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The Cole Thread Reborn.


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#76
Phalaenopsis

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I like all of the possible Cole lookalikes posted and they're certainly what I imagined while reading Asunder, but for actual in game Cole, I think he shares a lot of physical features with Rupert Grint, no? 

 

Spoiler

 

Haha, that's what my husband always tells me when he passes behind my screen: "Playing with your Weasley again?"


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#77
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Yes. For a shy spirit who wants most people to not see him/forget him I was actually surprised how chatty he turned out to be! Commenting on how cute tuskets are with Blackwall (can I just say that I only like Blackwall when he's talking with Cole, this is how great Cole is), saying hello to the wandering spirits in Crestwood, always going "It's nice to help people! :D" after a random sidequest. He adds a lot of flavor to the boring parts of the game for sure.

 

I loved taking him to the Hissing Wastes. He makes comments about the size of it and the sky at night. He's also very happy when you are freeing the caged people in Emprise du Lion and even makes a comment about someone dying in the boat you pass by at the frozen lake. In JOH he greets the spirits and can even relate to one. My fav is when he comments on someone missing their teapot in the Western Approach when you find the supplies, as well as tells you how the people died.


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#78
Korva

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Seeing a little 'Cole Approves' in the corner of the screen always makes me smile.

 

Hearing it is even better. I don't "aww" easily, but his warm approval does the trick because it's so good to see him happy.

 

3) Look at all the stars. They are so far away. Some of them are gone.

 

That was really neat, though IC-wise I bet everyone is super-confused by this basic astronomy lesson. :P I also like the line because it shows that nothing he says or does is just random nonsense, even if those around him may not understand it. It's one of those "challenge yourself to ask and think instead of dismissing his perceptions" moments.

 

And here's my favourite picture of Cole

 

It's among of my favourites too, showcasing his vulnerable side, and his eyes are a startling shade of blue there compared to other times when they're more cloudy gray. Other Cass-and-Cole fans may also appreciate this, by DanaDuchy:

 

Spoiler

 

And an impressively detailed piece of fanart on the "you're too bright" theme, by someone who I think used to post on the old thread (link to the post with the full size here.)

 

Spoiler


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#79
Ninna

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Love, love Cole. He says so many interesting things. After trying him one time, I took him everywhere.

 

Agreed! Shall we pass questions around the campfire to get things goings?

 

1) Here's the big one, did you make Cole more spirit or more human and why?

 

2) Who is your favorite party pairing with Cole for banter?

 

3) Any general thoughts to share?

 

I'll get back with my own answers later  :D


1) I made him more human. But I have to confess I did it because of Varric. I thought he should be more spirit. I guess I'll try to make him more spirit this time (I'm in my second playthrough).

 

2) Varric. I love how he gets confused about the voices in Varric's head, which are actually characters. 

 

3) Sometimes he makes choices harder. He made me double guess my own decisions by pointing out people would get hurt if I did this instead of that.

I'd definitely want him to meet Anders and Justice. There's a lot of pain there. I wonder how would he react, and if he could help. It could be overwhelming, I think.



#80
nightscrawl

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In the end I think the choice does say more about Solas, Varric, and us as the player more than it does about Cole. Hence why I think the choice is simply gray, not right or wrong.


I think some choices are put in the game for this very reason. What choice do we make? What is our stated reason for making it? What factors may have influenced us to make it? How do we feel once we have made it? These are all character defining questions, both for roleplay and in real life.
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#81
Sabriel.

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2) Varric. I love how he gets confused about the voices in Varric's head, which are actually characters.


omg when he starts spoiling the next Sword & Shields book. Like, she's injured and has to make it down a hill, or something. Cassandra freaks out: "Cole, is that how the book ends?!" Varric: "Not anymore...." Then Cole is confused because he can't see it now. :P
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#82
Qun00

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You know, I'd thought the human vs spirit choice was simple.

After all, there is no point in turning Cole into something he is not. He doesn't care about becoming part of human society, but only fulfilling his purpose.

But then I got that one cutscene before the final fight with Corypheus. Cole uses "forget" on himself and says "You may still call me Cole, if you wish."

Damn...

#83
Cee

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You know, I'd thought the human vs spirit choice was simple.

After all, there is no point in turning Cole into something he is not. He doesn't care about becoming part of human society, but only fulfilling his purpose.

But then I got that one cutscene before the final fight with Corypheus. Cole uses "forget" on himself and says "You may still call me Cole, if you wish."

Damn...

 

That scene was definitely the bittersweet part of what was otherwise an easy decision to me, but even at the end of the game, he's happy. I have no regrets for my decision.


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#84
Cee

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Sometimes Cole's awkward straightforwardness is quite amusing.

bwd9n0cl.jpg

 

I didn't bring him around much on my first playthrough because my canons are always dual-wield rogues in a two-mage, one warrior party, so I never use another rogue for most of the game. I eventually made him an archer and brought him for late game stuff and JoH, but on my second playthrough I am a mage so Cole and Sera are basically swapping the entire game.



#85
Sabriel.

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You know, I'd thought the human vs spirit choice was simple.

After all, there is no point in turning Cole into something he is not. He doesn't care about becoming part of human society, but only fulfilling his purpose.

But then I got that one cutscene before the final fight with Corypheus. Cole uses "forget" on himself and says "You may still call me Cole, if you wish."

Damn...

Ouch.

 

I still want to try spirit Cole in an alternate playthrough, someday. I'll just....brace myself for that, then.


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#86
drosophila

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That scene was definitely the bittersweet part of what was otherwise an easy decision to me, but even at the end of the game, he's happy. I have no regrets for my decision.

 

The equivalent scene you get if you make him more human is waaay sadder. 



#87
thats1evildude

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I look at this way: the human vs. spirit choice is about Cole's benefit vs. the benefit of others. As a spirit, he can do a lot more to help others, but he will always stand apart from the world. As a mortal, he will experience pain and he won't be able to help others as easily, but he will grow as a person.

I pick human. There will always be more spirits, but what Cole has done is remarkable and unique. I don't want to destroy that just because Solas has a hard-on for the Fade.

#88
Cee

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I look at this way: the human vs. spirit choice is about Cole's benefit vs. the benefit of others. As a spirit, he can do a lot more to help others, but he will always stand apart from the world. As a mortal, he will experience pain and he won't be able to help others as easily, but he will grow as a person.

I pick human. There will always be more spirits, but what Cole has done is remarkable and unique. I don't want to destroy that just because Solas has a hard-on for the Fade.

 

It has nothing to do with Solas and the Fade. But as Solas says, there are so few spirits of Compassion because of the nature of the world. To me, it doesn't make any sense to rip one away when they're so rare. He can help many more, as you said, and he can move on from the mortal Cole in one way or another, easing his own pain too. He's so happy and unburdened and light if you choose spirit that it just makes more sense to me.


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#89
thats1evildude

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No, it's his fascination with spirits and the Fade, as well as that whole notion of "we cannot change our nature," which is part of Solas' whole baggage.

But as Solas himself said, the idea that formed a spirit is strong enough, it will reform in the Fade. However rare they may be, there will always be Spirits of Compassion.

#90
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The equivalent scene you get if you make him more human is waaay sadder. 

 

At least the Inquisitor stays with him. I just feel that part of the spirit scene was wrong. If not for the Inquisitor deciding to walk away, it might not have felt as empty. When the Inquisitor sits beside Cole if he's made more human, and he thanks them, it feels like their friendship has finally matured into something tangible. Cole thanks them for not leaving him during the dinner scene when he's a spirit, but it seems like that's exactly what happens before the final battle. If you don't take Spirit Cole with you to the final fight, only at the party do you realize he maintained part of his humanity when he laughs after teasing the Inquisitor about forgetting. 


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#91
Illyria

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I look at this way: the human vs. spirit choice is about Cole's benefit vs. the benefit of others. As a spirit, he can do a lot more to help others, but he will always stand apart from the world. As a mortal, he will experience pain and he won't be able to help others as easily, but he will grow as a person.

I pick human. There will always be more spirits, but what Cole has done is remarkable and unique. I don't want to destroy that just because Solas has a hard-on for the Fade.

 

Your argument rests on the idea that humanity is somehow better than anything else.  Cole is still remarkable on the spirit path because he's a spirit with human experiences.  Neither side offers any true benefit to Cole because both require the Inquisitor to remove a fundamental part of what makes him him.  I know a lot of us here are Solas fans, but the choice to make Cole spirit has nothing to do with being a fan of Solas.  I agree that Cole is remarkable and unique and I don't want to risk that because - to use your argument - Varric thinks you can be a human by wishing really hard.

 

(I don't believe that either side is more right that the other.  I've taken both paths myself and still haven't made up my mind which is going to be my canon because it is the single hardest choice in the game.  I was just showing how the same argument can be used for spirit!Cole)


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#92
thats1evildude

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I would say that it is better than being a spirit. A spirit is ultimately just a reflection of the mortal world. Would spirits even exist without the emotions or dreams of mortals to shape them?

 

I've seen the spirit path and it feels like a regression. My canon is the human path.



#93
Korva

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I totally agree with what you say about humans thinking they're the be all and end all and it was this aspect that initially made the decision very hard for me. I had nodded and agreed with all of Solas' talk of spirits up until that point and so when I was making this choice I tried very hard to figure out if my inclination for making Cole human was based out of this kind of superiority deeming humanity the better option. But, having read Asunder and played through the game too many several times, I do think Varric was correct that humanity was Cole's initial choice.

 

I see where you're coming from, but my interpretation is different. Cole has changed since Asunder in some huge ways -- he knows what he is now, he starting coming back into his powers, he sustains his physical form through his connection to the Fade instead of having to cater to its needs for food or rest, he no longer fears fading away or not being real, he expresses no distress over most people not seeing or remembering him. Making the big choice based on the past fears of a twisted and broken creature that did not even know the most fundamental fact about his own existence isn't something I'd be comfortable with.

 

Cole as we meet him during Inquisition knows and accepts what he is: an embodied being from the Fade. He firmly and fearfully rejects the "demon" label to the point of repeatedly calling for his own destruction if he ever slips again, but he is not in denial or distress about being a spirit. I don't remember him ever expressing a desire to be (more) human, which is why that option during his quest kind of felt like it came out of the blue. Varric really is talking out of his arse, IMO, because Cole himself says he came through to help, not to experience mortal existence. When he could not save the original Cole and embodied himself in that poor kid's image in a desperate guilty attempt to make up for his failure, it had disastrous consequences for himself and others. On the other hand, I do remember several instances of Cole calling himself a spirit and wanting to be a spirit (as opposed to a demon).

 

Some people see the more-spirit path as regression, I call it a hard journey of reclamation and rediscovery. He has to pick up the pieces of his existence, shattered both by his own attempt to live another person's life and by Lambert's revelation, and put himself back together. He chooses to separate "demon" from "spirit", to guard against the former and does his utmost to be the latter even though he is still confused, insecure and hurting, all of which lead to making mistakes. Some of his own hurts start to heal over the course of the game, I think, when he finds acceptance, trust, friendship and many opportunities to help. But the worst and deepest wound is that terrible shackle of loss, failure and hate that binds him to both the former templar whose neglect "killed him" and to his intimate identification with the original Cole. Forgiving the templar and forgiving himself and allowing himself to truly let go of that assumed identity are the two steps necessary to complete his healing, to turn away from the demon he could be, and fully find himself again. They handled the part with the templar perfectly, but dropped the ball on the second part of the equation, the post-Temple of Mythal cutscene, which is such a shame.

 

 

I agree that it seems more effort was put into the human path, perhaps this will be the 'canon' choice for future games? I think if the spirit path was more about making Cole immune to possession on his own rather than relying on an amulet I'd be a lot more in favour of it.

 

 

I hope it won't be canon, and not only because it isn't the choice I made. I loathe the notion of a singular "canon" in these games in general because it begs the question of whether the choices we get are just red herrings and why we have them to begin with. They have to have a default world state for "late adopters" who didn't play a prior game, but that shouldn't be considered the same as the "right way" to play.

 

And yes, the emphasis on the amulet feels kind of gimmicky and cheapens Cole's own accomplishments and inner strength, which he does have regardless of where he turns. I wish I could express my appreciation for how far he has come and everything he has done for us, but when I tried to tell him that he helped save the world at the victory party, the useless dialog wheel turned that into essentially dismissing him and his feelings. Thanks, writers. (A perfect example of why I'll never stop wanting the old "proper" dialog system back.)

 

I think it says a lot about the writing and the quality of Cole's character that he provokes these kinds of discussions :)

 

Definitely!


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#94
Korva

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Regarding Solas being biased: he undeniably is. But so is Varric. He is not the neutral party here, not the truer friend who understands Cole better and cares more for what Cole really wants. If anything, I'd say that Varric is more biased than Solas and makes less of an effort to engage with the side of Cole that he does not favor, both before and after this quest. Which is no small reason why I never liked his interactions with Cole all that much.

 

At least the Inquisitor stays with him. I just feel that part of the spirit scene was wrong. If not for the Inquisitor deciding to walk away, it might not have felt as empty.

 

That is where they colosally screwed that scene up, yes. IMO the best cutscenes with a companion/advisor are usually the ones that show closure and connection by ending with a shot of the two characters together. It doesn't have to be a happy kind of togetherness, that isn't the point -- one character quietly supporting another character in a difficult moment by staying with them is just as poignant and important, if not moreso. They did this with Cullen's (friendship/platonic) scenes, which is one reason why I ended up liking that character a lot more than expected. Cassandra's friendship scene in the war room ends that way, too, and I absolutely love it. Just a few quiet seconds of companionship help the bond feel real and tangible in a "show, don't tell" kind of way that is often worth more than words.

 

Scenes that just end abruptly feel jarring, and this scene makes it worse by showing the Inquisitor give Cole that look before she walks out on him -- it's like she's thinking "... whatever. Freak." Nothing could be more immersion- and character-breaking for me than that, especially after that beautiful dinner cutscene where I felt that the writer had perfectly understood my intentions and my Inquisitor's trust, respect, support and affection for this most unusual of her friends. In this scene, it all goes completely out the window and it seems she doesn't try or even care. They should have let her stay and sit with him, let the two connect like in the more-human equivalent. Without that, the scene feels like a big kick in the teeth, like the devs all but telling players that they made the wrong choice. As I said before, I think this is one reason thing that puts people off this choice, and while that saddens me, I also understand it to a degree. I find the spirit path extremely satisfying and well done otherwise, but botching the final scene is a huge problem because that, more than probably any other scene, is what people will look at to define what the relationship is like. When they walk away feeling that the answer is "gone, and neither one gives a toss", someone dropped the ball so hard it crashed all the way to the core of the Earth.



#95
redbowlingball

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I see where you're coming from, but my interpretation is different. Cole has changed since Asunder in some huge ways -- he knows what he is now, he starting coming back into his powers, he sustains his physical form through his connection to the Fade instead of having to cater to its needs for food or rest, he no longer fears fading away or not being real, he expresses no distress over most people not seeing or remembering him. Making the big choice based on the past fears of a twisted and broken creature that did not even know the most fundamental fact about his own existence isn't something I'd be comfortable with.

 

Cole as we meet him during Inquisition knows and accepts what he is: an embodied being from the Fade. He firmly and fearfully rejects the "demon" label to the point of repeatedly calling for his own destruction if he ever slips again, but he is not in denial or distress about being a spirit. I don't remember him ever expressing a desire to be (more) human, which is why that option during his quest kind of felt like it came out of the blue. Varric really is talking out of his arse, IMO, because Cole himself says he came through to help, not to experience mortal existence. When he could not save the original Cole and embodied himself in that poor kid's image in a desperate guilty attempt to make up for his failure, it had disastrous consequences for himself and others. On the other hand, I do remember several instances of Cole calling himself a spirit and wanting to be a spirit (as opposed to a demon).

 

Some people see the more-spirit path as regression, I call it a hard journey of reclamation and rediscovery. He has to pick up the pieces of his existence, shattered both by his own attempt to live another person's life and by Lambert's revelation, and put himself back together. He chooses to separate "demon" from "spirit", to guard against the former and does his utmost to be the latter even though he is still confused, insecure and hurting, all of which lead to making mistakes. Some of his own hurts start to heal over the course of the game, I think, when he finds acceptance, trust, friendship and many opportunities to help. But the worst and deepest wound is that terrible shackle of loss, failure and hate that binds him to both the former templar whose neglect "killed him" and to his intimate identification with the original Cole. Forgiving the templar and forgiving himself and allowing himself to truly let go of that assumed identity are the two steps necessary to complete his healing, to turn away from the demon he could be, and fully find himself again. They handled the part with the templar perfectly, but dropped the ball on the second part of the equation, the post-Temple of Mythal cutscene, which is such a shame.

 

I hope it won't be canon, and not only because it isn't the choice I made. I loathe the notion of a singular "canon" in these games in general because it begs the question of whether the choices we get are just red herrings and why we have them to begin with. They have to have a default world state for "late adopters" who didn't play a prior game, but that shouldn't be considered the same as the "right way" to play.

 

And yes, the emphasis on the amulet feels kind of gimmicky and cheapens Cole's own accomplishments and inner strength, which he does have regardless of where he turns. I wish I could express my appreciation for how far he has come and everything he has done for us, but when I tried to tell him that he helped save the world at the victory party, the useless dialog wheel turned that into essentially dismissing him and his feelings. Thanks, writers. (A perfect example of why I'll never stop wanting the old "proper" dialog system back.)

 

 

I agree with several of your points and with everything you say about the merits of the spirit path and the way it can be seen to make sense for him- it's why it's such a tough choice. He has definitely changed, but to what purpose? He wants to stay in the mortal world and help, something he states again and again. That's all well and good, but the mortal world is incredibly dangerous for a spirit, especially one as rare and as good as compassion. He is clearly terrified of the idea of being bound, a real possibility considering his prominent position as one of the Inquisition (even the Qunari know of his existence, thanks Bull). It seems the only way he can remain a spirit and exist in the mortal world safely is through the use of a magical amulet. Considering his situation, that just seems too easy a thing to break or have stolen, and even it it weren't it personally screams too much of sticking a bandaid on a gaping wound to me. If he truly wanted to be a spirit then on the spirit path he would take off to the Fade, where it's (somewhat) safe for him, but he chooses to stay because he wants to help. To me, that says that he must develop some more human qualities. It's the only way he can be grounded enough to exist safely in the place he wants to be and do what he wants to do. It protects him from outside forces but also allows him to help people in more nuanced ways, something he seems grateful for - for example, his realisation about how what he says can hurt people further and that he can learn not to do this. 

 

I try to keep in mind every time I speak to Cole pre-personal quest that he is not a spirit, nor is he human. He is somewhere in between. If I view him as just a spirit it does make Varric's argument for humanity seem like wishful thinking, but if I view him as human it makes Solas seem just as bad. I think both of them are projecting and allowing some of their personal baggage to influence their opinion.

 

On a sidenote, his wandering up to people (as a spirit) and vanishing their fears without letting them work through it is perhaps not the most helpful thing he can do. It seems easier, but is it morally right for him to that? In the Fade the Divine talks about the problems with the Nightmare and how important it is for people to experience fear, pain and sadness as it is what allows them to grow as people and I agree with her. Cole may have wonderful and sweet intentions, but is it right to allow him to do what he does? He himself seems worried in the Fade about this issue. I can't remember the exact words as it was random ambient dialogue I've only heard once, but he was musing on this and seemed unsure. Granted he was being prodded by the nightmare, but it did kind of have a point. I mean, everyone has a ball of pain tied up in their head. If he shakes it loose and allows them to skip dealing with it, is it really a kindness? I know that my ball of pain isn't something I'd want people messing with. I'm saving it for when I can afford therapy  :P

 

When I think about some of the spirit stories Solas shares, they put me on edge too. The story of the spirit who pushes young girls towards kind boys is sweet, but isn't that messing with their free will? I thought Solas was all about the personal freedom?

 

Yup, when I said 'canon' it was the default world state I was referring too. My husband is playing through with the default world state and I just about fell over when m!Hawke wandered onto the battlements, haha. It isn't fair if the human path is favoured by Bioware and has more time put into it because that's what they plan to be the default in the future, as it makes the whole idea of the game kind of redundant. 


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#96
redbowlingball

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Regarding Solas being biased: he undeniably is. But so is Varric. He is not the neutral party here, not the truer friend who understands Cole better and cares more for what Cole really wants. If anything, I'd say that Varric is more biased than Solas and makes less of an effort to engage with the side of Cole that he does not favor, both before and after this quest. Which is no small reason why I never liked his interactions with Cole all that much.

 

I think the reason for this is because Solas seems well versed in interacting with both spirits and mortal beings and is friends regularly with both. He clearly seems to favour the former, which is why he pushes for making Cole a spirit, but is able to see the merits in Cole's humanity (if grudgingly). Varric has only ever socially interacted with people, with one notable exception - the Anders mess. He doesn't even dream. I can understand why he might feel somewhat alienated from spirit Cole and I don't really blame him for it. They are both definitely biased though, and yes, Varric maybe more so. I love how brilliantly the game makes each character come at things from a point of view that seems so well tailored to them. It really makes it so immersive. What I can't wait for is to find out exactly what Solas is all about and I wonder if it will change my opinion on his opinion on Cole. 


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#97
Illyria

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I would say that it is better than being a spirit. A spirit is ultimately just a reflection of the mortal world. Would spirits even exist without the emotions or dreams of mortals to shape them?

 

I've seen the spirit path and it feels like a regression. My canon is the human path.

 

Inqusition confirmed that what we know of spirits and the Fade has been skewed by a couple of thousand years of Chantry propaganda.  'Is Cassandra defined by her cheekbones and not her faith?  Varric by his chest hair and not his wit?' and all that.

 

But that's why Cole's quest is my favourite - it leads to discussion and different opinions.


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#98
nightscrawl

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He wants to stay in the mortal world and help, something he states again and again. That's all well and good, but the mortal world is incredibly dangerous for a spirit, especially one as rare and as good as compassion. He is clearly terrified of the idea of being bound, a real possibility considering his prominent position as one of the Inquisition (even the Qunari know of his existence, thanks Bull). It seems the only way he can remain a spirit and exist in the mortal world safely is through the use of a magical amulet. Considering his situation, that just seems too easy a thing to break or have stolen, and even it it weren't it personally screams too much of sticking a bandaid on a gaping wound to me.


Moral and emotional arguments aside, I really like how you focused on the logical aspects here, most of which I had never thought of.
 

I try to keep in mind every time I speak to Cole pre-personal quest that he is not a spirit, nor is he human. He is somewhere in between. If I view him as just a spirit it does make Varric's argument for humanity seem like wishful thinking, but if I view him as human it makes Solas seem just as bad. I think both of them are projecting and allowing some of their personal baggage to influence their opinion.


Yep, I agree. I wish there were a more neutral response you could give while still picking one or the other for this very reason.
 

In the Fade the Divine talks about the problems with the Nightmare and how important it is for people to experience fear, pain and sadness as it is what allows them to grow as people and I agree with her.


I don't think the 'Divine's' comments are nuanced enough. Different people react differently to trauma, and some people have trauma so deep and terrible that it completely interferes with their lives (I could give examples, but I think that would be excessive). They can NOT move past it. That is not something that can help a person grow. All that does is break the person and make them incapable of growth. The example that she gives: "When old memories no longer make the veteran soldier's hand tremble, it is because the Nightmare has taken them," is perfectly illustrative of my own point. How can the veteran soldier learn from that? They can't; it's just a trauma that causes emotional distress.
 

On a sidenote, his wandering up to people (as a spirit) and vanishing their fears without letting them work through it is perhaps not the most helpful thing he can do. It seems easier, but is it morally right for him to that? Cole may have wonderful and sweet intentions, but is it right to allow him to do what he does? He himself seems worried in the Fade about this issue. I can't remember the exact words as it was random ambient dialogue I've only heard once, but he was musing on this and seemed unsure. Granted he was being prodded by the nightmare, but it did kind of have a point. I mean, everyone has a ball of pain tied up in their head. If he shakes it loose and allows them to skip dealing with it, is it really a kindness? I know that my ball of pain isn't something I'd want people messing with. I'm saving it for when I can afford therapy  :P


Cole doesn't make people forget their fear or pain though, he makes them forget himself after he's helped them work through it. Let's take the example of the woman who felt guilt over her brother's death after she went off to kiss a boy. She's been carrying that around for who knows how long and the memories are being dredged up by the recent experiences of the Inquisition. In an instance like that you could probably be told numerous times by friends, family, spiritual advisors, but the thoughts and feelings remain, even if you consciously think they are not rational. So in that way he helps by doing what no one else can.
 

When I think about some of the spirit stories Solas shares, they put me on edge too. The story of the spirit who pushes young girls towards kind boys is sweet, but isn't that messing with their free will? I thought Solas was all about the personal freedom?


You take this differently than I do. He said that the spirit steers the girls toward the boys, but it doesn't force them fall in love. I look at it more like making them aware of each others' existence (although if this is a 'village' they probably already know each other...).


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#99
redbowlingball

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I don't think the 'Divine's' comments are nuanced enough. Different people react differently to trauma, and some people have trauma so deep and terrible that it completely interferes with their lives (I could give examples, but I think that would be excessive). They can NOT move past it. That is not something that can help a person grow. All that does is break the person and make them incapable of growth. The example that she gives: "When old memories no longer make the veteran soldier's hand tremble, it is because the Nightmare has taken them," is perfectly illustrative of my own point. How can the veteran soldier learn from that? They can't; it's just a trauma that causes emotional distress.

 


Cole doesn't make people forget their fear or pain though, he makes them forget himself after he's helped them work through it. Let's take the example of the woman who felt guilt over her brother's death after she went off to kiss a boy. She's been carrying that around for who knows how long and the memories are being dredged up by the recent experiences of the Inquisition. In an instance like that you could probably be told numerous times by friends, family, spiritual advisors, but the thoughts and feelings remain, even if you consciously think they are not rational. So in that way he helps by doing what no one else can.

 

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this point. I know that Cole makes them forget his 'help' but he basically hears their mind and thoughts and messes around with them without their consent, which is I suppose my biggest issue with it. It's one thing to put honey in wine or to find a lost locket and quite another to tangle with feelings, emotions and memories. In the 'real' world pain is kind of normal and to have supernatural help with it without our knowing of it seems iffy to me. Even if all he does is say the right words, along with a bit of 'himself', he is interfering in a way that cannot be objected to which is...eh. Yes, you can go to therapy and do all sorts and never manage to deal with the pain effectively, but at least then you are choosing to try and help yourself. There's all sorts of questions that could be raised from Cole's actions. The woman he helped, what if he hadn't done that? She might have gone on in pain, but she also might have gone on to experience something that resolved her problems naturally and in a way that might bring her more peace. Taken to extremes, there's that dying solider.  I didn't allow Cole to kill him. I do believe in euthanasia for human beings but only with full, clear and boundless consent and where there is no doubt of the person's fate. Things can change and to be honest I think spirit Cole helps in a way that he shouldn't - that sort of help should be for other fade-creatures.

 

It's not just about learning from pain. The Nightmare in stealing the veteran's fear may also have stolen memories that are precious to him, even if they are unbearably painful. Or perhaps what happened to him influenced the rest of his life in a way that is meaningful to him.

 

Someone who has experienced great trauma may not be able to move past it, but is it on us to decide when they need to have a wizard  Cole fix it? Besides, a lot of the things Cole helps with are not experiences that have stopped a person from growing, as he tries to help many of the companions we meet and they are all products of a lot of good and terrible experiences. For Cole to help in this world, I feel that morally he should refrain from 'tugging loose' the pain. What makes him special is that he feels the pain and can have an idea of what needs to be done to fix it, but he needs to go about it in a more human manner in order for it to be morally ok in the world he wants to function in. That's why I love some of the strange things Cole does around Skyhold - he can help in physical ways no one had thought of, but without walking up to people, saying some words and then vanishing, leaving them happier but without knowing how or why. I also like the idea of him being friends with someone and talking through their pain as he does with our companions - they engage with him knowing what he is, they remember his words and who he is and can choose to accept his help or not. 

 

This is a little rambly, sorry. Sometimes I'm not aware of my opinions until I start to write them down :) I guess...just imagine if a whole bunch of spirits were in Thedas helping in their own ways. There would be little to no heartbreak or pain, but it wouldn't be real - free will would not exist as we know it and people would rarely learn anything. If this is a sacrifice worth making is totally a matter of opinion and almost takes us into utopia/dystopia discussion. Ahhh, Dragon Age.

 

 

You take this differently than I do. He said that the spirit steers the girls toward the boys, but it doesn't force them fall in love. I look at it more like making them aware of each others' existence (although if this is a 'village' they probably already know each other...).

 

Oh yes, I know the spirit didn't make them fall in love, but it was interfering in the natural course of these people's lives in a way they had no choice in. It is implied that this spirit caused a situation where the girls were matched up with ideal partners right off the bat. If a spirit had done that to me many years ago, sure I suppose it would be nice to have met 'the one' (or a series of 'the ones') the first time, but I wouldn't be the person I am today without the mistakes and lessons I had in having a life in the normal manner. I don't think I would choose to give that up and those girls did not get a chance to make those early mistakes, something I believe is important. 


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redbowlingball

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Moral and emotional arguments aside, I really like how you focused on the logical aspects here, most of which I had never thought of.
 

 

Haha, yes, I'm a bit too practical sometimes. If Cole is determined to stay and help and the choice is to have him permanently grounded or to stick an amulet on him and hope for the best...well. 


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