is more a problem of secondary tasks being gratuitous and boring, in my opinion.

 

Star Wars: The Old Republic recently dropped cinematic conversations for sidequests, as well, and even though I feel a little sad about it, there was a rationale to it that made sense in the context of an MMO. Basically, MMOs have to present you with a ton of things to do in order to convince you to keep playing. And many players, apparently, felt that the ancillary quests were a distraction from the main plot (i.e., they couldn't follow the main plot, because the focus on storytelling in the various world quests was equally as sharp).

 

In a single-player game, however--and especially one that constantly gates me from advancing the main plot through various mechanics, I'd rather just have fewer quests of higher quality and storytelling. The fact that so many of the quests lack cinematic conversations is one of many reasons Dragon Age: Inquisition feels way more like an MMO to me than a true single-player successor to DAO and DA2 (both of which I enjoyed more than Inquisition, to be honest).

[Elhanan]

Much prefer the side quests of DAI over those of DA2, not to mention the use of 'valuables/ junk' loot. Enjoy the entire series but for myself: DAO > DAI > DA2.

And I shall miss SWTOR for the single player experience; only reason I used to play.

[BansheeOwnage]

Do not need them for minor encounters. These range from finding pantaloons for folks in Kirkwall, delivering a last message to a widowed shop clerk, getting the latest requisition from an Officer, etc. No cinematics are required.

However, if the quest giver is of importance (eg; may assign more than one task like Corporal Vale, Agents, etc) I can accept that a cinematic approach could be helpful in better identifying them to the Player.

To that I will defer to Lawrence's answer.

 

Let me give you an example:

 

Your character delivers the message to the widow. With cinematics, you could get a close up to the widow's face and imagine seeing her face tearing up as she is reading the message from her lost husband. Can you honestly tell me you could get any type of emotional weight with a zoomed out camera where you could barely see her face ?

I really don't understand why someone would want to skip out of facial expression It only adds to the experience.

 

The only really compelling argument I have seen in regards to having the zoomed out conversations is that it allows for more dialogue/quests in a game (less resource intensive so more), but I'm not sure if more is always better after DA:I.

 

Really my critique of DAI is that while Thedas feels like a world with places, it does not feel like a world affected by people. In DAO when you went into Elven Ruins in the Brecilian Forest, you did not just read codexes and fight undead. There was a Phylactery that taught you magic if you wanted and Elven Ghosts and minor Puzzle quests that made the Ruins feel like it was inhabited by Elves or whatever at some point. In DAI, outside the Dungeon Ruins, you waltz into little square holes in the ground, fight some undead or spiders or squatters, light a Veil Fire torch and get a rune design. Does nothing for making the world feel like a place that was affected by people who lived there, but a mechanic designed by game developers. Then you read the amazing Codexes and see the really nice Vistas, and it just seems like a stage waiting for some great performance that never happens.

To your first paragraph: That sounds like it makes sense in theory, but almost every conversation in DA:O and DA2 had cinematics, so it is apparently very possible to achieve, with a smaller budget too. I'd imagine they had a preset angle that they could "apply" to a character, making the cinematic conversations done by "copy-pasting", unlike a cutscene, where you plan everything from scratch.

 

For the second, I couldn't agree more!

[Elhanan]

To that I will defer to Lawrence's answer.
 
I really don't understand why someone would want to skip out of facial expression It only adds to the experience.
 
To your first paragraph: That sounds like it makes sense in theory, but almost every conversation in DA:O and DA2 had cinematics, so it is apparently very possible to achieve, with a smaller budget too. I'd imagine they had a preset angle that they could "apply" to a character, making the cinematic conversations done by "copy-pasting", unlike a cutscene, where you plan everything from scratch.
 
For the second, I couldn't agree more!

Because immersion is subjective, and cinematic scenes do not do not add it for myself. Am content without having to have close-ups of those assigned to many secondary and minor tasks.