38 réponses à ce sujet

[corey_russell]

Alesia, can you give me more information about how you did your tests? I wonder if race of the PC character has some bearing on this save issue problem. E.g., maybe Human saving mechanic is wonky, but maybe halfling saves work correctly, etc. My test was human (Keldorn), who was your test on?

[Alesia_BH]

Alesia, did you check the rolls? E.g., did you ever get the lowest roll? Maybe you got extremly unlucky and kept making your saving throw...is that how your characters make their saving throws, the game throws them a lucky rabbit foot? : )

 

No lucky rabbits foot- unless I'm playing Alora. 

 

I did see minimum rolls, yes.

 

Best,

 

A. 

 

Btw. My characters make their saves because I don't let them roll to save. I build redundancy into my defensive strategy. 

 

Arkona, for example, has save v spells of -5 and Rage, but she still keeps Potions of Invulnerability, Potions of Stone Form, Potions of Freedom, Potions of Clarity, and Potions of Magic Shieldng around at all times. She also keeps Dragonslayer, Arvoreen and Harmony at the ready. I'm unfond of chance.

[Alesia_BH]

Alesia, can you give me more information about how you did your tests?

 

I can't provide too much information, because the test took place sometime ago and I don't recall all the details.

 

I used my F/M, Arcadia. Arcadia is a half-elf. I don't recall the exact manner of save reduction (ie- equipped items, active spells, etc). 

 

As a reminder, we still can't rule out the possibility that my sample size was inadequate. Given the infrequency of the events, larges samples would be needed to conduct statistically valid comparisons across installs. 100 trials may not be enough. We have no basis to reject the null hypothesis of no difference at this time. 

 

Can you specify you test conditions? If you do, I can try to replicate under the exact same conditions.

 

Best,

 

A.

[corey_russell]

I've never used the potion of stone form, am unfond to the DEX penalty. I do love potions of invulnerability though, and buy every one in the game if I have the funds for it. In my installs, I tend to use the potions of invulnerability against mind flayers, Irenicus, and Melissan.

[corey_russell]

Alesia_BH said...

Can you specify you test conditions? If you do, I can try to replicate under the exact same conditions.

 

Sure. These are my conditions:

1) Pocket Plane - my install is vanilla SoA and ToB, with official ToB patch, no mods.

2) Keldorn was the target - not sure on his level. I removed any equipment that had magic resistance.

3) I used +2 protection ring, ring of gaxx, helmet of defense, and/or +1 protection ring and would add/remove them depending on what I wanted his save vs. spells to be.

4) If Gaxx was equipped, was necessary to lower magic resist 1 time 1st (else his magic resistance could kick in)

5) Using 5 mages, I cast blindness manually on him, one after another. Once out of blindnesses, rest and repeat until I had either a failure or 75 casts.

[corey_russell]

Alesia_BH wrote...

As a reminder, we still can't rule out the possibility that my sample size was inadequate.

 

I agree with that. Perhaps if you do the test same way I did, perhaps you can replicate.

[Alesia_BH]

I've never used the potion of stone form, am unfond to the DEX penalty. I do love potions of invulnerability though, and buy every one in the game if I have the funds for it. In my installs, I tend to use the potions of invulnerability against mind flayers, Irenicus, and Melissan.

 

Understood. I use Potions of Invulnerability to counter Malison. In the alternative, I use them to get my saves out of the danger zone in keep fights early in the adventure when base saves may be inadequate.

 

Potions of Stone Form can be a cheaper means of achieving that same ends, in some circumstance.

 

Arkona, for example, has a save v death of -2. Suppose she were tagged with Malison in a minor fight and then heard an Evocation incantation (which could mean Stinking Cloud). Suppose further that she is out of Rages, that she lacks the Greenstone Amulet, that RoAC II has been consumed, and that the Spear of the Unicorn is inaccessible. What then? A Potion of Magic Shielding would be overkill, clearly. A Potion of Invulnerability would, like wise, be overkill. A Potion of Stone Form would be the right call. They're keep and they're fairly plentiful.

 

The dex penalty can be offset by pairing Potion of Stone Form with Potions of Mind Focusing.

 

Best,

 

A.

 

Btw. Arkona has used Potions of Stone Form exactly zero times inner adventure, but she still has a dozen of them on hand in case see encounters situations where they might be needed. My characters always have fully loaded potion bags.

[Alesia_BH]

I agree with that. Perhaps if you do the test same way I did, perhaps you can replicate.

 

Right. We need identical conditions and large sample sizes. 

 

I'll try to get on that.

 

Best,

 

A.

[corey_russell]

Alesia_BH wrote...

The dex penalty can be offset by pairing Potion of Stone Form with Potions of Mind Focusing.

 

True enough. Note though, I'm only really tempted to use the stone form in BG 1 where all my characters (even shorties) have less than perfect saves. However in my install I only have 4 potions of genius and 4 potions of mind focusing available before chapter 5. If I play with NPCs, I almost always have to use those potions so they can scribe spells successfully. In addition, my potions of thievery don't stack in EasyTutu, and also have to use the mind focusing to increase pick-pocket skill (I prefer to pick-pocket Dushai for her free-action ring, rather than kill her, it's not like she did anything wrong...). Thus none left over to counter the side effect of the stone form.

 

I certainly could implement your tip in my BG 2 install though.

[corey_russell]

Right. We need identical conditions and large sample sizes. 

 

I'll try to get on that.

 

Best,

 

A.

Did you change your mind? Or have you replicated GrimJim's and mine's findings, and just haven't had time to post your results?

[Alesia_BH]

Did you change your mind? Or have you replicated GrimJim's and mine's findings, and just haven't had time to post your results?

 

 

I just haven't gotten around to it yet. 

 

Will do.

 

Best,

 

A.

[corey_russell]

I just haven't gotten around to it yet. 

 

Will do.

 

Best,

 

A.

No problem.

[corey_russell]

Interesting.  Did you confirm in NI that there is definitely no save penalty associated with the aura?

 

I don't think this is a mod issue - I played with vanilla for a long time and saw this type of problem a number of times.  However, I suspect you may not be able to recreate what is a sporadic problem with this type of test.  Not only is it a rare occurrence, but I think it's associated with the game not correctly adding up all save bonuses.  I'm sure you've all seen instances where behaviour is different depending on the order in which items are equipped (things like haste and magic resistance are regularly affected by this) and I think the saves issues is akin to this where the game 'loses track' of an item briefly.  That might be due to inventory changes or possibly just the nature of an attack / opponent.

Just thought of something! A lich is presumably a necromancer - which means there would be a save penalty of -2 whenever he casts spells of the necromancy school (which is most them). So when facing liches, we need to take this into account if trying to use saves as our main approach.

[Grond0]

Just thought of something! A lich is presumably a necromancer - which means there would be a save penalty of -2 whenever he casts spells of the necromancy school (which is most them). So when facing liches, we need to take this into account if trying to use saves as our main approach.

I think it depends upon mod setup, but the last time I was caught like this was against symbol stun, i.e. the lich was classed as a conjurer.