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[Korva]

Well, if there was a boss fight against Solas, I'm certain that Cole would still fight alongside the Inquisitor against him. I don't think that your fears have a genuine basis in the sense that Cole would cross over to Solas' side; really, I think Cole just wants to redeem Solas, which is perfectly fine.

 

I'm not debating that. I'm saying that in order to make that work, it absolutely needs to be acknowledged that there is indeed something to redeem Solas from. A whole bloody damn lot of "somethings", in fact. And we should be able to talk to Cole about this.
 

Cole can't read the Inquisitor, because the Anchor is too bright. He has to really concentrate in order to get any sense of what the Inquisitor's emotions are, and even then, it's vague, indistinct, and has more to do with other peoples' expectations than the Inquisitor's actual feelings.

 

He was perfectly capable of helping us with Envy as well as doing that early "reading" -- and that was very early in our time with him, when he was still rather lost and uncertain and not at his best, before we got to know each other and before his gifts either went through the roof or were dulled somewhat but supplemented by more first-hand insight into mortal experiences. And this is Cole, who if not he would push himself to his limits to give comfort when one of his closest friends is hurting and possibly dying in front of his eyes? Noticing that should be easy when he can pick up on obscure trivia like Cassandra's cravings for blueberry pastries or Dorian's fondness for ducks-on-wheels toys.

 

(Plus, that "the Anchor is too bright" has always struck me as a BS excuse for simply not having to worry about writing Cole's powers in the context of the player character, because allowing the protagonist to be more of a character is not exactly high on the agenda. The protagonist provides options for characterization and development to the NPCs by showing interest in them, and they do the same for each other, but we get very little in return. Also, Envy can mess with us and never even mentions the mark getting in the way, and Cole himself can read beings like "bright and brilliant" Solas and "too loud, it hurts to hear" Corypheus, though the stress of battle made that more vague.)

 

According to Weekes:

 

1) Cole knew everything.  He's always known.

2) Solas made him forget how to find it him because he didn't want Cole walking the path with him.

3) ---

4) (not Weekes information - based on what we know from the game/spirit!Cole's comments) While what Solas intends to do is terrible we don't yet know the full picture.

 

Regarding #1, I recall that after Inquisition but before Trespasser, Weekes said that Cole knew who Solas is. That still leaves the question of whether he knew what Solas is planning, which is what I can't reconcile with the character of Cole as we came to know him. He is not an enabler who never draws a line. His early banters with Blackwall suggest that at first he isn't entirely sure what to make of Blackwall and his guilt -- there is one in which he gets quite harsh by his soft-spoken standards. ("You would stop it if you could. That is enough. But don't do it again.") With Solas, whose guilt is so much greater and who, unlike, Blackwall still intends harm, there is no such harshness, no feeling out of whether Solas is a risk, no oblique references to his deeds. He only refers to Solas' sorrow and loss.

 

There are also other pointers that make me feel/hope that Cole didn't know everything. His joy over the Veil not being natural sounds like a new and wondrous realization to him. If he knew of Solas' plans, wouldn't he have long known that already? Solas' words when he makes Cole forget are "I fear that you might see the path I now must walk in solitude forever". To me that doesn't sound like he's just referring to not wanting Cole to find his location, but also that he doesn't want Cole to know what he is about to do. Pah, we really should have been able to ask him about Solas back then as well, because Solas' words are so obviously ominous and up-to-no-good.

 

Regarding #4, there is no acknowledgement from Cole that is is terrible. Again, that is the big problem. Dropping bombshells on the player and then not allowing us to talk about them, especially with the one being who could offer more insight and might have a lot to answer for if he knew everything yet said nothing, is really frustrating.

[Korva]

Hi guys! Dropping in! We're not spoiler tagging, are we?

 

Hello. And not much tags anymore, no.

 

Trespasser made me want to have spirit Cole 

I don't find anything wrong with human Cole finding a girlfriend, per say, but it was a bit of a shock.

I had always hoped that Cole would be the companion that would transfer over to DA4 (since Dragon Age does this with every game)

 

My hope was for another game as Inquisitor and with Cole as a recurring companion, or for Cole to be allowed to stay with the Inquisitor. Platonic bonds get so little love from the writers, and he (more-human and more-spirit both) struck me as the perfect candidate for a true and enduring friendship, at least for Inquisitors who don't just want to retire and not give a toss about people and helping anymore.

 

but I find that really unlikely now that I notice just how different Cole is coming. Who knows, in a few decades he might not even have any spirit-like abilities and just be a normal man. Although I like to think he'd always hold onto a part of his origins.

 

I hope so too.

 

With all the revelations about Solas in Trespasser I'm left wondering what he was thinking when he saw how human Cole was becoming.

 

One undeniably good thing about Solas is that he truly shows care and acceptance for Cole no matter what -- unlike Varric who really struggles if he doesn't get what he wants from Cole's personal quest. I hear that there are hints in Trespasser that what Cole did may not have been as unique in the old days, but with the Veil up, Solas probably worries that its presence would make more-human-Cole lose more of his old self. And that when the Veil comes down, there may not be enough of that old self left to save him.

 

On the other hand, the shock of the Veil coming down and bombarding more-spirit-Cole and other Compassion-spirits with the terror, suffering and death of millions might have a terrible effect on them, too ...

[MidnightWolf]

I'm a huge Cole fan. He's my most favourite character from the entire DA series, books included. But this whole Solas plot, stinks. And after Tresspasser, it seems to me that the writers are simply trying to get rid of Cole.
1) If he's Spirit, he goes into the fade yes? If Solas rips it down.....who's to say the Spirits won't be 'killed' too?
2) If he's more Human, surely the Veil disappearing would kill him in some respect too?

This whole story arch stinks. And I'm very unhappy with the way it 'seems' to be going.....at least for Cole.

[Xilizhra]

I'm not debating that. I'm saying that in order to make that work, it absolutely needs to be acknowledged that there is indeed something to redeem Solas from. A whole bloody damn lot of "somethings", in fact. And we should be able to talk to Cole about this.

Perhaps. It might show up in the next game.

 

 

He was perfectly capable of helping us with Envy as well as doing that early "reading" -- and that was very early in our time with him, when he was still rather lost and uncertain and not at his best, before we got to know each other and before his gifts either went through the roof or were dulled somewhat but supplemented by more first-hand insight into mortal experiences. And this is Cole, who if not he would push himself to his limits to give comfort when one of his closest friends is hurting and possibly dying in front of his eyes? Noticing that should be easy when he can pick up on obscure trivia like Cassandra's cravings for blueberry pastries or Dorian's fondness for ducks-on-wheels toys.

 

(Plus, that "the Anchor is too bright" has always struck me as a BS excuse for simply not having to worry about writing Cole's powers in the context of the player character, because allowing the protagonist to be more of a character is not exactly high on the agenda. The protagonist provides options for characterization and development to the NPCs by showing interest in them, and they do the same for each other, but we get very little in return. Also, Envy can mess with us and never even mentions the mark getting in the way, and Cole himself can read beings like "bright and brilliant" Solas and "too loud, it hurts to hear" Corypheus, though the stress of battle made that more vague.)

I haven't played Champions of the Just, so I can't comment on that. However, isn't it possible that the recent flareups of the Anchor are making it even harder for Cole to read the Inquisitor?

 

 

On the other hand, the shock of the Veil coming down and bombarding more-spirit-Cole and other Compassion-spirits with the terror, suffering and death of millions might have a terrible effect on them, too ...

That assumes that there would be any terror or suffering. It might be instantaneous annihilation, in a flash.

[NeverlandHunter]

 

I'm not debating that. I'm saying that in order to make that work, it absolutely needs to be acknowledged that there is indeed something to redeem Solas from. A whole bloody damn lot of "somethings", in fact. And we should be able to talk to Cole about this.
 

 

He was perfectly capable of helping us with Envy as well as doing that early "reading" -- and that was very early in our time with him, when he was still rather lost and uncertain and not at his best, before we got to know each other and before his gifts either went through the roof or were dulled somewhat but supplemented by more first-hand insight into mortal experiences. And this is Cole, who if not he would push himself to his limits to give comfort when one of his closest friends is hurting and possibly dying in front of his eyes? Noticing that should be easy when he can pick up on obscure trivia like Cassandra's cravings for blueberry pastries or Dorian's fondness for ducks-on-wheels toys. 

 

(Plus, that "the Anchor is too bright" has always struck me as a BS excuse for simply not having to worry about writing Cole's powers in the context of the player character, because allowing the protagonist to be more of a character is not exactly high on the agenda. The protagonist provides options for characterization and development to the NPCs by showing interest in them, and they do the same for each other, but we get very little in return. Also, Envy can mess with us and never even mentions the mark getting in the way, and Cole himself can read beings like "bright and brilliant" Solas and "too loud, it hurts to hear" Corypheus, though the stress of battle made that more vague.)

 

 

Regarding #1, I recall that after Inquisition but before Trespasser, Weekes said that Cole knew who Solas is. That still leaves the question of whether he knew what Solas is planning, which is what I can't reconcile with the character of Cole as we came to know him. He is not an enabler who never draws a line. His early banters with Blackwall suggest that at first he isn't entirely sure what to make of Blackwall and his guilt -- there is one in which he gets quite harsh by his soft-spoken standards. ("You would stop it if you could. That is enough. But don't do it again.") With Solas, whose guilt is so much greater and who, unlike, Blackwall still intends harm, there is no such harshness, no feeling out of whether Solas is a risk, no oblique references to his deeds. He only refers to Solas' sorrow and loss.

 

There are also other pointers that make me feel/hope that Cole didn't know everything. His joy over the Veil not being natural sounds like a new and wondrous realization to him. If he knew of Solas' plans, wouldn't he have long known that already? Solas' words when he makes Cole forget are "I fear that you might see the path I now must walk in solitude forever". To me that doesn't sound like he's just referring to not wanting Cole to find his location, but also that he doesn't want Cole to know what he is about to do. Pah, we really should have been able to ask him about Solas back then as well, because Solas' words are so obviously ominous and up-to-no-good.

 

Regarding #4, there is no acknowledgement from Cole that is is terrible. Again, that is the big problem. Dropping bombshells on the player and then not allowing us to talk about them, especially with the one being who could offer more insight and might have a lot to answer for if he knew everything yet said nothing, is really frustrating.

I agree with a lot of what you had to say! It is terribly frustrating that we don't get to talk to Cole about Solas and that we were conveniently too bright to read.

You made good points on why Cole may not have knew everything. If Cole knew Solas was going to hurt so many people I feel like he would have done something. Although, at least for a romanced Solas, Solas does seem to question his mission and maybe Cole picked up on that? Cole's powers are obviously not infallible though, you can see that with a "sacrificed Chargers" Qunari Iron Bull. He didn't pick up on anything from Bull that would have led him to stop him or warn us.

Hello.   And not much tags anymore, no.

 

 

My hope was for another game as Inquisitor and with Cole as a recurring companion, or for Cole to be allowed to stay with the Inquisitor. Platonic bonds get so little love from the writers, and he (more-human and more-spirit both) struck me as the perfect candidate for a true and enduring friendship, at least for Inquisitors who don't just want to retire and not give a toss about people and helping anymore.

 

 

I hope so too.

 

 

One undeniably good thing about Solas is that he truly shows care and acceptance for Cole no matter what -- unlike Varric who really struggles if he doesn't get what he wants from Cole's personal quest. I hear that there are hints in Trespasser that what Cole did may not have been as unique in the old days, but with the Veil up, Solas probably worries that its presence would make more-human-Cole lose more of his old self. And that when the Veil comes down, there may not be enough of that old self left to save him.

 

On the other hand, the shock of the Veil coming down and bombarding more-spirit-Cole and other Compassion-spirits with the terror, suffering and death of millions might have a terrible effect on them, too ...

That would be really nice, but with both of the epilogue endings for Cole I really doubt this. On one he's with his lady love, the other he's back in the Fade, I think at the most we'll get a letter or message from him in DA4. It's definitely sad for an Inquisitor who befriended Cole, he was so lost and in need of guidance and friendship in the beginning and now he doesn't need her/him.

 

In Varric's defense other than Solas he was the first to welcome Cole. The other companions needed time and convincing to see that Cole friendly (and still not all of them saw that). One of the amazing things about Varric is that he's willing to accept almost anyone regardless of their past or who they are. He may have wanted Cole more human, but that is because that's what Varric knew. Plus, given the Justice situation you can't blame him for feeling that Cole would be better of human.

 

Yeah... I want to know what the extent of Solas's plan will have on the known world. I just watched the video on a low approval elf asking to help Solas, she said something like "I would give my life to see the elves restored" and he replied with something like "Would you give the lives of all your friends and everyone you ever knew?"

The all kind of implies that Cole would be effected too.

[Korva]

However, isn't it possible that the recent flareups of the Anchor are making it even harder for Cole to read the Inquisitor?

 

That would also make it even easier to see how badly off and probably in need of a little TLC the Inquisitor is. I'm not asking him to delve deeply enough to pick up on and heal some obscure childhood boo-boo, but to notice and care about a friend's very obvious and potentially ultimately fatal suffering, in some way that shows 1) his character-defining compassion and 2) the strength of this friendship.

 

That assumes that there would be any terror or suffering. It might be instantaneous annihilation, in a flash.

 

Isn't it implied pretty heavily that there will indeed be terror and chaos? The way the Veil went up was apparently traumatic, so I imagine its destruction would be the same. I saw a video of the Inquisitor talking to spirit caretakers of the library in the Fade, and when asked to remember that time, the spirit is so swept away in the anguish of the memories that Cole, too, gets extremely distressed and pleads with it to stop so it doesn't hurt itself further.

 

Apparently, Cole also mentions that many spirits have fled deeply into the Fade because they are afraid of the Veil tearing again. Something is happening, and it terrifies them. Solas doesn't want a repeat of the rifts that hurt so many spirits, but he also doesn't want to hurt people yet still does it, so I guess even knowing that he's going to harm spirits as well would only grieve but not stop him.

 

I'm a huge Cole fan. He's my most favourite character from the entire DA series, books included.

 

It's always good to see more people who like him.

 

But this whole Solas plot, stinks. And after Tresspasser, it seems to me that the writers are simply trying to get rid of Cole.

 

I really do not like the way he is used in the DLC when it comes to being the myopically pro-Solas author's mouthpiece. And yes, it's weird that the character who has the single most deep and meaningful connection with Solas apart from the Inquisitor isn't explicitly set up to be a returning character. (With more-spirit Cole, the epilogue probably implies it, but with more-human-Cole, the threat of Solas is completely ignored as it is for more epilogue sliders.) The Inquisitor should to be the one to finish Solas' arc, IMO, because of the absolutely sublime way Bioware used Inquisition to build up Solas himself as well as his ties to the Inquisitor -- and Cole needs to be there as well, regardless of the outcome of his quest.

[Korva]

I agree with a lot of what you had to say! It is terribly frustrating that we don't get to talk to Cole about Solas and that we were conveniently too bright to read.

 

Thanks. I love this character to bits, but there are definitely aspects of his writing that are lacking, especially now.

 

You made good points on why Cole may not have knew everything. If Cole knew Solas was going to hurt so many people I feel like he would have done something. Although, at least for a romanced Solas, Solas does seem to question his mission and maybe Cole picked up on that?

 

Over on page 2 of the "Solas and Companions" thread, someone pointed out a romance-only banter in which that indeed happens, and Cole comes within a hair of spilling the whole plan before Solas apparently stops him from seeing and revealing it all. If the "forget" we walk in back in Skyhold after the end of the game isn't the first and only time Solas has meddled with Cole's mind, it would help explain why Cole never said anything. (It would also explain why Solas fully and passionately supports Cole's presence and purpose, even though he must have known from the start that Cole might discover his secrets.) i just refuse to believe that the embodiment of Compassion of all people would, essentially, tacitly support Solas' plans.

 

Cole's powers are obviously not infallible though, you can see that with a "sacrificed Chargers" Qunari Iron Bull. He didn't pick up on anything from Bull that would have led him to stop him or warn us.

 

True, though that version of Bull was essentially handed back to his masters on a silver platter by the Inquisitor, most likely thoroughly re-brainwashed to the point where he was little more than the "drone" Solas accused him of being, and as a result simply didn't feel any regret or guilt at betraying us, nothing that Cole could have picked up on. ("I didn't feel it. There wasn't any pain".)

 

Solas on the other hand is a mess of emotion and probably needs to actively focus on keeping the worst parts of himself hidden away. An early banter has Cole remark on the fact that Solas is "quiet inside" and that Cole doesn't "hear his hurt as much". That's pretty poignant considering the immense weight of guilt and loss that Solas carries.

 

That would be really nice, but with both of the epilogue endings for Cole I really doubt this. On one he's with his lady love, the other he's back in the Fade, I think at the most we'll get a letter or message from him in DA4. It's definitely sad for an Inquisitor who befriended Cole, he was so lost and in need of guidance and friendship in the beginning and now he doesn't need her/him.

 

Yes. We don't get anything personal or bonding moments with him, and then he's off. As I said, he really should be there for the resolution of Solas' arc, at least. Bioware is known for ignoring epilogues as it suits them, so maybe there is hope, but given the way the Cole was used in Trespasser I ... just wonder if they don't see him as important or meaningful anymore, despite his strong ties to both Solas and the Inquisitor. He always was an optional character to begin with, so between that and his diverging personal path, maybe the writers consider him too complex/difficult to write into the culmination of Solas' story.

 

In Varric's defense other than Solas he was the first to welcome Cole. The other companions needed time and convincing to see that Cole friendly (and still not all of them saw that). One of the amazing things about Varric is that he's willing to accept almost anyone regardless of their past or who they are. He may have wanted Cole more human, but that is because that's what Varric knew. Plus, given the Justice situation you can't blame him for feeling that Cole would be better of human.

 

Varric has seen plenty of humans and other mortals go bad too, though. He's never had a positive experience with anything Fade-related, so I can understand him in a way, but I was never really comfortable with how he seems to accept the young man Cole appears to be while ignoring or pushing back against the spirit-nature (except when he sees it as useful to himself). While it's a very understandable and likely realistic reaction, I was hoping for a little more from him after the spirit-side outcome of the quest, eventually. And I really wanted to be able to call him out on that "could have been a person" remark.

 

Still, while Varric isn't exactly my favourite, I don't dislike him either and accept that he's supposed to be a close and good friend to Cole. I just think that Solas -- despite the gigantic can of worms that he is -- does better at showing support and acceptance no matter what.

[BloodKaiden]

"Solas, bright and sad, observes and accepts. Spirit self, seeing the soul, Solas, but somehow sorrows." - Cole talking about how his mind works to the Inquisitor.

I doubt he knew of Solas's plan yet knows what he is. I'm replaying my canon play with James and knowing what I know now(haven't played Trespasser yet personally) I will be paying extra attention to everything Cole says.

[NeverlandHunter]

Thanks. I love this character to bits, but there are definitely aspects of his writing that are lacking, especially now.

 

 

Over on page 2 of the "Solas and Companions" thread, someone pointed out a romance-only banter in which that indeed happens, and Cole comes within a hair of spilling the whole plan before Solas apparently stops him from seeing and revealing it all. If the "forget" we walk in back in Skyhold after the end of the game isn't the first and only time Solas has meddled with Cole's mind, it would help explain why Cole never said anything. (It would also explain why Solas fully and passionately supports Cole's presence and purpose, even though he must have known from the start that Cole might discover his secrets.) i just refuse to believe that the embodiment of Compassion of all people would, essentially, tacitly support Solas' plans.

 

 

True, though that version of Bull was essentially handed back to his masters on a silver platter by the Inquisitor, most likely thoroughly re-brainwashed to the point where he was little more than the "drone" Solas accused him of being, and as a result simply didn't feel any regret or guilt at betraying us, nothing that Cole could have picked up on. ("I didn't feel it. There wasn't any pain".)

 

Solas on the other hand is a mess of emotion and probably needs to actively focus on keeping the worst parts of himself hidden away. An early banter has Cole remark on the fact that Solas is "quiet inside" and that Cole doesn't "hear his hurt as much". That's pretty poignant considering the immense weight of guilt and loss that Solas carries.

 

 

Yes. We don't get anything personal or bonding moments with him, and then he's off. As I said, he really should be there for the resolution of Solas' arc, at least. Bioware is known for ignoring epilogues as it suits them, so maybe there is hope, but given the way the Cole was used in Trespasser I ... just wonder if they don't see him as important or meaningful anymore, despite his strong ties to both Solas and the Inquisitor. He always was an optional character to begin with, so between that and his diverging personal path, maybe the writers consider him too complex/difficult to write into the culmination of Solas' story.

 

 

Varric has seen plenty of humans and other mortals go bad too, though. He's never had a positive experience with anything Fade-related, so I can understand him in a way, but I was never really comfortable with how he seems to accept the young man Cole appears to be while ignoring or pushing back against the spirit-nature (except when he sees it as useful to himself). While it's a very understandable and likely realistic reaction, I was hoping for a little more from him after the spirit-side outcome of the quest, eventually. And I really wanted to be able to call him out on that "could have been a person" remark.

 

Still, while Varric isn't exactly my favourite, I don't dislike him either and accept that he's supposed to be a close and good friend to Cole. I just think that Solas -- despite the gigantic can of worms that he is -- does better at showing support and acceptance no matter what.

I agree!

 

 

I really don't think we'll get anything more than a cameo but I hope I'm wrong

 

 

Varric defense reflexes activated!

Varric still calls Cole kid and banters with him after he's turned more spirit though. He understands what he understands, Varric sees people for the people they truly are and the good they can do. Spirits are just out of his realm of knowledge, and yes he sees spirits as < to people, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It takes my Inquisitor a lot of time to appreciate spirits in the way Solas does and even after all that she still probably values people life more. 

I think Varric is awesome! He gave Cole a (what should of been Cole's) choice, instead of Cole just having to become more spirit. As Blackwall said Varric sort of adopted Cole, he tried to show him the ropes.  

I don't know, I just love Cole and Varric's relationship, minus Solas's it might be my favorite.

[Korva]

"Solas, bright and sad, observes and accepts. Spirit self, seeing the soul, Solas, but somehow sorrows." - Cole talking about how his mind works to the Inquisitor.

I doubt he knew of Solas's plan yet knows what he is.

 

Agreed. That's what I hope, at least. And damn, I love his lines and James Norton's sublime voice acting. Now I wonder if "spirit self" is another hint that, as some seem to believe, Solas was a spirit made flesh himself and got stuck as such. What does he "accept", though? That he was wrong about some of his biases?

 

Varric defense reflexes activated!

 

 

Varric still calls Cole kid and banters with him after he's turned more spirit though. He understands what he understands, Varric sees people for the people they truly are and the good they can do. Spirits are just out of his realm of knowledge, and yes he sees spirits as < to people, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It takes my Inquisitor a lot of time to appreciate spirits in the way Solas does and even after all that she still probably values people life more.

 

I don't think anyone can fully appreciate them as Solas does, not even the Avvar, but I wish Varric would have shown more signs of trying. The one banter they have after the quest, in which Varric is still clearly uncrtain, could do with a follow-up to show that. I think Varric is afraid of losing this Cole, and I wish Solas or my Inquisitor could have told him that's hardly likely to happen unless Varric's inability to come to terms with Cole's spirit-side becomes a pain that Cole can't heal -- in which case pulling away from Varric to if not heal that pain then at least stop renewing it might be the only real option. And I don't think either Varric or Cole would want that at all.

 

I think Varric is awesome! He gave Cole a (what should of been Cole's) choice, instead of Cole just having to become more spirit. As Blackwall said Varric sort of adopted Cole, he tried to show him the ropes.  

I don't know, I just love Cole and Varric's relationship, minus Solas's it might be my favorite.

 

Some of Varric's behavior towards Cole pushes some ugly personal buttons for me, which I don't think is intentional on the writer's part because it's not treated as something we can call him out for (though it should be). And I like Cole's banters with Varric the least of the companions I like and use (Cassandra, Solas, Dorian and Blackwall plus these two) because they feel rather one-sided to me, if that is the right word. It gives me "Varric is always right and never needs anything" vibes, like the writers treated him with special kid gloves so as not to challenge him or acknowledge that he does have weak spots that he should confront and issues that could use a compassionate touch.

 

But as I said, I accept that he's supposed to be a good friend for Cole, and while he doesn't really do it for me as a character, I do appreciate that he is very much a team player who tries to get along with pretty much everyone, sincerely cares for people and their plights, and is kind of the "morale officer" of the group. Few things annoy me faster and harder in a companion than them actively butting heads with everyone around them and trying to assert their "superiority". Despite a few flaws of his own, Varric is pretty much the opposite of that, and that is very welcome -- and likely also one primary reason why Cole likes him.

[Xilizhra]

Which personal buttons does Varric's treatment of Cole press, if I may ask?

[nightscrawl]

The Inquisitor should to be the one to finish Solas' arc, IMO, because of the absolutely sublime way Bioware used Inquisition to build up Solas himself as well as his ties to the Inquisitor...

Digressing from Cole just a tad to agree with this. If the Solas story arc is carried over into DA4 I think it would be absurd to not have the Inquisitor be the one to finish it off. However, that goes against their statement that, "Dragon Age is not Mass Effect, never was, and never will be," and their continued adherence to a new protagonist every game (which I prefer).

 

So what exactly are they going to do then? Kill off the Inquisitor in-between games? Have them be hanging out with their LI? If it's Dorian that will be problematic if he's in the next installment -- suggested by the final scene.

 

Honestly, in moments like this I just have to throw my hands in their air and shout, "Who the hell knows?" because I sure don't.

[axlorg89]

Seems like a good place to camp -sets tent-

[Korva]

Stay a while and listen. Do you (or does anyone) have any new thoughts or other topics about our favourite compassionate friend?

[rowrow]

Digressing from Cole just a tad to agree with this. If the Solas story arc is carried over into DA4 I think it would be absurd to not have the Inquisitor be the one to finish it off. However, that goes against their statement that, "Dragon Age is not Mass Effect, never was, and never will be," and their continued adherence to a new protagonist every game (which I prefer).

 

So what exactly are they going to do then? Kill off the Inquisitor in-between games? Have them be hanging out with their LI? If it's Dorian that will be problematic if he's in the next installment -- suggested by the final scene.

 

Honestly, in moments like this I just have to throw my hands in their air and shout, "Who the hell knows?" because I sure don't.

 

I'm guessing that the Inquisitor will show up as a helpful NPC like Hawke did. There are only four voices, so if the character creator also allows four races again (though maybe we shouldn't assume that) it probably wouldn't be that hard to do.

 

Sigh, as much as it would kill me not to see this through as my Lavellan, I don't see it happening. The two possible starting scenarios are too different. Imagine still having access to the Inquisition, your armies and all your war table resources in one outcome and operating as an underground group in the other. If the Inquisitor is the PC, you'd almost be playing two different games from the start. Wouldn't you? Unless, say, the Inquisition gets crippled or destroyed early on and you have to work with severely diminished resources anyway. I disbanded happily, so I wouldn't mind that, but those who made the decision to keep the Inquisition presumably would.

 

Still, I can't see the Inquisitor not involving themselves in the fight in a major way. They're in a better position to understand Solas' weaknesses and motivations than most. And they certainly wouldn't let the loss of a hand hinder them too much.

[BraveVesperia]

I didn't want to check in this thread until I played Trespasser with both spirit and human Cole. I still haven't gotten the scene with Krem (Bull's quest was incomplete so Zither showed up). Reading through, it looks like I had a similar reaction to most people!

 

I spoiler-tagged my thoughts because rambling. 

Spoiler

General dialogue

I really liked his comments as we explored on quests. Especially as a spirit, he perceives more things than as a human (this was true in the Descent too). Though one of his human side banters seems to be bugged. His happiness at discovery in the Veil is false was very sweet. I also thought it was funny and so-very-Cole to say a friendly 'hello' to the archivists fear demons. The 'wisdom from Compassion' line was wonderful. I love seeing Cole help other spirits as well as mortals. 

 

Cutscene

I would've liked more opportunity to bond with Cole. All the other companions had a great bonding moment that was centred more on their relationship with the Inquisitor than anything else. Some were even focused more on the Inquisitor than themselves (e.g Cass and Viv). Cole's starts off well, helping someone and telling us about how it works now. Then he sees Maryden and walks off. "Oh. Okay. We're done talking then?" Even on the spirit path, his scene is focused around her. We learn very little of how becoming more human or spirit has effected him.He's the perfect character to talk to the Inquisitor about their hand-problems and fears for the future. Unfortunately, it doesn't come up. He doesn't even get non-cutscene conversations, just a string of shout-outs.

 

I have to admit, I find the romantic pairing... weird. Sure he's becoming more human, but not every human wants a relationship. It's not a given. I think someone less or more well-known might have been a better fit if the romance was necessary. The former because you could headcanon her personality. The latter because we would know her well enough to have a strong opinion on whether she fits Cole. I don't remember the bard being as sweet as Cole says, but her only personality-defining moment (besides Sera's 'creepy song') is her war table quest. In that, I distinctly remember her telling Cullen to do something not-so-nice with his sword. So yeah. I prefered the spirit-side matchmaker scene, but it still has too little Cole/Inky bonding.

 

Ending Slides

These felt a bit weird in general because of the whole 'Solas is trying to end the world' thing. But I like Cole's ending slides. If he's more human, he's going to find people who are hurting and Maryden'll help. Assuming she's not having another bard's tongue cut out or telling people to fall on their sword.   His spirit ending is even better for me, because he's able to return to the Fade. Being cut off from the Fade was such a hugely negative deal for Justice that I feel like it would be beneficial for Cole (as a spirit) to return there sometimes. It definitely doesn't stop him returning to help people directly.

 

Other companions

There wasn't much noteworthy from Varric (as far as I remember), but I did like his mention of Cole helping people in Kirkwall. Sera seemed less hostile, more unsure. I haven't tried Iron Bull or Vivienne yet (I don't have a playthrough where they're paired with Cole).

 

Cassandra and Cole's little banters were terribly sweet. I like that they were postive about adventuring together again. They have my favourite friendship, so it's good to know it's steadfast. Especially when Cass is having a really bad run with her friendships breaking down (first 'Blackwall', then Solas, potentially Qun Iron Bull and Divine Vivienne).

 

Thom Rainier and spirit Cole are possible one of my favourite things in Trespasser. My opinion of Rainier has really gone up with this dlc. Cole's little affirmations that he's doing the right thing and is appreciated were so lovely. And Rainier shows positive interest in Cole's life (even if he doesn't quite get it sometimes!). On my last PT, he wasn't a Warden and the ending slide stated that he visits prisons to reach out to the people there. Knowing how Cole feels about incarceration, I think they should work together. Travel the world helping people. As a side dish to stopping Solas. 

 

I liked that Cole showed up for Dorian's leaving party, even if he had no lines. However, I had my first ever experience of being annoyed and angry at him. He was talking in the great library, Dorian made a comment and Cole said "I wish Solas were here, he understands." Now, I know Solas understands spirits more. And he's Cole's friend. But so are Dorian and Cassandra! So is my Inquisitor! I think that's such a thoughtless comment to make to a friend. It was good to hear Dorian reply (paraphrased) "Well, he's not. He left." in a slightly salty tone. It just seemed so petulant and insensitive of Cole.

 

And speaking of Solas...I find the idea that Cole knew his plans all along very troubling. Solas' identity, sure, but not his plans. Unless Cole discovered them shortly before Solas removed the memory/knowledge from him. I don't think Cole would sit idly by if he knew that Solas wanted to kill everyone. I found some of his comments in Trespasser a little trying, especially the line "Solas doesn't want to hurt anyone, he's not that kind of wolf". Sure, Cole would be sympathetic to Solas' internal struggle and situation. But that isn't more important than the suffering of literally everyone else. Ah, I really wish we could get some comments from the companions after finding out the truth of Solas' plan.

I think that covers just about everything!

[Korva]

His happiness at discovery in the Veil is false was very sweet. I also thought it was funny and so-very-Cole to say a friendly 'hello' to the archivists fear demons. The 'wisdom from Compassion' line was wonderful. I love seeing Cole help other spirits as well as mortals. 

 

Absolutely. It's good to see another spirit reply positively to him, too. I'm still annoyed at Command for rudely brushing him off. And that happy little "hello" makes my day.

 

He's the perfect character to talk to the Inquisitor about their hand-problems and fears for the future. Unfortunately, it doesn't come up. He doesn't even get non-cutscene conversations, just a string of shout-outs.

 

Yeah ... as I said, it's a sign of how our character isn't really a character, and in combination with Cole it's especially sad.

 

I have to admit, I find the romantic pairing... weird. Sure he's becoming more human, but not every human wants a relationship. It's not a given.

 

Thank you. He was an extremely rare potential opportunity to an see aromantic/asexual character, a positive one at that, and I know I'm not the only one for whom having that twisted inside out was a kick in the guts. Blatant asexuality erasure is bad enough in general, but feels that much worse when it's attached to character that we could hope might have been "one of us". It's a "NO H*MO, SEE!!!!!" equivalent and one huge reason why I'm glad the spirit path is my canon.

 

Throwing in a "love interest" out of the blue is one of the laziest excuses for actual character development as far as I'm concerned -- for both parties. It's annoying both because Maryden has shown no signs of being a kind person, and because she's passed around like candy. Cole, Krem, Zither, any dude will do. As good as it is to potentially have a trans man find acceptance in a relationship, it just feels ... cheap towards her.

 

There wasn't much noteworthy from Varric (as far as I remember), but I did like his mention of Cole helping people in Kirkwall.

 

So that comes up regardless of Cole's development? Good, Varric interacting with more-spirit Cole without giving off "this is weird" vibes is pretty important in the context of showing real friendship.

 

Cassandra and Cole's little banters were terribly sweet. I like that they were postive about adventuring together again. They have my favourite friendship, so it's good to know it's steadfast. Especially when Cass is having a really bad run with her friendships breaking down (first 'Blackwall', then Solas, potentially Qun Iron Bull and Divine Vivienne).

 

Ouch, good point. And Cass is not someone who forms friendships easily in the first place, so that worst-case scenario would no doubt hurt her deeply. I'd hope she and Blackwall have reconciled at this point, but I recall no new post-base-game interactions between them to show whether or not that is true.

 

Thom Rainier and spirit Cole are possible one of my favourite things in Trespasser. My opinion of Rainier has really gone up with this dlc. Cole's little affirmations that he's doing the right thing and is appreciated were so lovely. And Rainier shows positive interest in Cole's life (even if he doesn't quite get it sometimes!)

 

Rainier's non-Warden ending actually left a big lump in my throat and all I could think was "Cole must be so proud of him". It's one of the few things in Trespasser that I genuinely like -- that, and the fact that he resumed using his real name. Also, his story about blowing up a lake of oil and accidentally creating the mother of all blazes in the Deep Roads was hilarious. He does get into a lot of trouble.

 

I only watched some videos so I may have missed something, but what are the interactions between the two that you like?

 

However, I had my first ever experience of being annoyed and angry at him. He was talking in the great library, Dorian made a comment and Cole said "I wish Solas were here, he understands." Now, I know Solas understands spirits more. And he's Cole's friend. But so are Dorian and Cassandra! So is my Inquisitor! I think that's such a thoughtless comment to make to a friend. It was good to hear Dorian reply (paraphrased) "Well, he's not. He left." in a slightly salty tone. It just seemed so petulant and insensitive of Cole.

 

Yeah ... I really loved seeing his joy at the discovery that the Veil is not natural, but that heavily implied "ONLY Solas understands me, ONLY Solas doesn't think I'm a wrong thing" is complete BS from the writer. Cole has friends who respect and love him as he is, even if they don't understand him perfectly. It's such a contrast to the lines from the dinner cutscene in which he expresses similar joy and gratitude towards the Inquisitor. I had high hopes that Trespasser would recapture the feeling of that scene, but instead it ignored the bond with the Inquisitor altogether in favor of using Cole to push a very unsubtle "Solas is a good guy and the only one who matters" message.

 

And speaking of Solas...I find the idea that Cole knew his plans all along very troubling. Solas' identity, sure, but not his plans. Unless Cole discovered them shortly before Solas removed the memory/knowledge from him. I don't think Cole would sit idly by if he knew that Solas wanted to kill everyone. I found some of his comments in Trespasser a little trying, especially the line "Solas doesn't want to hurt anyone, he's not that kind of wolf". Sure, Cole would be sympathetic to Solas' internal struggle and situation. But that isn't more important than the suffering of literally everyone else.

 

100% agreement. That is what upset me more than anything about Trespasser, because it would completely pervert this character if he knew everything but said nothing. He deserves better than just being a tool for pushing a pro-Solas agenda.

[The Oracle]

As to Varric and Solas's reactions after Cole was changed, from playing both sides I can see no great difference to how they treated Cole afterwards. Varric continues to chat to him as usual during banters and Blackwall still makes comments about Varric having adopted him, Solas continues to talk to him and inquire about his change.

 

I view Varric's "Could have been a human." and Solas's "Well at least he's not completely changed." as being similar in that they're both unhappy that their opinion was trumped and that they both see either his human or spirit side, respectively, as better. Varric feels the loss of some of his warmth and Solas seems surprised that becoming human doesn't mean an automatic loss of compassion. After this, they just seem to go back to caring for Cole, as is in character for them both.

[Xilizhra]

So, I apologize if this question is too blunt, but how does one make Cole not suck in combat? Preferably without breaking canon by making him into an archer. The AI just doesn't seem like it can handle double daggers.

[Korva]

Blunt but sadly true. The AI is awful with dagger rogues, and even though I manually control everything I rarely manage to get Cole to flank because melee characters shuffle around so much and always seem to want to clump together in front of the enemy. You absolutely want a guard on hit masterwork as your #1 priority, the higher the better. Walking Fortress on hit is also a good choice for one of the remaining masterwork slots. Those two made all the difference between "potion-chugging liability" and "actually viable in melee" for me.

[Xilizhra]

Ah, thanks. I also seem to remember some amulet that gives a rogue a sizable attack boost in exchange for removing all flanking bonuses... maybe Cole should have that.

 

Anyway, regarding Cole and sexuality, I actually don't think that asexuality as a plot point could have worked with Cole, because unless the game really tried to hammer it into your head, it'd just seem like he hadn't completely transitioned from his spirit state. Even then, I doubt it'd help any issues with asexual erasure if the one in the game thus far was a mutated spirit.

[rowrow]

So, I apologize if this question is too blunt, but how does one make Cole not suck in combat? Preferably without breaking canon by making him into an archer. The AI just doesn't seem like it can handle double daggers.

 

I couldn't use Cole much at all until I started giving him Life Drain (heal-on-kill) gear, either rings or daggers. This works well with his high damage, since if he's the one getting most of the killing blows in, he's also getting lots of free heals. Guard-on-hit gear is also great. Also, fully upgraded stealth, and the one passive talent (in the Assassin tree, I believe) which finishes cooldown on stealth instantly whenever he kills someone. I didn't have to babysit him so much after that.

[HurraFTP]

@Xilizhra: The AI handles parry quite well too. Also, in the sabotage tree, "leeching poison" (heal on hit when active) and "Lost in the mist" (gives your party "elusive stacks") are good too.

The only downside is that the visual and sound effect of the elusive stacks follows you at Skyhold and that can be a bit unnerving.

[Korva]

@The Oracle: I don't agree, but I guess the whole relationship between Varric and Cole is simply something that just does not work well for me at all.  I know it's probably not a common impression, and that Varric is intended to be a good friend, so I try to accept that and headcanon my way around the bits that bug me. Still, the way he treats Cole after the more-spirit choice is really off-putting, and I honestly think Solas does a much better job at handling his own emotions, seeing something good in the outcome he didn't want, and being truly supportive no matter what. After Trespasser, I'm not at all inclined to view anything Solas says or does in a remotely positive light anymore, but nothing he says to or about Cole is like that horrible "could have been a person" line or the equally insulting "nonsense words, like Bartrand in the end" reading Cole gets from Varric.

 

Anyway, regarding Cole and sexuality, I actually don't think that asexuality as a plot point could have worked with Cole, because unless the game really tried to hammer it into your head, it'd just seem like he hadn't completely transitioned from his spirit state. Even then, I doubt it'd help any issues with asexual erasure if the one in the game thus far was a mutated spirit.

 

It doesn't have to be a plot point at all -- the mere existence of a positively portrayed character who is not interested in that kind of thing, and not treated as a broken thing to be fixed or a complete freak for that "lack" of interest, would have been just as welcome. But yes, I know that some folks would consider it less than ideal ace representation because he's not fully, unambiguously human, and asexuality is occasionally used to emphasize how not-human a non-human is.

[BraveVesperia]

Absolutely. It's good to see another spirit reply positively to him, too. I'm still annoyed at Command for rudely brushing him off. And that happy little "hello" makes my day.

It seems right that Connection would be more welcoming towards Cole, since she's a centre of learning and well... connection.  Command reminds me of persons who thinks "I'm in charge, my opinion is what matters" or "Feeling is for the weak!" Almost like someone made Vivienne or Morrigan into a spirit, come to think of it. *cough* Or Solas. I'm glad he got a friendly spirit reaction this time!

 

Thank you. He was an extremely rare potential opportunity to an see aromantic/asexual character, a positive one at that, and I know I'm not the only one for whom having that twisted inside out was a kick in the guts. Blatant asexuality erasure is bad enough in general, but feels that much worse when it's attached to character that we could hope might have been "one of us". It's a "NO H*MO, SEE!!!!!" equivalent and one huge reason why I'm glad the spirit path is my canon.

 

Throwing in a "love interest" out of the blue is one of the laziest excuses for actual character development as far as I'm concerned -- for both parties. It's annoying both because Maryden has shown no signs of being a kind person, and because she's passed around like candy. Cole, Krem, Zither, any dude will do. As good as it is to potentially have a trans man find acceptance in a relationship, it just feels ... cheap towards her.

Agh, definitely. I'd always 'headcanoned' Cole as aromantic and asexual (whether spirit or human-like). So it's to see him suddenly in a relationship with Maryden. I wouldn't be as bothered if Cole's story was built around the concept of wanting to experience mortal romance or something. But it's just flung in there so we can 'see' that he's more human now. In a game that's very positive towards other members of the lgbt community, I'm disappointed that asexuals and aromantics would get that.   After all, there are so many ways they could've shown that being more human changed him. Even just "I like eating now, let's have lunch"!

 

It's especially odd, because it seems designed to annoy both people who liked Cole aro/ace, and people who were interested in him romantically. Is there any group of people who actually wanted him paired with a random npc? Weird. Especially now I've seen Krem's version. He, an npc, gets more depth to the romance than Cole, our companion. 

You make a good point about Maryden being passed around like some kind of romance tool. I hadn't considered that before!

 

Ouch, good point. And Cass is not someone who forms friendships easily in the first place, so that worst-case scenario would no doubt hurt her deeply. I'd hope she and Blackwall have reconciled at this point, but I recall no new post-base-game interactions between them to show whether or not that is true.

He makes an offhand comment that it's still "awkward" around Cassandra. I'll take that as a tentatively good sign. Perhaps she's no longer angry, but isn't sure how to go about rebuilding their friendship. Cole shouldn't leave yet, he's still got his work cut out for him with this bunch of oddballs. 

 

Rainier's non-Warden ending actually left a big lump in my throat and all I could think was "Cole must be so proud of him". It's one of the few things in Trespasser that I genuinely like -- that, and the fact that he resumed using his real name. Also, his story about blowing up a lake of oil and accidentally creating the mother of all blazes in the Deep Roads was hilarious. He does get into a lot of trouble.

 

I only watched some videos so I may have missed something, but what are the interactions between the two that you like?

Same here!   It makes me wonder if Cole inspired him, especially with the post-reveal banters in the main game. Hmm, if I remember rightly, after Rainier's story about the explosion, Cole says something like "I'm glad you survived, Thom." It's pretty simple, but he says it in such a genuine way that I find it very touching. Especially since Rainier had been visiting his men on my PT, and must have faced a lot of vitriol from them (and rightly so). Cole makes a similar comment in the Fade library, after Rainier and Dorian finish bickering about something.

 

During one of Cole's banters (perhaps at the lake), Rainier asks him how he's doing or what he's been up to. IIRC, Cole's response confuses him a little, but I liked that he's trying and it's not a one-way interest.

Hah, I apologise for the vagueness! I tend to remember my emotional reaction better than the actual dialogue details. 

 

Yeah ... I really loved seeing his joy at the discovery that the Veil is not natural, but that heavily implied "ONLY Solas understands me, ONLY Solas doesn't think I'm a wrong thing" is complete BS from the writer. Cole has friends who respect and love him as he is, even if they don't understand him perfectly. It's such a contrast to the lines from the dinner cutscene in which he expresses similar joy and gratitude towards the Inquisitor. I had high hopes that Trespasser would recapture the feeling of that scene, but instead it ignored the bond with the Inquisitor altogether in favor of using Cole to push a very unsubtle "Solas is a good guy and the only one who matters" message.

DAI can be so all-over-the-place sometimes with character relationships. I'll be so certain that characters have formed a strong bond, only for the game to throw me later. Like Cass and Rainier's Skyhold comments regarding Cole, when we've just seem them becoming friends in banter. It's a bizarre step back from DA2, but perhaps the timeskips helped them pace those.

 

That piece of dialogue was a fine example. Even if they had him say it (which feels out of character tbh), they could have had a reaction wheel from the Inquisitor. Along the lines of: "That's not true Cole, we care about you too. Help us to understand." 

 

100% agreement. That is what upset me more than anything about Trespasser, because it would completely pervert this character if he knew everything but said nothing. He deserves better than just being a tool for pushing a pro-Solas agenda.

It's one thing that makes me hope Cole doesn't appear again, because I certainly wouldn't want to see him associating with Solas. Except to stop him. He should be true to his character. Not a tool to make Solas seem more 'human' and understandable.