415 réponses à ce sujet

[Cee]

Not to mention Cole's previous experiences in Asunder.

 

On my secondplaythrough, I'm still undecided if I'm going to be evil enough to take him to Adamant and into the Fade. I will feel terrible.

[Sabriel.]

Poor fellow, yes. And as far as the "make the rest of the group jump out of their skin" potential of some of Cole's remarks go, his quiet mention that the darkspawn are singing beneath them is probably at the top. I imagined everyone else instantly snapping into defensive positions, expecting an ambush, before he gets around to clarifying that the darkspawn are far away and not right there.

 

On a related note, I really wish the option to destroy Adamant hadn't bugged out for me (I didn't even know about it until someone mentioned it on the forums). It's a rather ignoble end for a once-proud fortress, but between all that happened there and Cole's unusually vehement opinion on it, my Inquisitor was so done with that place. I think it would be a relief for Cole, and maybe a bitter kind of satisfaction for our soldiers who lost so many of their comrades there.

Sometimes the things he says reminds me of when my cat will suddenly start staring up at the corner of my room, intently, at absolutely nothing. Like, what do you see?! You're scaring me, man. The one that freaked me out the most was in Emprise du Lion when you run over the frozen river and Cole lets everyone know that someone froze to death right there. "It was like falling asleep." ..........Cole.

 

About Adamant, I wouldn't be surprised if they just say the Inquisition destroyed it later anyway. At least I hope they do. If Cole of all people says something is irredeemable, probably best for everyone that it disappear. (Like Erimond hahaha)

[Sabriel.]

Not to mention Cole's previous experiences in Asunder.

 

On my secondplaythrough, I'm still undecided if I'm going to be evil enough to take him to Adamant and into the Fade. I will feel terrible.

Do it. First he feels wrong being back, then he has to rationalize to himself that he's different from the Nightmare demon, who picks up on it and taunts him. It was fascinating. (And evil. Yep.)

[Korva]

@Cee: I brought him with me, because I almost always do. (I had Varric instead for the earlier parts of that story arc, hoping he would have extra banters with Hawke. Since they never said a single word to each other, I finally dropped him and went back to my favourite rogue. Joke's on me, apparently the one time Varric and Hawke DO have an extra banter is in the Fade. Still not worth swapping the spirit buddy out, though.) While seeing him so upset hurts, him explicitly having been there instead of the weird "the game kinda-sorta assumes everyone was present for some missions" limbo really helps set up his personal quest with all its fear and urgency.

 

However, it did really bug me that I was not given a chance to comfort him -- or, later on, to reassure him that he is indeed nothing like the Nightmare demon. I don't understand why we only get one companion talk right after the arrival cutscene, even if we have multiple companions who potentially have a banter then. I had Solas and Cole, and Solas was the one to speak up so I only saw Cole's in a video. Sure, being able to ask Solas for a little more advice on what to do is useful ... but trying to calm a panicking friend would have had priority for me.

 

The one that freaked me out the most was in Emprise du Lion when you run over the frozen river and Cole lets everyone know that someone froze to death right there. "It was like falling asleep." ..........Cole.

 

I quickly came to expect sad or thoughtful comments from him, though some still made me wince as well. Like when he remarks on how a red templar who just wanted to make the world safer for his daughter never got to say goodbye before he was corrupted. Or the way the people in the Crestwood mines died. He's painfully good at putting a human face on both victims and enemies who would otherwise be faceless.

 

The one time I did get genuinely freaked out was in Crestwood keep. An awestruck "so many legs" is not enough warning when you see a giant f*ckoff spider divebombing your friends, Cole!

 

About Adamant, I wouldn't be surprised if they just say the Inquisition destroyed it later anyway. At least I hope they do. If Cole of all people says something is irredeemable, probably best for everyone that it disappear. (Like Erimond hahaha)

 

Indeed. I think when Cole gets genuinely upset or is so frank about someone being evil for evil's sake, everyone takes notice because it's so rare. Conversely, his gentleness with post-Revelations Blackwall helped me work out my own anger at that mess.

[Cee]

Do it. First he feels wrong being back, then he has to rationalize to himself that he's different from the Nightmare demon, who picks up on it and taunts him. It was fascinating. (And evil. Yep.)

 

I'll probably do it. I'm just prepared to feel quite bad about it.

[drosophila]

It's not that bad. You can comfort him and he's thankful to you, and if you're evil, tell him to cut it out lol. I always take him, Solas and either Cass or Varric. I like the dialogue they all have together. Plus Cole will talk about the Black City and realize something about himself. Pretty cool stuff!

 

I always take him along as well, I see it as character building, daunting at first, but it helps him grow. Plus, I also always have Solas there as well, and he says a few comforting words. 

[Korva]

Apparently Cassandra, despite the fact that it's quite possible or even likely at this stage of the game that her relationship with Cole has matured from "DEMON!" to "careful affection", only has one very aggressive reaction to Cole's panic in the Fade? That is one thing I wish the game did better -- developing bonds between NPCs aren't acknowledged outside their immediate banter. She does not have a friendly opinion on him when you talk to her in Skyhold once they grow closer, either.

 

Anyway. Does anyone have any suggestions for which songs would fit Cole? Over in this thread about songs for NPCs, drosophila suggested a lovely haunting instumental piece, and I suggested Streets of Philadelphia for his Asunder/pre-Inquisition days. Videos for both are linked in that thread. I keep trying to wring my brain for more appropriate pieces for various companions, but so far I'm coming up empty.

[Phalaenopsis]

There is a song I imagine "our" Cole could have been singing to "the real Cole" as he was holding his hand. It's a rather joyous melody but the lyrics made me think of that moment. And Cole is constantly speaking about "the songs of things" ("their song is different", "Its song still echoes", "their song is too loud", etc...)

 

It's by my favourite French singer and harpist from Brittany Cécile Corbel. She's French but she sings in English sometimes (and Gaelic, and Spanish, and Japanese as it was her who composed the music for Ghibli's "Arrietty").

 

Here are the lyrics:

 

My Lullaby

 

The world is cruel, dust fills the air
Night has come like a veil on the earth
There is a song floating in my mind
A little song I can't get out of my head

And I say la la la...

Goodnight, sweet darling, goodnight, my babe
I'll watch over you, don't be afraid
Always the song floating in my mind
This little song I can't get out of my head

 

 

 

And the song:

[Phalaenopsis]

Over in this thread about songs for NPCs, 

P.S: Forgive me if I'm an absolute noob here but how do you link a page like you did by writing "this thread" for example, as you did, instead of showing the address?

[Korva]

That's a sweet little lullaby. And a versatile artist, with all the languages. Now I wonder if "our" Cole can, or could learn, to sing. He does talk about the song of things quite a lot, doesn't he? It's part of the otherwordliness that I enjoy so much.

 

P.S: Forgive me if I'm an absolute noob here but how do you link a page like you did by writing "this thread" for example, as you did, instead of showing the address?

No need to apologize! Select the bit of text in the message body that you want to anchor the link to ("this thread") and then hit the Link button on the toolbar and fill in the URL there.

[Phalaenopsis]

That's a sweet little lullaby. And a versatile artist, with all the languages. Now I wonder if "our" Cole can, or could learn, to sing. He does talk about the song of things quite a lot, doesn't he? It's part of the otherwordliness that I enjoy so much.

 

No need to apologize! Select the bit of text in the message body that you want to anchor the link to ("this thread") and then hit the Link button on the toolbar and fill in the URL there.

 

Actually Cole does sing in a banter with Cassandra. Well it's more of a humming but there's clearly a melody:

 

• Cole: The frame holds, hand at the waist moves as body and thought spiral
• Cassandra: Cole!
• Cole: Notes drip through the air.
• Cole: [humming]
• Cassandra: That's not the song they were playing.
• Cole: No, but it's your favorite song.

You can hear it here  at 1:28:10

(another thing I can't do: link a video where I want it to start...). Thank you for the tip!

[The Oracle]

Yeah, Blackwall's a funny one. Sometimes his comments that Cole is a danger and isn't to be trusted and then sometimes he says that he's alright and that he may have misjudged him. I'm not sure if the dialogue switch happens based on the Quizzies approval with Cole or if it depends on how far along in the main story arc you currently are. It does make me snort to hear who some of the more suspicious people are of Cole, given what we end up knowing of their own background. Whatever you think of cole, he's upfront from the beginning.

[redbowlingball]

I read the list Patrick Weekes gave for when he was writing Cole (“14 Feels-Inducing, Piano-Heavy Sarah McLachlan Songs”) and downloaded a couple of them. Full of Grace has a lovely Cole-feel to it, I think. 

 

[The Oracle]

I stumbled on Sara McLachlan completely by accident years ago. Don't think she's greatly known in the UK. The fact that I have a playlist very similar to Mr Weekes, with the Once soundtrack and Sara McLachlan sitting high and the odd Hallelujah (Rufus Wainwright though, as it's my favourite version) in the middle, is a bit surprising. Then again, perhaps it's not. I'm very much a piano/guitar&vocals type so finding it done well would narrow down the list of artists to choose from.

[Korva]

Actually Cole does sing in a banter with Cassandra. Well it's more of a humming but there's clearly a melody:

 

I remember that. Poor flustered Cassandra. This is one situtation in which anyone other than Cole would be likely to get punched.

 

(another thing I can't do: link a video where I want it to start...). Thank you for the tip!

 

There's a "get video URL at current time" option when you rightclick on a youtube video. Never used it myself, though.

 

I noticed that too. I remember Blackwall saying Cole was alright and a few banters later he was talking about how he's untrustworthy. It's a bit mixed up.

 

You got the "Cole is dangerous" line after the "I may have misjudged him" one? Interesting. For me, Blackwall switched from the former to the latter after both their personal quests were complete and stayed there. (I forgot to check his opinion after doing Cole's quest but before doing Blackwall's.) I had pretty high approval with Blackwall throughout and maxed Cole early, so I didn't think the change of opinion is approval-based. But if he can flip back, maybe it is.

 

I did notice if Cass' reaction to Cole in Skyhold is "he was right there..." it means she has high approval with the Inquisitor. If she says "if we don't remember him he could be anywhere" she's not on close terms with the Inquisitor.

 

Ah, the first Skyhold cutscene where you can decide to keep Cole or kick him out? I was talking about what she says when you go to her to ask about the other companions and she gives an answer about a random one. She only ever gave me the hostile line about Cole that she starts out with, which is a disappointment ... though near the end of the game, the last times I checked, Cole stopped coming up as a random reply altogether. Given how friendly they can become, she could do with a "middle of the road" and a "(cautiously?) positive" reply. Blackwall at least has that more neutral line, though I'd have liked to see a positive one from him as well.
 

It does make me snort to hear who some of the more suspicious people are of Cole, given what we end up knowing of their own background. Whatever you think of cole, he's upfront from the beginning.

 

Very true.

 

Cole's interactions with Blackwall are some of the most blatant clues that something is off about our "Warden". I wonder how many sleepless nights Blackwall spent worrying, how many times he froze fearing that Cole would spill the big secret. It's likely the biggest reason why he's so slow to warm up to him. For Cole's part, I think he saw right to the heart of the matter in their first (?) conversation. What he reads in Blackwall then is probably related to the dog-story, but Cole's somewhat more terse than usual "You would stop it if you could. That is enough. But don't do it again," likely refers to the Callier massacre too.

 

I wonder if Cass reacts harshly to Cole in the Fade because the time you're implied to head into that quest is earlier than when some play it, or maybe because he was in the Fade and freaking out, she worried he would be corrupted? She's very much a Seeker/Templar when it comes to spirits/demons. I think she wants to wring my Inquisitor's neck in JOH sometimes.

 

One reason why I like Cassandra so much is that she is a Seeker of Truth in a good sense of the word, meaning unwilling to sugarcoat inconvenient facts and able to change her mind even on big issues, given enough proof/motivation. That is definitely part of what makes her interactions with both Cole and Solas so fascinating, and why it's such a letdown that character development like that is not reflected outside of banters. I certainly don't expect her to follow in Solas' footsteps and become a big Fade-fan, or to happily buddy up with every spirit she meets. But a certain new open-mindedness on such matters should become part of her character outside of the banters with these two companions, otherwise you end up with a decidedly immersion-breaking disconnect between two distinct "versions" of the character.

 

Cass likely isn't the best at offering comfort, so I can imagine her snapping "Control yourself!" at Cole in the Fade even from a perspective of being concerned for him, not suspicious of him. But the "demon" bit needs to go.

 

I read the list Patrick Weekes gave for when he was writing Cole (“14 Feels-Inducing, Piano-Heavy Sarah McLachlan Songs”) and downloaded a couple of them. Full of Grace has a lovely Cole-feel to it, I think.

 

I can see why these songs had the described effect on him. Good for us, since he helped him create this wonderful character, even if it was a bit hard on him.

[Sifr]

One reason why I like Cassandra so much is that she is a Seeker of Truth in a good sense of the word, meaning unwilling to sugarcoat inconvenient facts and able to change her mind even on big issues, given enough proof/motivation. That is definitely part of what makes her interactions with both Cole and Solas so fascinating, and why it's such a letdown that character development like that is not reflected outside of banters. I certainly don't expect her to follow in Solas' footsteps and become a big Fade-fan, or to happily buddy up with every spirit she meets. But a certain new open-mindedness on such matters should become part of her character outside of the banters with these two companions, otherwise you end up with a decidedly immersion-breaking disconnect between two distinct "versions" of the character.

 

Yeah, this is also reflected in how she starts both DA2 and Inquisition being utterly convinced that Hawke and the Inquisitor were responsible for everything going wrong, only to slowly come to the realisation that both simply cosmic pawns swept up in events far outside their control.

 

As Solas lampshades at one point, what seperates Cassandra and most other people in authority (especially in the Chantry) is that she's not too proud to admit when she's wrong about something and change her opinion when presented with new information.

[electricfish]

On a wildly different tangent: do you think there are ever times where Cole ever mistakes what someone needs? Where if a person feels a certain way, or thinks of things using certain words that contain double (or triple) meanings depending on the context?

How accurate do you think spirits in general are when attempting to mind read or guess what a person wants most?

 

I think a certain artist will agree that Cole was having a pretty off day. Linking HERE due to potentially NSFW content, even though everyone has clothes on. The image below is the least weird of the three in that Tumblr link, and hopefully gives you some idea that this artist mostly just plays around when she draws silly stuff.

 

[Phalaenopsis]

On a wildly different tangent: do you think there are ever times where Cole ever mistakes what someone needs? Where if a person feels a certain way, or thinks of things using certain words that contain double (or triple) meanings depending on the context?

How accurate do you think spirits in general are when attempting to mind read or guess what a person wants most?

 

Cole seems to fail to read Vivienne at first. In his banter you can hear he offers her protection from the Templars at first but then realises she likes them and doesn't need protection:

• Cole: I am not like that. I can protect you. If Templars come for you, I will kill them.
• Vivienne: Delightful.

and then.

• Vivienne: Cole... you were the Ghost of the Spire.
• Cole: Yes.
• Vivienne: Your murders stirred the Circle into a frenzy. That was what brought the attention of the templars.
• Cole: The templars hurt mages.
• Vivienne: Stupid, panicking mages who became a danger to themselves and others because of you!
• Vivienne: You brought matters in the Spire to a head. Without you, there would be no rebellion.
• Vivienne: Countless deaths are on your head, demon. Are you satisfied with the result of your protection?
• Cole: You're lying. You're... twist the words right, and it will show its true form. Blood or banishment, either will suffice.
• Cole: You like the templars. You think they were right.
• Cole: You don't need to be protected.
• Vivienne: It can learn after all.

 

Sometimes it's not that he makes mistakes but just that he misunderstands what people really need mainly by lack of understanding of the world, its codes or human emotions (with Dorian for example or when he speaks of everyone's sex habits out loud...).

 

 

 

Héhé great comic, Cole could definitely do that!! 

[Korva]

Yeah, this is also reflected in how she starts both DA2 and Inquisition being utterly convinced that Hawke and the Inquisitor were responsible for everything going wrong, only to slowly come to the realisation that both simply cosmic pawns swept up in events far outside their control.

 

It's is one of the most important aspects of her character, I think, and it's a shame when the game fails to reflect such growth outside banters with a specific NPC. That said, it still surprised me how quickly she came around in the beginning of Inquisition. I heard she was meant to be more hostile for longer, but the writers changed that because they didn't want to put people off. I wouldn't have minded her being more guarded/suspicious throughout the tutorial, myself.

 

On a later PT with another Inquisitor he went from liking Cole to disliking him. I have no idea why the banter went so random. Everyone had high approval and personal quests completed.

 

That sounds really weird, yes.

 

Yeah it reminded me that with Cass we see actual dialogue changes showing her feelings for the Inquisitor changing, but with Cole her banter seems inconsistent to main plot dialogue. I feel banter should change with the progression of the main plot, as well as after certain dialogue is spoken or actions happen.

 

Absolutely. Maybe they thought that this sort of development is not worth recording extra lines for since it hinges on totally random banter in a specific party constellation, with an optional character at that. But that does not make it any less immersion-breaking. If you do this sort of thing, you need to do it properly.

 

Cole being more human and being called a demon not to trust by Blackwall seemed way off.

 

Same with the more-spirit path, given how utterly caring Cole is towards Blackwall at a time when many others unsurprisingly treat Blackwall like something the dog puked up. Both paths, at the end of their shared banters, merit a more positive attitude when you ask Blackwall about Cole than just a lukewarm "maybe I was too harsh".

 

On a wildly different tangent: do you think there are ever times where Cole ever mistakes what someone needs? Where if a person feels a certain way, or thinks of things using certain words that contain double (or triple) meanings depending on the context?

How accurate do you think spirits in general are when attempting to mind read or guess what a person wants most?

 

I like this tangent, we do need new things to discuss!
 

While I think Cole operates mainly on emotion -- that is what calls to him and draws him in -- and not thoughts, both hold potential for mixed signals and bewilderment because people often do have conflicting desires, hang-ups or sheer trauma twisting one emotion into another. (1) Like other aspects of the character, the question of how well Cole copes with that likely depends in part on where he is on his personal journey. Early on he is earnest as always, but also more insecure and with less experience under his belt (hat?) when it comes to more complex problems, and thus more fallible. For example, the hot mess with Dorian and his father. There's also a banter with Solas in which Solas states that sometimes what people need is not what they want. (Though what goes unsaid is the risk of dismissing/patronizing the other person's thoughts and feelings because "I know better" .... a lesson that both Solas and Varric could do with at times, and not just regarding Cole.)

 

So overall, I'd say that this is one of the things which Cole gets better at over the course of the game via experience, slowly-growing confidence now that he has a place where he is wanted and people who care for him instead of seeing him as a monster, and eventually the resolution of his quest, which makes him "more" than he was before regardless of the outcome. But even relatively early on, when talking to the healer who just lost a patient and blames herself for it, he shows that he is able to distinguish between what a person strongly feels/wants and what will actually help them. If he couldn't see deeper, he might have tried to tell her something like "you will do better next time, you'll never lose anyone again if you try really hard", might have reinforced that urge to cling to guilt as a way to control the situation instead of acknowleding the scary, bitter truth that some things are out of your control and/or happen without a reason.

 

(1) As an aside and an example of emotion-over-thoughts/words, I was amused by an early banter between Cole and Solas in which Solas tried to deflect Cole's concern for his pain by waffling all philosophical about the vastness of existence and whatnot. Cole sounded neither deterred nor impressed when he insisted that Solas hurts regardless, and Solas was a little too quick to reply that he never said he didn't hurt. I like this because it shows that Cole is hard to bullsh*t when he's got his sights on you, and that even Solas isn't perfect at handling spirits. His later attempt at dodging (more-spirit) Cole's attention by simply thanking him calmly and suggesting that others need him more sounds more successful.

[Sabriel.]

So ready to drag Cole down into the Deep Roads. So. Ready.