I find thinking of Cole as my child/a child a little hard to do when I'm busy crafting some seriously lethal daggers for him to slice people open with. He's just so good at it!
Teaching your child to fight through life's difficulties is also part of your parental responsabilities... 
I find thinking of Cole as my child/a child a little hard to do when I'm busy crafting some seriously lethal daggers for him to slice people open with. He's just so good at it!
He's...complex. I love how he embodies both sweet innocence and such darkness. Getting those two sides of him to make sense together is fun.
I don't think he embodies sweet innocence, he gave that up when he crossed the Fade and started playing an active part in people's lives.
Children also don't embody sweet innocence. They can be really cruel.
Teaching your child to fight through life's difficulties is also part of your parental responsabilities...
Haha, to be honest, that's probably how my Inquisitor sees it. 'Now then, little Cole, some people will tell you that it's best to solve problems with words, not violence. Those people are stupid. Here are some knives. Have fun, darling!'
I don't think he embodies sweet innocence, he gave that up when he crossed the Fade and started playing an active part in people's lives.
Children also don't embody sweet innocence. They can be really cruel.
All I meant by that was that he has two very strong sides to his character. There's the innocence/wonder/ignorance or whatever you wish to call it mixed with his desire to help, which clashes with the whole 'I go where the knife needs to be'/efficient killing machine thing he has going on. I know children can be very cruel but I don't see that in Cole at all. But then I don't see Cole as childlike so when I say 'sweet innocence' I'm not trying to encapsulate children, rather that I feel that Cole has the sort of innocence that comes from his incredibly unique situation, not from any childlike qualities.
Haha, to be honest, that's probably how my Inquisitor sees it. 'Now then, little Cole, some people will tell you that it's best to solve problems with words, not violence. Those people are stupid. Here are some knives. Have fun, darling!'
Yep, that's exactly what my Inquisitor would say 
Meanwhile in the background:
Solas greatly disapproves.
Varric greatly approves.
Later the three of them have a fight about the kind of life lessons Cole should be learning...
Teaching your child to fight through life's difficulties is also part of your parental responsabilities...
Guest_lady0635_*
What I find funny about Cole is both he and Sera are in their 20's yet while she's an LI you can bed, he is portrayed so darn innocent and sweet that it feels almost wrong to think of him in that light in DAI. That's why I can only see it as a possibility in future games if you choose the human path. He so innocently states he's not ready yet and I think that is meant as a way to show his growth at the end of the game if you choose the human path for him, but it could also imply he will be very different in future games.
Since the Keep has his choices listed, in future games I am almost positive our choice will affect his future.
Hmm... now I'm inspired to write a reunion fanfic where everyone meets up 10 years later and the Inquisitor and Varric are shocked at how human he's become.
What I find funny about Cole is both he and Sera are 20 yet while she's an LI you can bed, he is portrayed so darn innocent and sweet that it feels almost wrong to think of him in that light in DAI. That's why I can only see it as a possibility in future games if you choose the human path. He so innocently states he's not ready yet and I think that is meant as a way to show his growth at the end of the game if you choose the human path for him, but it could also imply he will be very different in future games.
Since the Keep has his choices listed, in future games I am almost positive our choice will affect his future.
What's even funnier is that, of the two of them, it's Sera I would say is more genuinely childlike. I don't get any nurturing feelings with her though...
Guest_lady0635_*
What's funny is that, of the two of them, it's Sera I would say is more genuinely childlike. I don't get any nurturing feelings with her though...
I see it that way too. She's like my Inquisitor's sister by the end of the game. The romance always seemed off in the vids I saw because she too has that child-like feel about her, despite her rather colorful mouth and obsession with sex if you romance her. Plus after hearing her childish laughter in DAO when you give the Red Jenny the painted box, it feels weird to me because she's just 10 at the time, and suddenly 10 years later there she is, ready to jump into bed with your Inquisitor. I know kids grow up, but I still think of her as that little girl.
Despite Cole's innocence, and James amazing acting that portrays it too well, he is actually more adult than her in many ways.
What's even funnier is that, of the two of them, it's Sera I would say is more genuinely childlike. I don't get any nurturing feelings with her though...
Oh, she's in her 20s, and she's had sex before, so it's not like you're taking advantage of some doe-eyed virgin.
While Cole's physically in his 20s, mentally he's a child.
Guest_lady0635_*
Oh, she's in her 20s, and she's had sex before.
And while Cole's physically in his 20s, mentally he's a child.
I don't see him as a child, but an alien learning despite how he was written in Asunder. He's no innocent to sex or love. He's voiced it enough like a bad fanfic in the game. Children would not understand it like he does. They would find it gross or wrong. He just doesn't understand the concept of sex because he's not fully human, but he understands feelings and love and doesn't react like it's icky like a child would. That's why Iron Bull hooks him up with a prostitute, but Cole's compassion sees Candy's distress and he helps her. A child would not be able to do that.
I know Gaider said he was written that way, but if I was going to write about a spirit with a child-like mind, I would not make him a muderer no matter how corrupt his form became. I understand what Gaider was trying to project, but as someone who also writes, I feel he wrote him more like a newcomer from another world than a boy with no concept for good and evil. Cole clearly states he knew what he was doing, and if he had a child-like mind, he would not understand that he was killing people. As he says to the Inquisitor. He knew but he didn't know there were other ways.
Oh, she's in her 20s, and she's had sex before, so it's not like you're taking advantage of some doe-eyed virgin.
While Cole's physically in his 20s, mentally he's a child.
This is an attitude I've noticed a lot for Cole fans, especially when it comes to fanfic involving him. Maybe it's mostly a Tumblr attitude, but the fact that people seem to consider him mentally a child is what weirds them out if Cole is anything other than a plot device for verbally bringing the Inquisitor or their LIs fears into the open. Mostly because the average fanfic writer doesn't really "get" the nuances of a character as complicated to write as Cole, and tends to focus on a very narrow subset of topics to write about, I'm sure.
I agree with Lady that he's less a child and more an alien...as he should be considered since he's a spirit. He's spent most of his time outside of the Fade in the White Spire not consciously knowing what or who he was, but between the events of Asunder and the end of Inquisition, he's become significantly less ignorant of how the world works and how people work. He's not innocent, but accepting, especially since he doesn't have the same hangups or expectations that mortals do for killing people, love, fears, nationality, etc.
Guest_lady0635_*
This is an attitude I've noticed a lot for Cole fans, especially when it comes to fanfic involving him. Maybe it's mostly a Tumblr attitude, but the fact that people seem to consider him mentally a child is what weirds them out if Cole is anything other than a plot device for verbally bringing the Inquisitor or their LIs fears into the open. Mostly because the average fanfic writer doesn't really "get" the nuances of a character as complicated to write as Cole, and tends to focus on a very narrow subset of topics to write about, I'm sure.
I agree with Lady that he's less a child and more an alien...as he should be considered since he's a spirit. He's spent most of his time outside of the Fade in the White Spire not consciously knowing what or who he was, but between the events of Asunder and the end of Inquisition, he's become significantly less ignorant of how the world works and how people work. He's not innocent, but accepting, especially since he doesn't have the same hangups or expectations that mortals do for killing people, love, fears, nationality, etc.
Justice was very similar in Awakening. He was so curious about love and wanted to learn more, but I don't see that as a child trying to discover new things, but an alien trying to understand humans. I only played DAO after DAI and there is a lot of similarities between the two, which also makes Justice's fate more tragic. Anders' hate unintentionally corrupted him or he could have become like Cole. I feel for both Anders and Justice. One wrong choice to save a friend destroyed everything. Anders just wanted Justice to survive. I can never hate Anders, but it's a shame he couldn't let go of his vengeance.
What's really sad is that since Justice wasn't bound to Kristoff's body, he totally could have manifested his own shape like Cole and not even jumped into Ansers' body. He could have made himself look like Kristoff if he wanted an identifiable face. It's really a shame. Even during the course of Awakening, Justice showed a remarkable ability to soak up information and processes it. His conversations with Anders about demons are super enlightening. I think Awakening goes on for a year or less, but even during that short time Justice was able to broaden his horizons and accept the mortal world as this cool place to stay in, and that justice isn't all he should stand for.
Guest_lady0635_*
That's a good point! Cole was special because he was the only one to do it, like Solas said, but if Justice could have learned it might have changed everything. Cole didn't know what he was doing though and it was a desperate subconscious reaction to the real Cole's death. Justice would have had to go through some sort of trauma himself to possible awaken that ability. Compassion is so sensitive though so what happened to Cole makes more sense than a spirit of Justice. He seemed to develop a love for Kristoff's wife through his memories, and was more than content to give up the body when she couldn't take it any longer.
Justice was my Warden's second best friend in Awakening. Nathaniel always comes first even if I don't try lol. If Anders lives, I think he should encounter Cole. He says there is no Justice any longer, but I disagree. Despite it being the same voice actor lol I saw a lot of Justice still buried deep in Anders in DA2.
To me it just seems like another one of Dorian's curiosity-driven questions that he asks to satisfy his own intellect. To me his tone in the question itself doesn't imply that he was even thinking about anything untoward.
I didn't think he was actually planning to do something, sorry if I wasn't clear about that. More like ... even as just an intellectual exercise, some things cross a line because you begin to lose sight of the fact that there's a sentient being (be it human or spirit) in front of you and not a puzzle to work out. The unfortunate "mages are used to viewing spirits as tools, not caring or even knowing how many spirits are hurt by that" dynamic would only add to the risk. I think this is an example of the questions that "can be shackles", as more-spirit-Cole says.
However, I will say that his question to Varric about red lyrium does lean in that direction, yes, which is why Varric responds as he does to it.
Oh yes. I even remember exactly where I got that banter, it shocked me that much. Still, the fact that he is able and willing to reflect on the occasional problematic attitudes is part of why I like him. I frequently found myself wishing I could talk to him more because Cole aside, his personal journey is among the most challenging of the companions and (as usual with Bioware, sadly) many aspects of it were barely touched on. People who insist on claiming he's nothing more than some in-your-face token homosexual boggle my mind something fierce.
I have never suggested that any of the mage followers drink from the well; I've never seen any of the responses. While I highly doubt there is different dialog for a romance, I am sorely tempted to pick it the next time I reach the Well in the game since you make it sound so intriguing, just to see what he says, especially since he does have a romance-based line for not wanting the Inquisitor to drink.
I'm glad I didn't spoil it by being more explicit about what he says, then! I like humorous Dorian -- his bets and banters with Varric are awesome -- but I also really like thoughtful Dorian, and that's definitely one of the best examples.
It's bad enough with the option for Hawke to sell Fenris back into slavery, but corrupting a spirit of compassion like that? A being whose only desire is to help and heal? *disgusted noise*
Yes, I really hope Bioware will continue to stay away from that sort of sheer evil, at least in games that heavily imply a "heroic" protagonist like the Inquisitor is meant to be.
I just wanted to say this entire bit sums up perfectly how I feel about that scene! Such a let-down after how perfect his 'dinner' scene is ("...thank you for helping me find this again, you don't know what it means."
).
It's like the two scenes were written/directed by totally different people. One who really grasped the essence of what might make someone choose the more-spirit-path, and one who didn't bother trying and brushed it off as thoughtlessly as many players do.
Good to see you in here again too, btw!
Thanks. Being among the apparent minority who really love the spirit-path can get lonely sometimes.
In regard to your point about the Nightmare demon - I think it would've had more impact if our companions had been trapped in nightmares again, like DAO. It's a lot easier to remain confident/brave when you're surrounded by friends and simply being trash-talked. A lot harder when your mind is being warped!
Indeed. I wouldn't want to be the one who has to "save" them like in Origins, though. Being a strong protagonist/leader can be satifying, but I like it just as much when my friends show their strength. Ideally, we'd all help save each other.
I thought he might view Cole as a tool or something sub-human. Instead, there was some wonderful bonding and insight there. It comes second only to Cassandra's friendship, for me.
I think Cole's sincerity and kindness can bring out the best in people, at least those who are not too jaded or prejudiced or just plain callous. Untouched by mortal preconceptions and biases, he sees and cares for you as you are. He does not see a dirty Vint or a deviant dishoring his family -- he sees Dorian. To him, Cassandra's love for silly romance novels is not a hilarious target for mockery or a contradiction of her badass duty-bound Seeker self -- it's simply a part of her that brings her joy. And so on. That is probably (more than?) a bit frightening at first, but also a rare and priceless gift for most of the companions once they allow themselves to trust him.
I like to think Varric eventually sees that he hasn't really lost Cole, especially since he's still at Wicked Grace. He might be a little more wary because of the whole Anders thing, but I doubt he'd stay that way forvever.
That is certainly what I hope and want to believe, yes. As I said, he really isn't a bad guy ... just very set in his views, moreso than Solas in a way, which is rather ironic.
I tend to see him as asexual and aromantic anyway, but pairing him with the Inquisitor feels particularly off.
Same, especially the more spirit-side of him. I desperately wish Bioware would give us the chance to connect as deeply with companions in a platonic manner and respect those friendships in the same way as a "romance". Jackhammering tab A into slot B should not be the pre-requisite nor the only way for the protagonist to have any chance at a lasting and mutually caring bond instead of the one-sided unpaid therapist thing. Especially with a character like this. 
Guest_lady0635_*
Same, especially the more spirit-side of him. I desperately wish Bioware would give us the chance to connect as deeply with companions in a platonic manner and respect those friendships in the same way as a "romance". Jackhammering tab A into slot B should not be the pre-requisite nor the only way for the protagonist to have any chance at a lasting and mutually caring bond instead of the one-sided unpaid therapist thing. Especially with a character like this.
Have you ever tried the Heart option just for certain moments like with Cullen or even Cass, but not to start a romance? I found the Heart can be just as warm and friendly without any sexual or romantic undertones. All companions should have had a Heart option or one for romance and one for close friendships based on your approval score.
Have you ever tried the Heart option just for certain moments like with Cullen or even Cass, but not to start a romance? I found the Heart can be just as warm and friendly without any sexual or romantic undertones. All companions should have had a Heart option or one for romance and one for close friendships based on your approval score.
I did this a lot! Half the time the heart is just being there as emotional support. In fact most of the Solas flirts are this, which is probably another reason I really liked that romance (I'm in the extreme minority of people who headcanon that they never actually had sex). With Cass and Cullen, by the end I felt my Inquisitor really did love them platonically. Cole too, but I felt like his Val Royeaux and pre-final battle scenes conveyed that well enough (on the human Cole path, at least) without heart icons.
Guest_lady0635_*
I did this a lot! Half the time the heart is just being there as emotional support. In fact most of the Solas flirts are this, which is probably another reason I really liked that romance (I'm in the extreme minority of people who headcanon that they never actually had sex). With Cass and Cullen, by the end I felt my Inquisitor really did love them platonically. Cole too, but I felt like his Val Royeaux and pre-final battle scenes conveyed that well enough (on the human Cole path, at least) without heart icons.
I did the exact same thing! Especially with Cullen's addiction and teasing Cass about her books. And yeah Cole was like Varric. A companion that you could grow close to and bond with without needing those extra options. Especially when my Inquisitor sits beside Cole on the ramparts and he thanks her. Unfortunately AFTER that touching scene with Cole I get teleported to a dark world version of Skyhold. 
RE Justice: He sounds like an interesting character, going by what folks here say. I never played Awakening or DA2 because the premise and characters sounded unappealing overall, but I bet comparing him to Cole, seeing both differences and similarities, must be quite fascinating for those who know and like both. Maybe I'll read up on him a bit. Though I wonder ... does a walking corpse freak the people around him out at all? Between the zombie-like darkspawn ravaging the country and the undead attacks on Redcliffe, I'd wager the Fereldans would be even more freaked out by that sort of thing than your average person.
He's going to start feeling emotionally attached to people soon (can't make them forget you now, Cole).
He already has that regardless of which step of his journey he is on, though. "Humanity" or sex have nothing to do with emotional attachment or, as someone else said, with the potential for a special bond.
This is an attitude I've noticed a lot for Cole fans, especially when it comes to fanfic involving him. Maybe it's mostly a Tumblr attitude, but the fact that people seem to consider him mentally a child is what weirds them out if Cole is anything other than a plot device for verbally bringing the Inquisitor or their LIs fears into the open. Mostly because the average fanfic writer doesn't really "get" the nuances of a character as complicated to write as Cole, and tends to focus on a very narrow subset of topics to write about, I'm sure.
Sadly, yes. Though I crave more Cole-fics, it's hard to find any I can actually enjoy. Aside from what you mention (bonus points if it features Cole getting yelled at for his troubles), there is just too much (torture)porn and humanocentrism with heavy doses of mischaracterization to show how "inferior" spirits are.
I agree with Lady that he's less a child and more an alien...as he should be considered since he's a spirit.
Thank you both for saying that. The "Cole is a child" attitude both misses a lot of the character's depth and easily gets squicky. Wanting to protect and help him is one thing, but literally regarding him as a child presumes authority and even ownership, erases his agency and his accomplishments. What he did between Asunder and Inquisition, entirely on his own, is damn remarkable, for one -- the whole "picking up the pieces of his shattered existence" thing I mentioned in an earlier post. On top of that, there's the fact that quite a bit of Cole's behavior would be called non-neurotypical in humans, and that's one group of people who suffers a lot from being infantilized, having their agency denied and being treated as deficient.
Also, Cole explicitly does not want to be coddled. He wants and needs to be taken seriously when he speaks of his past mistakes and his determination never to become a demon again.
He's spent most of his time outside of the Fade in the White Spire not consciously knowing what or who he was, but between the events of Asunder and the end of Inquisition, he's become significantly less ignorant of how the world works and how people work. He's not innocent, but accepting, especially since he doesn't have the same hangups or expectations that mortals do for killing people, love, fears, nationality, etc.
Exactly! He is an alien being in a strange and extremely hostile world. He has a different perspective, different perceptions and different priorities. And while he very much benefits from learning more about mortals' perspectives and priorities even when he embraces his nature again, this does not mean that his own are wrong ... or that the learning should only be one-sided.
Have you ever tried the Heart option just for certain moments like with Cullen or even Cass, but not to start a romance? I found the Heart can be just as warm and friendly without any sexual or romantic undertones. All companions should have had a Heart option or one for romance and one for close friendships based on your approval score.
Full agreement ... complete with the game acknowledging the special platonic bond, please. For example, as much as I like the solo ending scene as a moment of quiet strength, triumph and contentment, I'd also have loved the option to share that moment with Cole or Cassandra or ideally both.
After initial wariness about using them, I came to love some of the "heart" options because they really work very well as not sexually-charged at all but as expressions of special respect and affection. With Cass, I ended up using them so much that I got the awkward talk and promptly felt like crap for having put her in that situation. That, unfortunately, is where the notion of "hearts" as an expression of platonic love falls apart. I also used a few with Dorian, and once or twice with Josephine and Cullen, though much more cautiously since these two are not "safe" in terms of wanting to stay well clear of a romance.
Unfortunately AFTER that touching scene with Cole I get teleported to a dark world version of Skyhold.
You too? The lighting got all wonky for me after that scene -- well, its more-spirit equivalent. It was way too white and stark, like some stereotypical depiction of the afterlife, but the sky was pitch black and all the NPCs were gone. After a second or three, everything popped back to normal, but geez that was weird. Maybe it's because as far as I remember it's the only Skyhold cutscene that happens at night? The game felt like it was fumbling for the light switch and accidentally hit the "floodlights" setting.
Guest_lady0635_*
RE Justice: He sounds like an interesting character, going by what folks here say.
You too? The lighting got all wonky for me after that scene -- well, its more-spirit equivalent. It was way too white and stark, like some stereotypical depiction of the afterlife, but the sky was pitch black and all the NPCs were gone. After a second or three, everything popped back to normal, but geez that was weird. Maybe it's because as far as I remember it's the only Skyhold cutscene that happens at night? The game felt like it was fumbling for the light switch and accidentally hit the "floodlights" setting.
Justice is in the body of a corpse that has only decayed for a week, so Kristoff looks a bit... unhealthy and emaciated, but unless you really stare at him, he's not skeletal or rotting. And I think you'll find he relates to Cole. I was actually surprised at how he reminded me of him when he started to explore and question things and confide in my Warden. I remember when he told Kristoff's wife of his fate and she left in tears. He asks the Warden "Did I do the right thing?" and it was so endearing and reminded me of Cole!
And I do recommend checking out both DAA and DA2. DA2 actually has a lot of things that play a major part in DAI. Red lyrium, Corypheus, the cause of the war and how it built up to it, and many other things. Don't buy it if you don't want to, but check out some YouTube vids.
LOL yes! It was a black sky, grey grass and yellow trees. It freaked me out the first time, until all of a sudden everything returned to normal.
RE Justice: He sounds like an interesting character, going by what folks here say.
Justice was honestly my favorite character in Awakening, and he's introduced in my favorite area. He was kind of the first example of the player seeing a "good" spirit (not really counting Wynne's since that one's much more passive). I'd recommend finding Youtube vids of his conversations at least, for any fan of Dragon Age spirits. One of the gifts the Warden can give him is some kind of trinket made from lyrium (? my memory is fuzzy), which was touching, and his confusion at feeling other emotions for the first time upon meeting Kristoff's wife was so sad and interesting all at once. It made his ultimate fate in DA2 even more tragic to me ("dammit Anders..."). He and Cole really do start out in a similar place, albeit Justice was pulled into a mortal body against his will.
Guest_lady0635_*
Justice was honestly my favorite character in Awakening, and he's introduced in my favorite area. He was kind of the first example of the player seeing a "good" spirit (not really counting Wynne's since that one's much more passive). I'd recommend finding Youtube vids of his conversations at least, for any fan of Dragon Age spirits. One of the gifts the Warden can give him is some kind of trinket made from lyrium (? my memory is fuzzy), which was touching, and his confusion at feeling other emotions for the first time upon meeting Kristoff's wife was so sad and interesting all at once. It made his ultimate fate in DA2 even more tragic to me ("dammit Anders..."). He and Cole really do start out in a similar place, albeit Justice was pulled into a mortal body against his will.
It was a Lyrium Ring found in Kal'Hirol and the description is: "An unusual ring of unrefined lyrium, toxic to most living creatures". He also likes poetry inspired by the Fade and anything that helps him learn more about Kristoff and his wife, and Lyrium itself.
This is an attitude I've noticed a lot for Cole fans, especially when it comes to fanfic involving him. Maybe it's mostly a Tumblr attitude, but the fact that people seem to consider him mentally a child is what weirds them out if Cole is anything other than a plot device for verbally bringing the Inquisitor or their LIs fears into the open. Mostly because the average fanfic writer doesn't really "get" the nuances of a character as complicated to write as Cole, and tends to focus on a very narrow subset of topics to write about, I'm sure.
My fanfic writing is very narrow in scope primarily consisting of smallish scenes between my Inquisitor and his LI (Dorian) -- and no, they don't all have sex in them. I don't really have an interest in writing anything else. But, I did write Cole on one occasion and it was sort of as you describe, but as just a lead in to something else, so I don't consider that I used him as a plot device since he wasn't really required for the scene, just furthering background exposition (something that I do a lot of in my fics).
With that in mind, I found trying to write him to be extremely difficult and I really struggled to get a pattern down for his 'reading' to make it sound somewhat authentic. I went through several iterations before I was finally satisfied. I wonder if this is what keeps many fans from writing him at all, regardless of whether or not they have a good idea or concept. Patrick Weekes did a marvelous job in writing him, but he is quite unique and I think that makes it intimidating.
My go-to device for bringing the game into a reader's mind is to throw in certain phrases that the character or other NPCs might actually use which generally add to the atmosphere of overall dialog in the game: "very well," "true enough," Dorian's "Fine, have it your way," and other such things. But with Cole, particularly if you are creating from scratch an emotional reading, trying to bring it all together to sound cryptic, while still being intelligible, and also having a certain flow and pattern that make it sound Cole-like is difficult. For me, at least.
As an aside, I was quite pleased to hear my Inquisitor actually say "hi" in one dialog to Sera, which gave me permission to use the word in writing. I try to not bring in any sort of idioms or colloquialisms unless I've actually heard/seen them in the game; the one exception I've made is "okay," which I can't recall actually seeing or hearing anywhere.
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