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The Cole Thread Reborn.


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#101
Korva

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I agree with several of your points and with everything you say about the merits of the spirit path and the way it can be seen to make sense for him- it's why it's such a tough choice. He has definitely changed, but to what purpose? He wants to stay in the mortal world and help, something he states again and again. That's all well and good, but the mortal world is incredibly dangerous for a spirit, especially one as rare and as good as compassion.

 

That it is. I think and hope that most Inquisitors who really care for this special friend, and some of the companions who do the same, will try to make it at least a little safer and less prejudiced and fearful. That is definitely part of my headcanon.

 

You know what I'd like to see, regardless of the outcome of Cole's personal quest? A chance for him to help other spirits. He expresses a desire to do that after Solas loses Wisdom. I hear Jaws of Hakkon features quite a few spirits but no real involvement of Cole in any of the dealings with them, which is a shame. I want to see him soothe a confused and angry spirit, guide someone back home, save them from being bound and broken. That sort of thing. Not just saying a few cryptic word as the Inquisitor's tagalong, but as the main actor in that encounter.

 

(even the Qunari know of his existence, thanks Bull)

 

Wow. I don't really like Bull so I pretty much rushed through his quest, but ... that is a huge no-go and breach of confidence. I wonder if the writers didn't quiet think the implications through. Generally speaking, I don't think Cole's presence or even existence is meant to be known at all, unless he becomes more human-like and loses the ability to protect himself by remaining unseen. And even then, it's probably a good idea to keep a tight lid on the truth of what he is, because a lot of mages would view such a unique creature as a thing to dissect and abuse for their own ends.

 

If he truly wanted to be a spirit then on the spirit path he would take off to the Fade, where it's (somewhat) safe for him, but he chooses to stay because he wants to help.

 

The helping is definitely the primary goal and motivation. No contest. Compared to that, the "I am/want to be a spirit" is a distant second, but it is a second, while I never had the impression that "I want to be more human" was even in the race. Still, one thing I like so much about the character is that the core of him stays the same no matter what. He always cares and wants to help, he always says "I'm me". There's a strong sense of self there, even though it's somewhat malleable. In the end, it's not about better or worse, about one neatly labelled box versus another, but ... about trying to guide him as best we can without presuming that we can define him or that our understanding is perfect, being there for him to help him deal with the consequences, and otherwise trusting in his own strength and good heart to see him through?

 

To me, that says that he must develop some more human qualities. It's the only way he can be grounded enough to exist safely in the place he wants to be and do what he wants to do. It protects him from outside forces but also allows him to help people in more nuanced ways, something he seems grateful for - for example, his realisation about how what he says can hurt people further and that he can learn not to do this.

 

His ability to help and understand improves either way. In his own words he is "more" than he was before. I'm glad that -- in keeping with the overall hopeful theme of the character -- the "more" is what the game focuses on, instead of being "less" of whatever side was weakened in making the other stronger. It remains bittersweet but positive (that one botched cutscene aside).

 

At any rate, either side of him has both drawbacks and strengths. I get passionately pro-spirit not only because it's my canon, but also because so many people dismiss it or flat-out treat it as abominable (often mischaracterizing both Cole and others, mainly Solas, in the process), but I do see the potential issues with it. The other side has issues too, though, and I think some folks are a bit quick to brush that off because, again, we are human.

 

One advantage of the more-spirit path, IMO, is that he appears to have more options. He could go back to the Fade or he can stay. He can remain hidden or show himself to the people he chooses. Retaining the ability to stay unseen and unremembered is a definite plus when it comes to protecting himself.

 

I think both of them are projecting and allowing some of their personal baggage to influence their opinion.

 

Absolutely. I think Solas is much closer to the mark, but it is also a fact that he holds a lot of prejudice/resentment for the various cultures and people on this side of the Veil. Both he and Varric have moments that made me curse at the screen in frustration for not being able to challenge their BS.

 

On a sidenote, his wandering up to people (as a spirit) and vanishing their fears without letting them work through it is perhaps not the most helpful thing he can do. In the Fade the Divine talks about the problems with the Nightmare and how important it is for people to experience fear, pain and sadness as it is what allows them to grow as people and I agree with her.

 

I agree with nightscrawl's comment on this. Cole's help has more nuance than people give him credit for, and making people forget their pain is not what he does at all. Out of all the interactions he has with others, we only see him use the forgetting for the purpose of healing with the templar, who is already trying to forget. Granted, we might debate whether that man has any "right" to forget, but if Cole sees him as a changed person who has suffered enough, I think it's his call to grant that wish.

 

Conversely, "Justinia" and Varric acting like an absolute authority on what people are like and how they (should) deal with pain displays the very same lack of depth and nuance that folks accuse Cole of showing. We are no monolith or hivemind. What breaks one person, another can recover from -- and that should not be held against either of them. What helps one person in one situation may set them off badly in another. And so on.

 

Comparing Cole to the Nightmare was a deliberate cruelty playing on his worst fear. It certainly is a point worth examining (which he does) because he could become that way if he becomes twisted again like he was in Asunder, or worse ... but in then end it's about as true as comparing a surgeon to a torturer. They both take a knife to people, so clearly they're the same thing.

 

On a tangent, am I the only one who thought the Nightmare was completely pathetic and that the whole story arc suffered for it? This is supposed to be the number one Fear demon, bloated on a milennium of terror and suffering in the wake of the Blights, able to drive hundreds of Grey Wardens around the bend and into Corypheus' clutches. The ultimate horror. Yet the only one who is even remotely affected by its influence is Cole, everyone else shrugs off its flimsy taunts without missing a step. I wanted the trip through its lair to be uttery brutal for everyone on a mental and emotional level, a horrendous ordeal that they just about crawl through by the skin of their teeth and that leaves them licking their wounds for months on end, examining and second-guessing and doubting themselves (and each other?) over and over.

 

Varric has only ever socially interacted with people, with one notable exception - the Anders mess. He doesn't even dream. I can understand why he might feel somewhat alienated from spirit Cole and I don't really blame him for it.

 

Yes, it makes sense that he has a hard time of it ... at least initially. It's just that they're supposed to be such good friends, and I'd expect that after months or even years, Varric would have tried to understand that side of Cole at least a little instead of comparing it to the "nonsensical" rantings of his red-lyrium-crazed brother. Andraste's arse, Varric, that is really low. And it's entirely on him, not on Cole or proof how how wrong and horrible the spirit-path is (which is how I've seen people treat his reaction).

 

What I can't wait for is to find out exactly what Solas is all about and I wonder if it will change my opinion on his opinion on Cole

 

I liked Solas more before the big reveal. :mellow: Now I'm just "meh" about him or future appearances of him. I valued the friendship I thought he and my Inquisitor had, in part because it was a slow and hard-won thing, tested each step of the way, but I didn't make any of my choices (about Cole or otherwise) with his approval in mind, so I doubt future developments will make me look back at Inquisition and change my mind much.



#102
Cespar

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Ouch.

 

I still want to try spirit Cole in an alternate playthrough, someday. I'll just....brace myself for that, then.

I feel the same way. In my opinion, Cole really wanted to be a human in Asunder. He was really crushed when he found out that he wasn't a human, but he did come in terms with what he was at the end of Asunder. 


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#103
Korva

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Inqusition confirmed that what we know of spirits and the Fade has been skewed by a couple of thousand years of Chantry propaganda.  'Is Cassandra defined by her cheekbones and not her faith?  Varric by his chest hair and not his wit?' and all that.

 

Heh, Solas passionately and eloquently advocating for a better view of spirits and the Fade is what I like best about him (especially when he is interacting with Cole). :)

 

It's not just the Chantry either. Comparatively speaking and oddball outsiders like Solas aside, an Andrastian might even be the best bet when it comes to finding an ally for a more spirit-view. (It would likely be a hard sell still, but that does not stop my own faithful Inquisitor from trying.) The Dalish deny there is such a thing as a good spirit. Tevinter and its own version of the Chantry are controlled by mage-supremacist slavers -- in a society where fellow humans are property and fodder for the blood altars, what consideration can a spirit hope for? The qunari would probably nuke the Fade and all its creatures from orbit if they could. I have no idea how the dwarves feel about the Fade seeing how it they don't even dream and do not spawn any mages, but their traditional culture is ... not exactly open-minded. So I guess it's "sun-crazed surfacer sh*t, bad news that we want no part of" at best.

 

Anyway, both Solas and Cole confirm that spirits are formed as reflections of mortal existence, but I don't see that as justification to regard them as inferior. Everyone comes from somewhere and is influenced by their surroundings. Meeting a strange creature and immediately looking for any reason to begin the "mine is bigger than yours!" song and dance is bad news. I'd be more interested in finding common ground ... and Cole or a good-willed similar spirit is more relatable and a better person in my book than many "real people" are.


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#104
nightscrawl

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Wow. I don't really like Bull so I pretty much rushed through his quest, but ... that is a huge no-go and breach of confidence. I wonder if the writers didn't quiet think the implications through. Generally speaking, I don't think Cole's presence or even existence is meant to be known at all, unless he becomes more human-like and loses the ability to protect himself by remaining unseen. And even then, it's probably a good idea to keep a tight lid on the truth of what he is, because a lot of mages would view such a unique creature as a thing to dissect and abuse for their own ends.


Gatt has some banter with most of the party members. I've only seen Cole's and Dorian's. I'm sorry I can't remember what was said to Cole, but he was quite nasty about it, the little sh*t. At least Dorian gives as good as he gets when it comes to that stuff, but Cole doesn't/won't/can't and just ends up upset.

 

On a tangent, am I the only one who thought the Nightmare was completely pathetic and that the whole story arc suffered for it? This is supposed to be the number one Fear demon, bloated on a milennium of terror and suffering in the wake of the Blights, able to drive hundreds of Grey Wardens around the bend and into Corypheus' clutches. The ultimate horror. Yet the only one who is even remotely affected by its influence is Cole, everyone else shrugs off its flimsy taunts without missing a step. I wanted the trip through its lair to be uttery brutal for everyone on a mental and emotional level, a horrendous ordeal that they just about crawl through by the skin of their teeth and that leaves them licking their wounds for months on end, examining and second-guessing and doubting themselves (and each other?) over and over.


I think the other companions and NPCs are more capable of hiding their anxiety when taunted than Cole is.

(I tend to focus on Dorian because he's my fav, so pardon me.) In the post-Adamant dialog, aside from his blurted-out admission of feelings (if romanced), when he asks you how are are and you pick the (armor icon) "I'm fine," he reacts incredulously: "But I was there... You're just fine?" Similarly, if you admit that you were troubled by it, he reacts with understanding and sympathy. That, in addition to some other lines shows that he had some of his own anxiety about the whole ordeal, despite his attitude during it.

I think this applies to most of them.

 

Yes, it makes sense that he has a hard time of it ... at least initially. It's just that they're supposed to be such good friends, and I'd expect that after months or even years, Varric would have tried to understand that side of Cole at least a little instead of comparing it to the "nonsensical" rantings of his red-lyrium-crazed brother. Andraste's arse, Varric, that is really low. And it's entirely on him, not on Cole or proof how how wrong and horrible the spirit-path is (which is how I've seen people treat his reaction).


I've never seen the spirit path and am sorry to learn that Varric reacts this way =/.

#105
Sabriel.

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You know what I'd like to see, regardless of the outcome of Cole's personal quest? A chance for him to help other spirits. He expresses a desire to do that after Solas loses Wisdom. I hear Jaws of Hakkon features quite a few spirits but no real involvement of Cole in any of the dealings with them, which is a shame. I want to see him soothe a confused and angry spirit, guide someone back home, save them from being bound and broken. That sort of thing. Not just saying a few cryptic word as the Inquisitor's tagalong, but as the main actor in that encounter.

Without spoiling things, he does have pretty valuable input at certain points that would not be heard if he weren't there, imo. (But I also haven't even played through it without him in the party so what do I know.) Nothing on the level you describe, unfortunately. Though I also think that's a nice idea for a future cameo, now that I think about it.



#106
Sabriel.

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I realized reading all these thoughtful debates that my reasons for making Cole more human are also kind of...academic? In a meta way. He isn't an abomination, he didn't possess the real Cole, he conjured up a physical body for himself just by feeling really hard. This is huge, and even Solas seems surprised that it's possible. So when he tells Varric "we can't change our nature just by wishing," well....we're talking about someone who's done that already, Solas. During his quest it's apparently at the point where he can comfortably "commit" either way. When I made him more human it was basically in anticipation of seeing if it's really possible! Will he be a regular guy in ten years, achieving the original Cole's wish ("I might like being human....what will I learn next?"), or will he always have that connection to the Fade and his spirit abilities? 

 

ICly though, my Inquisitor's motivations were more in line with what was mentioned above and wanting to protect him more efficiently. It helped that I did the templar quest so there are literally supposed to be Venatori everywhere, whereas if I hadn't, meh. This combined with wanting to keep the Inquisition together at all. I took the Josephine routes more often than not, and my Inquisitor was very much a pragmatic diplomat. People in general still have so many misconceptions about spirits (and yes, now the Qunari know about him? Gatt doesn't like him off the bat because of these misconceptions. That will end so well), knowing that there's a ~demon~ working for the Inquisition will not help their reputation. Same reason she allowed Dorian to stick around on probation of sorts, and warned Sera she was becoming a liability and to cool it post-Verchiel March. She has an organization to run and certain things will just give detractors motivation to take it down.

 

Plus if he becomes more spirit he might just vanish back into the Fade one day and my Inquisitor would miss him terribly, so we can't have that! /s i am selfish


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#107
Shienis

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1) Here's the big one, did you make Cole more spirit or more human and why?

 

2) Who is your favorite party pairing with Cole for banter?

 

3) Any general thoughts to share?

 

1) 

Honestly, I was just staring at the screen for a long while wondering why should I choose that for him, but then I decided for human, as right before that I got few Varric (Greatly) Disapproves and needed to make up for it. So I watched the scene with 'killing' the ex-templar, didn't dare to breathe and when the inquisitor went with Cole to that restaurant, I cried. That scene was filled with too many emotions, but it was great. I never regretted choosing human. Later I googled how it looks like when you choose the spirit option and compared to the human version, it looked sad. Not sad-sad, but empty-sad.

 

2)

I don't know. I love all of them, maybe except Sera and Vivienne. But Blackwall, Cassandra, Dorian, Iron Bull, Varric... all of them have nice chat with him.

 

3)

In my first playthrough I went to Therinfal to save templars. When Cole appeared to help me and introduced himself, I was like: "Cole? THAT Cole from Asunder? OMG Really?" and the level of fangirling skyrocketed. I've read Asunder about two years ago (and now I'm reading it again to remind the events) and I was happy like a kid before Christmas when Cole appeared in the game. He might seem weird, but I adore him. And when he was so happy after Coryphreak failed to bind him, I cried again. He's the most heart-touching character in the game and if I didn't play rogue (and he weren't so squishy), I would probably have him in my party all the time.


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#108
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Without spoiling things, he does have pretty valuable input at certain points that would not be heard if he weren't there, imo. (But I also haven't even played through it without him in the party so what do I know.) Nothing on the level you describe, unfortunately. Though I also think that's a nice idea for a future cameo, now that I think about it.

 

He was in my party through all of JOH and anything with spirits he was involved in as well as the main quest, and let me just say he was so cute with the Bear! And during a quest to gather memories, he comments on it too and makes things a bit clearer.



#109
Joe25

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So Cole got reborn. Are we talking about spiritually or physically? I hope it is physically because a little demon spirit baby Cole would be the sweetest thing on earth. :wub:  



#110
Illyria

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1) 

Honestly, I was just staring at the screen for a long while wondering why should I choose that for him, but then I decided for human, as right before that I got few Varric (Greatly) Disapproves and needed to make up for it. So I watched the scene with 'killing' the ex-templar, didn't dare to breathe and when the inquisitor went with Cole to that restaurant, I cried. That scene was filled with too many emotions, but it was great. I never regretted choosing human. Later I googled how it looks like when you choose the spirit option and compared to the human version, it looked sad. Not sad-sad, but empty-sad.

 

2)

I don't know. I love all of them, maybe except Sera and Vivienne. But Blackwall, Cassandra, Dorian, Iron Bull, Varric... all of them have nice chat with him.

 

3)

In my first playthrough I went to Therinfal to save templars. When Cole appeared to help me and introduced himself, I was like: "Cole? THAT Cole from Asunder? OMG Really?" and the level of fangirling skyrocketed. I've read Asunder about two years ago (and now I'm reading it again to remind the events) and I was happy like a kid before Christmas when Cole appeared in the game. He might seem weird, but I adore him. And when he was so happy after Coryphreak failed to bind him, I cried again. He's the most heart-touching character in the game and if I didn't play rogue (and he weren't so squishy), I would probably have him in my party all the time.

 

I gave Cole a jacket with a guard on hit masterwork (I think I called it 'Rhys' Forgiveness' or something stupid like that).  He stopped being so squishy after that.

 

On the topic of the Qunari knowing about Cole - I had no idea that characters other than Solas had banter at that point.  I think he must take priority since I've always done that quest with Solas and always had his banter.

 

And Leliana... I thought you were meant to check everything Bull sends the Ben-Hassrath.  'We have a spirit working with us' comes under the 'stuff they don't learn' banner.
 



#111
Commander of the Grey

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I realized reading all these thoughtful debates that my reasons for making Cole more human are also kind of...academic? In a meta way. He isn't an abomination, he didn't possess the real Cole, he conjured up a physical body for himself just by feeling really hard. This is huge, and even Solas seems surprised that it's possible. So when he tells Varric "we can't change our nature just by wishing," well....we're talking about someone who's done that already, Solas. During his quest it's apparently at the point where he can comfortably "commit" either way. When I made him more human it was basically in anticipation of seeing if it's really possible! Will he be a regular guy in ten years, achieving the original Cole's wish ("I might like being human....what will I learn next?"), or will he always have that connection to the Fade and his spirit abilities?


ICly though, my Inquisitor's motivations were more in line with what was mentioned above and wanting to protect him more efficiently. It helped that I took the templar route so there are literally supposed to be Venatori everywhere, whereas if I hadn't, meh. This combined with wanting to keep the Inquisition together at all. I took the Josephine routes more often than not, and my Inquisitor was very much a pragmatic diplomat. People in general still have so many misconceptions about spirits (and yes, now the Qunari know about him? Gatt doesn't like him off the bat because of these misconceptions. That will end so well), knowing that there's a ~demon~ working for the Inquisition will not help their reputation. Same reason she allowed Dorian to stick around on probation of sorts, and warned Sera she was becoming a liability and to cool it post-Verchiel March. She has an organization to run and certain things will just give detractors motivation to take it down.

Plus if he becomes more spirit he might just vanish back into the Fade one day and my Inquisitor would miss him terribly, so we can't have that! /s i am selfish


I don't think that's literally what Solas meant with that line. Not in a physical sense. I think he meant it in more of a mental way. (A comment aimed at himself as well as far as not being able to stop the path that he's on) There's a line of dialogue between him and more human Cole where it hints that Solas has seen spirits take human form, maybe even hinted that Solas (or the other elven gods) did so.

I think that's why Solas is still understanding of his situation if you do choose the human path and offers his help.

Solas: How are you, Cole? Do you feel better now that you have dealt with the Templar?

Cole: I don't know. He hurt me, hurt the real Cole. I'm angry at him. I can't let that go. I have to become more, let it make me real.

Solas: You may well become fully human after all. I never thought to see it.

Cole: When did you see it before?

Solas: I did not say that I had.

Cole: No, you didn't. It's harder to hear sometimes, sorry.

Solas: Good luck, Cole. You have taken a difficult road.

#112
dragondreamer

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You know what I'd like to see, regardless of the outcome of Cole's personal quest? A chance for him to help other spirits. He expresses a desire to do that after Solas loses Wisdom. I hear Jaws of Hakkon features quite a few spirits but no real involvement of Cole in any of the dealings with them, which is a shame. I want to see him soothe a confused and angry spirit, guide someone back home, save them from being bound and broken. That sort of thing. Not just saying a few cryptic word as the Inquisitor's tagalong, but as the main actor in that encounter.

 

Cole is actually the most interesting character to have along in JoH, due to the nature of the story. 

 

Spoiler


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#113
Sabriel.

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I don't think that's literally what Solas meant with that line. Not in a physical sense. I think he meant it in more of a mental way. (A comment aimed at himself as well as far as not being able to stop the path that he's on) There's a line of dialogue between him and more human Cole where it hints that Solas has seen spirits take human form, maybe even hinted that Solas (or the other elven gods) did so.

I think that's why Solas is still understanding of his situation if you do choose the human path and offers his help.

Solas: How are you, Cole? Do you feel better now that you have dealt with the Templar?

Cole: I don't know. He hurt me, hurt the real Cole. I'm angry at him. I can't let that go. I have to become more, let it make me real.

Solas: You may well become fully human after all. I never thought to see it.

Cole: When did you see it before?

Solas: I did not say that I had.

Cole: No, you didn't. It's harder to hear sometimes, sorry.

Solas: Good luck, Cole. You have taken a difficult road.

I've heard the banter, though I'm not sold on that speculation myself. If anything, it tells me that he believed it might be theoretically possible, due to all his studies and knowledge of spirits, but he's never seen it in practice. And considering they're absolutely talking about Cole when he says the line about changing your nature (though, yes, he does tend to project his own issues onto others a lot), and Solas can debate with the Inquisitor early in the game that spirits are "people" despite their nature i.e. lacking a physical form/clinging to one emotion, that's what I took away from it.



#114
Korva

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I gave Cole a jacket with a guard on hit masterwork (I think I called it 'Rhys' Forgiveness' or something stupid like that).  He stopped being so squishy after that.

 

Guard-on-hit and Walking-Fortress-on-hit are a must, yes, though they can be hard to come by early on. I followed that advice when I grew frustrated with having to scrape the poor little guy off the floor all the time -- in hindsight, the southern Hinterlands AKA Melee Hell where every other enemy seems to have a 360° AoE are not a good place for trying to learn to play a squishy melee DPS companion. :rolleyes: At first I tried to solve that problem by making him an archer, but that felt too OOC for him so I looked for help with dagger rogues and gave him priority for the defensive masterworks even over my sword & board Inquisitor. She is quite sturdy on her own, he is not, and no one should go down on her watch damn it. Especially not Cole.

 

Gatt has some banter with most of the party members. I've only seen Cole's and Dorian's. I'm sorry I can't remember what was said to Cole, but he was quite nasty about it, the little sh*t. At least Dorian gives as good as he gets when it comes to that stuff, but Cole doesn't/won't/can't and just ends up upset.

 

I expect no less from Dorian! Solas does the same, if my vague memory is correct. But yes, apt description for Gatt. I didn't much fancy the idea of an "alliance" with an all-but-enemy to begin with, and Gatt pretty much sealed the "no deal" decision right off the bat. It felt like having one's chain yanked and being judged for how much an obedient dog the vaunted Inquisitor is willing to be.

 

I think the other companions and NPCs are more capable of hiding their anxiety when taunted than Cole is.

 

He's definitely more of a heart-on-the-sleeve kind of person than most everyone else, yes. I was actually quite proud when he just breathed a quiet but adamant "No" in response.
 

(I tend to focus on Dorian because he's my fav, so pardon me.)

 

No need to "pardon"! In fact, since the Cole threads tend to focus a lot on Solas and Varric for obvious reasons, I'm curious to hear what people with other favourites think about those NPCs' reactions to our spirit buddy. We already had some much-deserved appreciation for the Cass-and-Cole combo, so how do you feel about Cole-and-Dorian?

 

In the post-Adamant dialog, aside from his blurted-out admission of feelings (if romanced), when he asks you how are are and you pick the (armor icon) "I'm fine," he reacts incredulously: "But I was there... You're just fine?" Similarly, if you admit that you were troubled by it, he reacts with understanding and sympathy. That, in addition to some other lines shows that he had some of his own anxiety about the whole ordeal, despite his attitude during it.

 

True, but the Fade sequence itself was deeply unsatisfying for me. We're a bunch of strong-willed guys and gals without a doubt and no one is a stranger to grueling situations. Still. The ultimate fear demon should be able to do a number on our group, especially seeing as how a run-of-the-mill desire (if memory serves?) demon did a much better job at affecting the party in Origins.
 

I've never seen the spirit path and am sorry to learn that Varric reacts this way =/.

 

It wouldn't be quite as ugly if 1) the Inquisitor or Solas could call him out for it and 2) he showed signs of trying to get over it. I want to imagine that he does, because he is not a bad guy and he honestly does care for Cole. So like the screwup with the final spirit-path cutscene and a few other big frustrations, I'm trying to see it as a dropped ball or oversight on the writers' path rather than a "this is how it really is".

 

Cole is actually the most interesting character to have along in JoH, due to the nature of the story.

 

Spoiler



#115
redbowlingball

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I agree with nightscrawl's comment on this. Cole's help has more nuance than people give him credit for, and making people forget their pain is not what he does at all. Out of all the interactions he has with others, we only see him use the forgetting for the purpose of healing with the templar, who is already trying to forget. Granted, we might debate whether that man has any "right" to forget, but if Cole sees him as a changed person who has suffered enough, I think it's his call to grant that wish.

 

Conversely, "Justinia" and Varric acting like an absolute authority on what people are like and how they (should) deal with pain displays the very same lack of depth and nuance that folks accuse Cole of showing. We are no monolith or hivemind. What breaks one person, another can recover from -- and that should not be held against either of them. What helps one person in one situation may set them off badly in another. And so on.

 

I expanded on my thoughts about Cole's helping a lot more in my reply to nightscrawl but the basic issue I have with it is it's a supernatural being dealing with people's minds without their consent. I think that's about the crux of it for me. Is it really Cole's call to make that templar forget what he did? In the real world, people have to live with the things they do and the pain they carry on their own. I don't think even one spirit going around messing with that is a good thing. I'll stop here or I'll just end up repeating myself from my last post and maker knows I write too much as it is :)

 

We do see at least one instance of Cole attempting to help another spirit back into the Fade - Command didn't take it well :P



#116
nightscrawl

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No need to "pardon"! In fact, since the Cole threads tend to focus a lot on Solas and Varric for obvious reasons, I'm curious to hear what people with other favourites think about those NPCs' reactions to our spirit buddy. We already had some much-deserved appreciation for the Cass-and-Cole combo, so how do you feel about Cole-and-Dorian?


I really like the combo. Near the beginning I enjoy seeing Dorian's friendliness and curiosity toward Cole. You can really tell by Dorian's tone that he doesn't mean his questions in a malevolent (as in, what can I gain from this, path to power) way, nor is it creepy, but he just has a genuine curiosity that leads him to ask his questions. But what always draws me is the personal banter later on which is so very revealing, not only in the content of the banter itself, but in how Dorian responds to it. While initially upset, he does understand that Cole doesn't understand and keeps that in mind when he tries to explain. Everything about the whole sequence is so wonderful on many levels.

I've seen others who disagree, but I also think that it does help Dorian just a bit. Dorian tends to keep a lot of his personal issues in check and lets those influence his responses to people, like the post-Adamant romance dialog. Instead of talking about it he explodes. So I think that, even if Cole's prodding did hit a raw nerve, that having to explain it also helped him work through some things as well. Perhaps this was intentional on Cole's part, perhaps not. I think we've actually seen that he can be more crafty than he's normally given credit for.

That said... there IS a point during the banter series where Dorian gets really upset, Cole knows it, and why, but doesn't really know what to do about it and can only apologize. I would really like to be able to tell Cole that sometimes all someone needs is time, and for Dorian the recent meeting with his father dredged up all these negative feelings about his father and his own self and he needs some distance to be able to talk about it without being overwhelmed. However, Dorian does let things fester, so it's probably best that he wasn't really given the time to do that.

 

True, but the Fade sequence itself was deeply unsatisfying for me. We're a bunch of strong-willed guys and gals without a doubt and no one is a stranger to grueling situations. Still. The ultimate fear demon should be able to do a number on our group, especially seeing as how a run-of-the-mill desire (if memory serves?) demon did a much better job at affecting the party in Origins.


I think this is also partly the result of the context and reason we go into the Fade in DAI in the first place. In DAO the whole thing was a puzzle and working through it to find our companions was part of that. As an aside, I was always irked we couldn't discuss the various Fade scenarios with our followers, some of which are pretty dark. But in DAI the primary purpose was to learn what actually happened at the Conclave, and to you know... force the Inquisitor to off someone >.>. (I joke, but the whole Fade thing had a huge impact on my Inquisitor.)



#117
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Cole is actually the most interesting character to have along in JoH, due to the nature of the story. 

 

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#118
dragondreamer

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Pretty sure it's spirit path exclusive because it didn't happen when I played through with a human!Cole.  The Inquisitor/companion interaction is mostly of the (option on the dialogue wheel) variety while speaking to other characters.  There was at least one time where I got an interactive banter with Dorian in response to a particular area.  There may have been others, companions do the usual thing where they'll react to certain landmarks, creatures and story beats.  So far I've only used Cole, Iron Bull, Dorian, Cass, and Solas on first runs through the area.  So yeah, JoH isn't focused on companion interaction though they definitely have presence.  It's more of a contained story with a lot of new lore.



#119
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Pretty sure it's spirit path exclusive because it didn't happen when I played through with a human!Cole.  The Inquisitor/companion interaction is mostly of the (option on the dialogue wheel) variety while speaking to other characters.  There was at least one time where I got an interactive banter with Dorian in response to a particular area.  There may have been others, companions do the usual thing where they'll react to certain landmarks, creatures and story beats.  So far I've only used Cole, Iron Bull, Dorian, Cass, and Solas on first runs through the area.  So yeah, JoH isn't focused on companion interaction though they definitely have presence.  It's more of a contained story with a lot of new lore.

 

Same here. Human Cole doesn't react to that, he just greets the spirits. And I got the Dorian one too. Solas has that one line that makes me burst out laughing.


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#120
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#121
dragondreamer

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Same here. Human Cole doesn't react to that, he just greets the spirits. And I got the Dorian one too. Solas has that one line that makes me burst out laughing.

 

Oh, Solas. :lol:



#122
redbowlingball

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For fun I did a very quick practice of pen and ink this evening and it turned into a sort of Cole? Also reminds me of Heath Ledger but I can't place why...Anyway, I'm still very much learning how to draw but I thought I'd share, even though it's not great, because Cole needs the love. Wish I could fix his mouth but ink is so damnably permanent. 

 

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#123
Cespar

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I didn't click on any of the Spoiler, but I know to bring Cole and Cassandra with me to Frostback Basin. I haven't done the DLC before, but I do have it. Hopefully, we'll get new banter and conversation with the cast for the new DLC. I'm hoping to get that post-story/human interaction from Cole. 



#124
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Yess there were many moments Cole made me want to reach through the screen and hug him! Ugh.
 

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#125
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It's heartbreaking when as a Dalish you have to explain what happened.

 

Yess there were many moments Cole made me want to reach through the screen and hug him! Ugh.
 

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